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“DAWT DIT DEET”


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Basically Buzzed
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2022 7:59 am    Post subject: “DAWT DIT DEET” Reply with quote

(M)essay Mondays

Over the years, I’ve written these essays of sorts ranging from why I warmup in a practice mute to how to use my 8/4 method to - most recently - why over-improving our weaknesses may not be the best way forward.

I write these essays with the hope of creating clarity along with dialogue on the topics I’ve chosen to write about.

Inevitably - through either my not being a professional writer or a willful misreading of what I’ve written - the whole thing usually turns into a beautiful mess in the comments. Hence me naming this series going forward - (M)essay Mondays.

So - let’s just jump right back into the mess here with:

“DAWT DIT DEET”
From “Note Yeti” to “Articulation Mullet” to Entering the Professional Workforce.

A.K.A. - “Keep Your Grubby Little ‘Daws’ Outta My Cookie Jar”

People ask all the time - “What is one thing you wish you knew earlier in your career”?

Stop the note with the tongue.

It’s the one thing that most of us brass players were taught at the earliest stages of development NOT to do. But, It’s one of the few things that - when executed correctly - will make a huge difference in sonic energy, clarity of attack and definition of the full note.

Let’s break this down a bit. First off - let’s start with the front of the note. Most of us are taught to start the note with some version of “Tu”. I mean - it’s in the Arban’s book so it must be correct - right? Well - Arban was French and “Tu” is actually pronounced a little more like “Dēw” or even and combination of “Th” with “Du” - with the tongue very far forward and nearly between the teeth - “Dthēw”

Though we need to have access to as many types of articulations as possible, the “Tu” attack is too thin for most everyday needs. It allows for an uncontrolled explosion of sound out of the instrument. If we try to attack loudly with a “Tu” - it resembles spitting and it’s very easy for the resulting front to be jagged, out of control and unattractive. The “Dthēw” attack requires the tongue to be more spread across the teeth and it encourages more of the lip surface to vibrate. The “Dthēw” attack requires compression and a commitment from the player - thus it’s thicker sounding and a more solid and controlled attack. In short - by using a “Dthēw” attack, we are gaining more control in an environment where many things can seem out of control.

Now that we’ve got the fronts all sorted out, we’d do well to not leave these notes as “Mullets” - a pleasing front with a free-for-all party in the back!

How do we prevent “Note Mullets”? We trim up and define the back end of the notes.

How do we define the back end of the notes? We abruptly stop the air.

How do we abruptly stop the air? We have two choices - stopping the air in the throat (glottis) or stopping the air with the tongue. Stopping the air with the tongue is the preferred method as stopping the air with the glottis can eventually produce some very unattractive and audible sound production habits. Stopping the air with the tongue shortens the distance between the lips and the point of air stoppage - thus creating less room for error… and more control.

If you’ve read this far - you may still be thinking to yourself - “My teachers always told me to never stop the sound with my tongue”. What your (our) teachers are trying to avoid is a sound that phonetically sounds like this: “tahyeeeeet” - where the back of the note is pushed. That pushed sound at the end of the note is cause by a speeding up of the air… caused by a slow tongue. If you actually say “taaaaaaaahyeeeeeeeeeet” very slowly - you’ll feel how the slower the tongue moves upward, the more compressed and faster the air moves - thus creating a crescendo and even some movement of pitch upwards at the end of the note.

Even if we try to shorten the note - if we stick with “taheet” or “daheet” - we’re still left with a low tongue at the front/middle of the note with the tongue coming up at the end and still compressing the air!

So - how do we stop the note with the tongue without pushing the sound at the end?

Look to the front of the note again. “Dthēw”

It’s not “Daw” or “Dthēaaww” - it’s “Dthēw”

The tongue doesn’t actually drop that far. It stays forward and high in the mouth. There’s actually very little movement involved if we repeatedly say “Dthēw Dthēw Dthēw” - think Star Wars laser gun - “Pew Pew Pew” but with the Dth front - “Dthēw Dthēw Dthēw”

If we keep the tongue high and forward - regardless of register - we can start and stop the note with no discernible acceleration of air at the end.

BONUS - it sorts out the middle of the note!

Getting used to playing with a higher and more forward tongue will take some getting used to - but the end results are notes that are much more:

•STABILIZED - the tongue is barely moving.
•ENERGIZED - the tongue has sped up the air.
•INTENSE - air speed is held at the same speed from note to note as the tongue barely moves.
•COMPACT - less movement allows for greater control of intonation and hitting the note down the center. Remember - “Small is Big, Big is Sh*t”!
•DEFINED - same front/same back. No matter the length, the note should looks like this: [——]

EXTRA BONUS - When we move the tongue higher and more forward, it sorts out our double tongue as well. Instead of “Daw Gaw Daw Gaw” it turns into “Dthēw Kee Dthēw Kee”. Less movement = more speed with sharper and clearer attacks and more stabilized notes.

