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steve0930
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2021 11:48 pm    Post subject: Question on Embouchure Reply with quote

Hello Players.
On another topic someone (thanks again Chapahi) mentioned Cat Anderson's whisper G method -top and bottom teeth aligned, touching and soft g for 20 minutes a day.

I have been doing this for a week, indirectly (so not conscious change to my set up) and I have liked how it seems to effect my playing. I am tonguing direct on lips (TOL - thanks to Jeff Smiley's Balanced Embouchure)

For me intuitively this feels like a good direction to be going in - by moving the teeth closer together and more aligned (I assume I am cos I am not consciously changing anything - just doing the exercises) I am giving more support to the lips / getting the whole embouchure to be working in "reed mode." with TOL ensuring my set up does not get too closed down or tight.

Any comments because 99% of people reading this know more about mastering the trumpet than your's truly. Someone might reply "you are closing down your oral cavity - this is absolutely not the direction to go in Steve and will end in tears!"

cheers and stay safe Steve

PS I was explaining this to my No 1 supporter as we walked to the open air Helsinki swimming pool last night - first day open this year - life getting back to normal I hope..
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abontrumpet
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 12:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lots to unpack here.

You mention mastering the trumpet. If that is truly a goal, then I suggest you: get off this forum, get a private teacher, and listen to amazing trumpeters and musicians.

You mention whisper G, top bottom teeth aligned, touching, tonguing direct on lips, balanced embouchure, reed mode. Those things should occupy about 1%-10% of your daily trumpet brain power while 90% should be occupied by "how do I want it to sound, how does it sound?" If it sounds bad, nobody cares how open or closed your oral cavity is. If your articulation is bad, nobody cares that you're TOL (a method I don't even see as feasible for the majority of players). I suspect the 1% is occupying 90% of your brain power.

If you listen to the story of great players, it never goes "I focused a lot on my embouchure and my oral cavity and then became great." The story is "there was always a lot of music on in my home and then I tried to make beautiful sounds and great music." Yes, there is work involved in getting from point A to point B, but not having a Point B is highly detrimental and Point B is often closer than we think.

Any teaching method BE, TOL, whisper G, etc is a method that at one point required a teacher. They are not scientific texts. The only method that can be accurately portrayed through the internet is "listen to great players, try to sound like great players, record yourself, try again."

Ok, rant over. To address your concerns specifically: yes, the exercises we play and the quality with which we play them will have subconscious effects on our set up and perhaps move us in the right direction. TOL is ultimately unsustainable unless you're only doing it in that one context. Oral cavity adjustment is only in service of sound, I think you're over thinking that (and everything). Why spend 20 minutes whispering a G? I'll never know. Great perhaps for endurance prep for a taxing recital but is it really a great developmental tool for the amateur, I think not. A masterful teacher knows when to employ certain methods, which is what you need. Currently you're employing methods without context.

Good luck!
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 5:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

abontrumpet wrote:
... Those things should occupy about 1%-10% of your daily trumpet brain power while 90% should be occupied by "how do I want it to sound, how does it sound?"
...
The story is "there was always a lot of music on in my home and then I tried to make beautiful sounds and great music." Yes, there is work involved in getting from point A to point B, but not having a Point B is highly detrimental and Point B is often closer than we think. ...

-------------------------------------------------------
The difficult part is learning 'what' and 'how' to DO to achieve the desired sound.

The basics of playing are 'physical actions' that are not intuitive or 'natural' (for most people).

Regardless of how a player gets to the point of making the desired sound, it is beneficial to remember (learn) how it was done so it can be repeated and made habitual.
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Mike Prestage
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 6:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

abontrumpet, I'll offer an alternate perspective on the points you've made with no criticism intended. The frequent focus on powerful musical influences and the innate drive to make beautiful sounds in interviews of the greats might just reflect that these things are common factors, without which nobody has any chance of reaching their level. It's also hardly uncommon for world class players to relate insights into the physical details of playing which they believe to have been important to their success. This is perhaps the all-time classic example and coincidentally is directly relevant to this thread: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZIQCRVga3Y

I'm pretty convinced that the trumpet is an especially problematic instrument in terms of the potential for things to develop in a way that will ultimately limit the player, even with highly motivated students in contexts that are conducive to creating accomplished musicians. When we look at the known elements of a trumpet legend's backstory that clearly helped, we should maybe also think about what was left to chance but, in their particular case, worked out fine anyway. I'm interested in the physical details of playing because I'm hoping to leave less to chance when I'm putting in the hours pursuing the sound.