Who would’ve thought that by giving your articulations a “haircut” you’re actually being a rebel and doing what your teachers told you not to do!

Give it a go and let me know what you think - just don’t blame me when your mullet-wearing friends won’t talk to you anymore because you’ve gone all uptight corporate on them. It’s ok - you can still buy the dirt bike and leather coat you Rebel, you!
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2022 8:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The tongue doe not "compress" the air. Nor does air speed over the tongue have any influence on pitch. That is just a perpetual myth among trumpet players.

The pitch may go sharp because some loose control of the aperture tension. Allowing, uncontrollably, for the lip tension to increase a bit as they shove the tongue forward to stop the note.

There is a distinct advantage for immediacy of attack. It need not be course or harsh. That depends on the pressure control variant by the exhalation effort.

If one plays rapid staccato notes the notes ARE being stopped with the tongue. Cleanly and in tune. This can be transferred over to simply not repeating the note for an abrupt clean tongue release. So stopping the note with the tongue should not be discouraged for CERTAIN musical context or style.
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Basically Buzzed
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2022 8:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kalijah wrote:
The tongue doe not "compress" the air. Nor does air speed over the tongue have any influence on pitch. That is just a perpetual myth among trumpet players.

The pitch may go sharp because some loose control of the aperture tension. Allowing, uncontrollably, for the lip tension to increase a bit as they shove the tongue forward to stop the note.

There is a distinct advantage for immediacy of attack. It need not be course or harsh. That depends on the pressure control variant by the exhalation effort.

If one plays rapid staccato notes the notes ARE being stopped with the tongue. Cleanly and in tune. This can be transferred over to simply not repeating the note for an abrupt clean tongue release. So stopping the note with the tongue should not be discouraged for CERTAIN musical context or style.


Thanks for taking a read and commenting, Darryl.

If one is “hissing” the notes out - the air is most definitely compressed. I probably could have been more clear - but when the tongue rises from a lowered position, in beginners - usually the jaw does as well… and in turn the lips pinch - thus going sharp.

Thanks again for reading!
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2022 8:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
If one is “hissing” the notes out - the air is most definitely compressed.


"Narrowed" does not mean "compressed". When the air is flowing, a high degree of narrowing of the flow path drastically reduces the compression of the air due to viscous flow losses and turbulence.

The air does not have more energy simply because the path is narrower, it actually has much less.

Quote:
I probably could have been more clear - but when the tongue rises from a lowered position, in beginners - usually the jaw does as well… and in turn the lips pinch - thus going sharp.


Exactly.
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Basically Buzzed
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2022 9:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kalijah wrote:
Quote:
If one is “hissing” the notes out - the air is most definitely compressed.


"Narrowed" does not mean "compressed". When the air is flowing, a high degree of narrowing of the flow path drastically reduces the compression of the air due to viscous flow losses and turbulence.

The air does not have more energy simply because the path is narrower, it actually has much less.

Quote:
I probably could have been more clear - but when the tongue rises from a lowered position, in beginners - usually the jaw does as well… and in turn the lips pinch - thus going sharp.


Exactly.



What we’re looking for is not an OVER-compression of the air. That, in fact, would diminish its energy. We’re looking for “Maximum Allowable Energy” in both sound and articulations - which for many people will mean raising the tongue and moving it forward. Definitely a new concept to a lot of players.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2022 9:40 am    Post subject: Re: “DAWT DIT DEET” Reply with quote

Basically Buzzed wrote:
...
•DEFINED - same front/same back. No matter the length, the note should looks like this: [——]
...
Give it a go and let me know what you think ...

------------------------------
thoughts -

Your instructions seem to concentrate on specific mechanical actions to achieve a particular type of sound production. But it is not clear what quality of sound production that is.
edit: I just noticed the DEFINED image .

I recall the image used to illustrate a simple long tone as a 'fat arrow, with the point at the termination' - start cleanly with full desired loudness, maintain the loudness, and then reduce/taper loudness at the end.

Other sound production qualities include effects such as very quiet entrances, sharp hard entrances, long fading termination, abrupt termination, etc.

I believe the 'first thing' is to define the aspects of the desired sound quality, and to then consider the physical/mechanical actions that can be used to achieve it. The use of a sound 'picture' (such as the arrow I mentioned earlier) might to useful to convey/describe sound quality.
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2022 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
What we’re looking for is not an OVER-compression of the air.


I think you are confused about what "compression" means.

Quote:
That, in fact, would diminish its energy.


Energy and compression are proportional. They rise or fall together.

Quote:
We’re looking for “Maximum Allowable Energy” in both sound and articulations - which for many people will mean raising the tongue and moving it forward.


The highest pressure available at any instant is the pressure of the air coming from the lungs. We can vary that pressure by varying the exhalation effort. (That is how we play at various dynamics)

Raising the tongue will NEVER increase the energy, pressure, or air compression above what the lung is supplying at that instant. Attempting to do so by narrowing the air path before the aperture will only introduce loss of the air energy. The maximum energy bearing on the aperture is with a more open oral space, not a "hissing" posture.
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Basically Buzzed
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2022 10:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kalijah wrote:
Quote:
What we’re looking for is not an OVER-compression of the air.


I think you are confused about what "compression" means.

Quote:
That, in fact, would diminish its energy.


Energy and compression are proportional. They rise or fall together.

Quote:
We’re looking for “Maximum Allowable Energy” in both sound and articulations - which for many people will mean raising the tongue and moving it forward.


The highest pressure available at any instant is the pressure of the air coming from the lungs. We can vary that pressure by varying the exhalation effort. (That is how we play at various dynamics)

Raising the tongue will NEVER increase the energy, pressure, or air compression above what the lung is supplying at that instant. Attempting to do so by narrowing the air path before the aperture will only introduce loss of the air energy. The maximum energy bearing on the aperture is with a more open oral space, not a "hissing" posture.



We will just disagree on all of this.

The inferred points of all of my essays is to spur some thought - which I believe I’ve done that.

That said - no one essay or post will ever adequately nor completely address every single issue.

At this point I can only suggest you write your own thoughts down in essay form for public consumption.

Thank you and have a great day!
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2022 10:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
We will just disagree on all of this.
I don't disagree with the basic actions described. But the things you have HEARD regarding "compression" and "air speed" etc, are just things trumpet players say. It is just trumpet-speak. I challenge you to lean some actual air mechanics. Then we could agree completely.
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Basically Buzzed
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2022 11:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kalijah wrote:
Quote:
We will just disagree on all of this.
I don't disagree with the basic actions described. But the things you have HEARD regarding "compression" and "air speed" etc, are just things trumpet players say. It is just trumpet-speak. I challenge you to lean some actual air mechanics. Then we could agree completely.


Thanks for joining in the “Mess”. You’re gonna love my next essay!
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2022 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This original post is very good and clear. I’m not sure if I actually this before, or if the same gist I found somewhere else, but I’ve focusing on doing all the things suggested exactly as suggested. I might be retiring from my day job in maybe a year and want to have my classical chops back in order when I do.
For the last many years I’ve been mainly playing “lead” type things and that has taken its toll on my basics of articulation and finesse etc. I practice a good amount every day, and I have doing mainly “maintenance” things. Now I am actually getting some real quality back by focusing exactly as described above. Like I said, if this essay has been around a while, I maybe started it several months ago. If not, it’s the same basic info. Here it is described about perfectly though.

Thanks Chris, from one Michigander to another:)
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2022 3:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Once again, Darryl makes a statement. He should be saying raising the tongue or arching it does not raise the pitch, "for him." Methods very from person to person. That's the problem with these discussions. The raising of tongue position can raise the pitch independent of aperture. Making a blanket statement does not work. There are many ways to do things.
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Basically Buzzed
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2022 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Richard III wrote:
Once again, Darryl makes a statement. He should be saying raising the tongue or arching it does not raise the pitch, "for him." Methods very from person to person. That's the problem with these discussions. The raising of tongue position can raise the pitch independent of aperture. Making a blanket statement does not work. There are many ways to do things.


Which is why I take the time to write these thoughts. These are my experiences and the experiences of enough of the people that I’ve taught and coached through the years.

It’s just a perspective - that may or may not resonate with everyone.

Thanks for taking the time to read and comment, Richard.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2022 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is incredibly helpful. Thank you for sharing it. For things like this, if you ever have the energy to turn them into short videos, that helps the doubters and the quibblers see and hear exactly what you are talking about. I'm working with my kids on trumpet, and articulation is definitely a core challenge starting out, and also very hard to explain to beginners.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2022 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HaveTrumpetWillTravel wrote:
This is incredibly helpful. Thank you for sharing it. For things like this, if you ever have the energy to turn them into short videos, that helps the doubters and the quibblers see and hear exactly what you are talking about. I'm working with my kids on trumpet, and articulation is definitely a core challenge starting out, and also very hard to explain to beginners.


Thank you, HaveTrumpetWillTravel. I appreciate you taking the time to read this and comment.