Steve, I'm glad you appreciated the link to Jon Ruff's channel and I think the video you mentioned in the other thread is a great example of how to benefit from paying a certain amount of attention to what's physically happening while practicing. To be brutally honest though, I don't think your plan for the next five days is compatible with the message of the video. I'd take his 'million times' comment more as a general point about anything we might choose to practice to develop the fundamentals. What really stands out to me in that video is the emphasis on discovery and you're much more likely to make valuable discoveries if you're as immersed as you can possibly be and can hear your sound perfectly.

Again being honest, your comments in this thread suggest that at the moment you don't have enough clarity about the physical concepts you mention to gain anything from them. I'm not familiar with either the Cat Anderson method or Jeff Smiley's teachings in any detail but I suspect the Cat jaw/teeth setting and TOL are pretty much incompatible. (I personally play with a lot of lip to tongue contact together with a relatively open jaw.) If you've already had some exposure to BE and it's seemed beneficial, you could gain a lot from really immersing yourself in it for at least a few months. If you need clarification of anything, there's a BE forum on here and Jeff Smiley himself contributes (username is trumpetteacher1), plus I imagine he does Skype lessons if you're looking for a teacher.

Mike
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Vin DiBona
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 6:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wonder how those of us who have been playing at a good pro level for more than 50 years ever achieved what we did without the wonders of the internet experts? (Yes, sarcasm).
We sat in a room with a teacher and listened to great players. Then we tried to emulate what we learned.
No embouchure tricks. No special techniques. Just plain hard work. We figured it out on our own.
People would ask Herseth how he did what he did and his simple answer was to go practice and figure it out.
There is just too much over analysis and all that leads is to confusion.
Abontrumpet had the right answer.
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 6:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vin DiBona wrote:
...
Just plain hard work. We figured it out on our own.
People would ask Herseth how he did what he did and his simple answer was to go practice and figure it out. ...

-----------------------------------
Works well for some people, not so well for others.

In order to learn, some 'teaching' has to occur - if you can do-it-yourself, then great. But many people require outside help, and that can be from a live teacher, youtube, written, etc.
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omelet
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 7:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So it sounds like some people think that part of the talent required to be good at trumpet is to be able to figure out the technique by yourself? Why should that be a necessary component? It isn't for virtually any other skill I can think of.
Oh, and the "work hard" aspect. If you don't get it, I guess you didn't work hard enough!
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abontrumpet
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 7:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike Prestage wrote:
abontrumpet, I'll offer an alternate perspective on the points you've made with no criticism intended.

None taken.
Mike Prestage wrote:
The frequent focus on powerful musical influences and the innate drive to make beautiful sounds in interviews of the greats might just reflect that these things are common factors, without which nobody has any chance of reaching their level.

This is the crux and point of my comment; it is explicitly said. In his question, the concept of a beautiful sound or how these physical things effected the sound was never brought up.
Mike Prestage wrote:
I'm pretty convinced that the trumpet is an especially problematic instrument in terms of the potential for things to develop in a way that will ultimately limit the player, even with highly motivated students in contexts that are conducive to creating accomplished musicians.

Another major point to my post, you essentially can't do it without a teacher/guide. For almost all, trumpet cannot be self-taught if mastery is the goal.

It seems we completely agree! Unless I missed something
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royjohn
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 8:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you really want to know about embouchure, go to [url]wilktone.com[/url] and read all ten parts of his series "Embouchure 101."From that 30 minutes of reading you have a good chance of typing your embouchure correctly and determining your correct embouchure motion. If you were to have questions after that, you could resolve them in a lesson or two with a Reinhardt chop doc.
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 8:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

abontrumpet wrote:
...
I stick 100% to my original post, the only method that can reasonably be written in a book and transferred to a student 100% intact to a student is: listen to great players, try to sound like great players, record yourself, try again.

------------------------------------
While that instruction might be 'technically correct', it is not helpful for many people.

The issue of "try to sound like" usually involves 'what do I DO to make that happen?' - just 'wishing it would happen' is not enough.
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Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
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Mike Prestage
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 9:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Double post deleted

Last edited by Mike Prestage on Wed Jun 02, 2021 10:37 am; edited 1 time in total
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Mike Prestage
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vin DiBona wrote:
I wonder how those of us who have been playing at a good pro level for more than 50 years ever achieved what we did without the wonders of the internet experts?

FWIW I don't consider myself an 'expert', on the internet or otherwise - I was just contributing to a discussion. The only thing in my post which I could see anyone finding remotely wondrous is the linked Miles interview.

Vin DiBona wrote:
(Yes, sarcasm).

Really? I'd never have guessed.

abontrumpet wrote:

It seems we completely agree! Unless I missed something

I'm sure we do agree on more than we disagree. I suspect I have more sympathy for Steve's preoccupation with the physical nuts and bolts than you do though, so I was riffing on your points from that perspective.

Mike
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Vin DiBona
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do hope you folks saw "we sat in a room with a teacher".
I had two great teachers. They gave me the way(s) to accomplish what I needed to do. I took their teachings worked on them.
Some of you need to get thicker skin. I made no direct comment about anyone in particular.
There are some very knowledgeable folks here. It is easy to see who they are and who read it somewhere.
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Mike Prestage
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vin DiBona wrote:

Some of you need to get thicker skin.

I'm the only person who's been at all defensive in response to you so I can only assume you now are referring to me in particular. If your previous post wasn't intended to label me an 'internet expert' then I apologise for the misunderstanding. If it was, then I can state categorically that I wasn't making any attempt to appear authoritative and it's disconcerting to think that it could be perceived that way. I was making a contribution in good faith from my perspective as a moderately accomplished player who's had some opportunities to learn from, and sometimes play with, people who are the real deal. If my wanting to clarify this means I have a 'thin skin' then guilty as charged!

Mike
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Vin DiBona
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, Mike. Not directed at you. Not at anyone in particular, either.
Many consummate pros will not post much here. One told me the reason they don't is they are either playing, teaching, or practicing and have little time for commentary.
I have a friend who is a well known world class lead player. He does occasionally post here but does not offer advice on players' problems.
The issue I often see is what advice is a young person or very inexperienced player to believe?
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abontrumpet
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 11:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JayKosta wrote:
abontrumpet wrote:
...
I stick 100% to my original post, the only method that can reasonably be written in a book and transferred to a student 100% intact to a student is: listen to great players, try to sound like great players, record yourself, try again.

------------------------------------
While that instruction might be 'technically correct', it is not helpful for many people.

The issue of "try to sound like" usually involves 'what do I DO to make that happen?' - just 'wishing it would happen' is not enough.


I think you're missing the point of what I'm saying. It's 2-fold:

1. That "what do I DO to make it sound that way" puts the sound/music as the goal. Too many people, OP probably included, do all of the "exercises" and just play with the goal of playing those exercises close enough. There needs to be a damn good musician/trumpeter in your head if you want to get close to mastery. A major part of the teacher's role is to "open the ears" of the student so that their inner trumpeter/musician can get better quicker.

2. To reiterate, without a teacher, this is the only instruction that can be followed without a teacher. The rest of everything we do requires a great teacher including all of the things that the OP is attempting to do; if mastery is the goal, you need a master.

JayKosta wrote:

The difficult part is learning 'what' and 'how' to DO to achieve the desired sound.

The basics of playing are 'physical actions' that are not intuitive or 'natural' (for most people).

Regardless of how a player gets to the point of making the desired sound, it is beneficial to remember (learn) how it was done so it can be repeated and made habitual.