There will be a video follow up to this. I’m currently finishing recording Phil Collins’ “Mini Etudes” - 26 more to go… Then back to these concepts.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2022 5:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chris,

Thanks SO much for this. I have been teaching the value of tonguing the end of the note for years. After it taking years for me to figure out that this is actually acceptable. Getting opportunities to sit next to Hagstrom in lessons and sit behind Herseth concert after concert gave huge hints as this was the only way I could get close to the clarity of articulation. The pedagogical value of this realization, and some support from players you trust, is transforming to ones playing. I believe we are on the precipice of a pedagogical enlightenment. However, it needs to make it into our college techniques courses so we don't confuse another generation of young trumpet tooters! Many of our pedagogical practices come from good intentions. However, the answers require more depth and time to sort out, along with an ear that can and image of sound to lead the process. This approach to articulation has been an absolute game changer.

Most sincerely,
Michael Arndt
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2022 6:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Michael Arndt wrote:
... as this was the only way I could get close to the clarity of articulation. The pedagogical value of this realization, and some support from players you trust, is transforming to ones playing. I believe we are on the precipice of a pedagogical enlightenment. However, it needs to make it into our college techniques courses so we don't confuse another generation of young trumpet tooters! Many of our pedagogical practices come from good intentions. However, the answers require more depth and time to sort out, along with an ear that can and image of sound to lead the process. This approach to articulation has been an absolute game changer. ...

-----------------------
Again, first establish the goal-of-the-moment - 'clarity of articulation' perhaps, and THEN the method to achieve it.
If someone latches onto 'a method' as their always-used technique, it might be completely inappropriate in some settings.
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PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
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Basically Buzzed
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2022 8:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Michael Arndt wrote:
Chris,

Thanks SO much for this. I have been teaching the value of tonguing the end of the note for years. After it taking years for me to figure out that this is actually acceptable. Getting opportunities to sit next to Hagstrom in lessons and sit behind Herseth concert after concert gave huge hints as this was the only way I could get close to the clarity of articulation. The pedagogical value of this realization, and some support from players you trust, is transforming to ones playing. I believe we are on the precipice of a pedagogical enlightenment. However, it needs to make it into our college techniques courses so we don't confuse another generation of young trumpet tooters! Many of our pedagogical practices come from good intentions. However, the answers require more depth and time to sort out, along with an ear that can and image of sound to lead the process. This approach to articulation has been an absolute game changer.

Most sincerely,
Michael Arndt


Thank you for taking the time to read this and comment. I appreciate it!
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2022 11:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Richard III wrote:
Once again, Darryl makes a statement. He should be saying raising the tongue or arching it does not raise the pitch, "for him." Methods very from person to person.

If I understand him correctly, Darryl's issue is mostly with the terminology. Think of it like the tomato fruit/vegetable discussion: telling someone it's technically a fruit doesn't mean you're saying they cannot cook, yet some misinterpret that as an insult nonetheless.

That being said, the world seems largely ok with having both a culinary and a botanical definition for tomato's...maybe the same could be applied to the misuse of physics by trumpet players.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2022 4:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
If I understand him correctly, Darryl's issue is mostly with the terminology. Think of it like the tomato fruit/vegetable discussion: telling someone it's technically a fruit doesn't mean you're saying they cannot cook, yet some misinterpret that as an insult, nonetheless.


There is a bit more to it than that. Perhaps we could discuss "obligatory terminology" separately.

Regarding the original Post by Christopher Smith:

There is a great article written by Jay Friedman, trombonist about "immediacy" of attacks. I will try to find it.

I think what you are trying to convey is that attempting to attack the tones with the tongue through the teeth or very far forward or aggressive position yields a less than desirable sound, especially if done with aggressive air pressure on the attack. I certainly agree with that but, as a jazz player, NOTHING is off the table for creative effects.

I DO prefer the attack, to be a bit more toward the "D" posture for general or "refined" playing. (Somewhat that you are attempting to describe). There is no penalty to immediacy of the note for this posture, it sounds fantastic, and it does not disturb or interact with the lip posture in a negative way. Likewise, a tongued release can be executed with the same tongue contact position. To use the overly forward "Tee " position for release ends up with a Daaa-eet envelope. The end of this encouraging a "chewing" action that disturbs the embouchure such that the jaw and lips support a rise in pitch.

Consider a "Doit", where the end of the note does indeed intentionally rise a partial or more as an effect. This is an extreme example of such.

I actually knew a player who did EVERY release with tongue and had a rise in pitch on every one. Student players also do this often.

But to perform a clean tongue release that does NOT change in pitch is simply a matter of holding the embouchure posture steady through the note. And using a tongue posture that encourages that.


Last edited by kalijah on Tue Feb 08, 2022 8:06 am; edited 1 time in total
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