Just as a point of reference, I disagree with this quite a bit. But that's from my experience taking lessons from some of the best teachers/players the world has to offer and my experience as a teacher/pro. It's less "how to do it" and more "what to listen for."
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Mike Prestage
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2021 2:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vin DiBona wrote:
No, Mike. Not directed at you. Not at anyone in particular, either.
Many consummate pros will not post much here. One told me the reason they don't is they are either playing, teaching, or practicing and have little time for commentary.
I have a friend who is a well known world class lead player. He does occasionally post here but does not offer advice on players' problems.
The issue I often see is what advice is a young person or very inexperienced player to believe?
R. Tomasek

That's good to know, thanks.

I'd really appreciate it if more seasoned professionals started contributing regularly but I can imagine it being a bit of a thankless task so all the more respect to those of you that do.

I'm more inclined to come at that issue from the opposite direction and see it as part of the essential nature of an open discussion forum. IMO, when considering whether or not this site could ever genuinely help anyone, this limitation is 'priced in'.

Mike
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Bethmike
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2021 4:39 am    Post subject: question on embouchure Reply with quote

To the OP, I find the Cat Anderson whisper G to be very effective in improving a flabby embouchure. Don't over do it. When I start to feel "how" I am controlling my muscles and which muscles I am controlling (maybe 5 minutes in??) I do a few minutes more. Then I am done. Do it regularly, maybe first this in the AM. It is obviously very quiet, so you won't wake anyone. After a few sessions you will find that you recognize those muscles as you play. It is a great feeling!

For those of us that are very unathletic, "finding" a muscle and learning how to activate it and control it is the first task. Then learning to use it properly follows. Those of you who are athletic will not even understand this paragraph. I know, I have an incredibly athletically gifted brother and we we have this conversation periodically.
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steve0930
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2021 5:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello once again

BethMike - just saw your post before I pressed "submit" - very hands on and specific advice - perfect . thanks


Thanks for all the contributions and I like being challenged - how else are we going to reach our potential?

You need a Masterful Teacher - I agree with Abontrumpet 100% - the question is Who? Jeanne Pocius says her aim is to get her student to the position where he or she is the best candidate for this role.

(Incidentally Abontrumpet on another topic a couple of days ago you helped someone with a Charlie Porter link - I had a 1 hour zoom lesson with Charlie a month ago - another thing we agree on - He's a top Guy!)

Mike, I thought this was superb writing:
Quote:
I'm pretty convinced that the trumpet is an especially problematic instrument in terms of the potential for things to develop in a way that will ultimately limit the player, even with highly motivated students in contexts that are conducive to creating accomplished musicians. When we look at the known elements of a trumpet legend's backstory that clearly helped, we should maybe also think about what was left to chance but, in their particular case, worked out fine anyway. I'm interested in the physical details of playing because I'm hoping to leave less to chance when I'm putting in the hours pursuing the sound.

This could be the opening paragraph to any book on "Mastering the trumpet"
================================================
In the last year my Embouchure has improved leaps and bounds. Daily Balanced Embouchure (BE) exercises are looking after my lips and tongue. A more upstream setting (thanks wilktones) and awareness of face muscles (thanks Charlie Porter) have also helped.

Today's element on my personal Embouchure radar is proximity & alignment of teeth - my current direction of travel is one of closing a bit and aligning a bit. Tongue on Lips (TOL) as my built in fail safe.(stops me closing too much)



Few points for the record.

BE does not require a teacher. It has been designed by Jeff as a "plug and play" method with very precise instructions on how to do it. Jeff replies to any questions within 24hrs as does Ko ("Larrios" on TH) who is Jeff's right hand man in Europe.

I'm not sure if Jeff would get drawn on the comment "TOL is not sustainable" but if he did he would not be short of things to say.

I have 100+ recordings on my phone with sheet music to match as my go to practise material - I love the music - another thing we agree on Abontrumpet. If I have to choose between trying to be 5% as good as Tiny Thing or The Arban - Tiny wins every time.

cheers and stay safe Steve in Helsinki.
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Mike Prestage
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2021 9:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the kind words Steve, and all the best for your progress

Mike
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