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BAC trumpets can't find much in the way of reviews


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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2021 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is a disconnect today that is manifested in the situation expressed by the OP. Players have little opportunity to actually get their hands on horns and try for themselves - so recommendations, and all too often decisions, become determined by irrelevancies such as what country the spit key was made in, or who writes the most convincing "I play this and I know best" posts.

The passion, honesty and eloquence with which Mr. Getzen wrote, particularly in the "you don't get rich" post, prompted me for the first time in almost 40 years to think about maybe trying out a new Eterna even though the top of the web page says they have been building the same horn (that I dont like at all) for 60 years. I could not reconcile these posts and the personal attributes they demonstrate with the 60s-80s horns I remember (and the 70s Eterna I have and strongly dislike), which made me wonder if they had actually changed. The admirable values expressed by Brett Getzen's posts (not just in this thread) are so drastically different from the company values of my youth that I really can't imagine that the horns won't somehow reflect that now.

According to the dealer locator, the nearest to Detroit I might find anything to try is either Bloomington or Elkhorn (maybe Columbus). Oh well.....

It's even worse for BAC. The dealer locator on their site covers Rent-My-Instrument's affiliates, who deal, often exclusively, in entry level rentals - not the higher end BAC product. Kansas City is the nearest to Detroit I can find a Z72. . . .

What I dislike, another may love - and vice-versa. A trumpet is a tool used to an end, and that end of bringing music to one's self and others is the ultimate priority. You need to find the horn that fits you best, not anyone else. So, it is crazy to consider buying a high end horn without playing it unless you are a recreational player with more money than you need. But how then does the player searching for a horn get a chance to try enough to make an informed decision?
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2021 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Subtropical and Subpar wrote:
Honestly, I'd be more worried about the continued American manufacturing future of a certain major brass conglomerate that is now a mere subdivision of a company owned by a private equity firm with a certain reputation for slicing expenses down to the marrow... and who a few years ago tried to sell to the whole thing to [scary voice] a Chinese company.


I worry there too, but not as much as I did then. Not because Samick was a Korean company (not Chinese), but because they have a long history of buying companies, wiping out the original locations, workforce and designs, and building under those names vastly inferior look-alikes in Indonesia in 1/20th the amount of time with inferior materials and labor (mostly pianos) - and they were trying to bag Steinway. The scary sounding venture capital company saved Bach and Steinway from oblivion under Samick - for how long is the question.
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Rod Haney
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2021 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don’t worry with the current multi axis cad tech out there can always be fully made trumpets maybe out of a single slug of brass to tighter specs than now produced. For about $100,000 and all here in the good old US
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Subtropical and Subpar
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2021 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OldSchoolEuph wrote:
Subtropical and Subpar wrote:
Honestly, I'd be more worried about the continued American manufacturing future of a certain major brass conglomerate that is now a mere subdivision of a company owned by a private equity firm with a certain reputation for slicing expenses down to the marrow... and who a few years ago tried to sell to the whole thing to [scary voice] a Chinese company.


I worry there too, but not as much as I did then. Not because Samick was a Korean company (not Chinese), but because they have a long history of buying companies, wiping out the original locations, workforce and designs, and building under those names vastly inferior look-alikes in Indonesia in 1/20th the amount of time with inferior materials and labor (mostly pianos) - and they were trying to bag Steinway. The scary sounding venture capital company saved Bach and Steinway from oblivion under Samick - for how long is the question.


It was a private equity fund that bought Steinway, not a venture capital company. Very different things. "Private equity fund" is the new, polite term for "leveraged buyout firm." And I believe that the PE firm, Paulson & Co., has sold pieces of Steinway's NY real estate portfolio off.

Anyhow I wasn't talking about Samick, which is South Korean, not Chinese; I was talking about Paulson & Co.'s failed 2018 talks to sell Steinway and its subsidiaries to China Poly Group. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-steinway-musical-m-a/steinway-attracts-takeover-interest-from-china-poly-group-bloomberg-idUSKBN1KS0AO

So, any thoughts on those 2019 and 2021 videos showing that American manufacturer building valves and etc. inhouse in New England?
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2021 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Subtropical and Subpar wrote:
So, any thoughts on those 2019 and 2021 videos showing that American manufacturer building valves and etc. inhouse in New England?


They certainly appear to be building trombones in that video - of course you can still watch the Courtois trumpet plant video too - too bad it no longer exists. I have had behind the scenes dealings with a number of makers including Eastman and while I like Shire's designs, I don't trust Eastman's statements.

All of which is irrelevant to the issue that started this thread, which is that the only way to find out of a horn fits a player is for that player to become educated first as to what attributes of horns fit best for them, and then which specific horn best combines those for them.

How does one do that today when there is almost no inventory available to try in the US?
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DJtpt31
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2021 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Subtropical and Subpar wrote:
Honestly, I'd be more worried about the continued American manufacturing future of a certain major brass conglomerate that is now a mere subdivision of a company owned by a private equity firm with a certain reputation for slicing expenses down to the marrow... and who a few years ago tried to sell to the whole thing to [scary voice] a Chinese company.


they are now monitoring this thread. :o
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Subtropical and Subpar
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2021 7:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OldSchoolEuph wrote:
Subtropical and Subpar wrote:
So, any thoughts on those 2019 and 2021 videos showing that American manufacturer building valves and etc. inhouse in New England?


They certainly appear to be building trombones in that video - of course you can still watch the Courtois trumpet plant video too - too bad it no longer exists. I have had behind the scenes dealings with a number of makers including Eastman and while I like Shire's designs, I don't trust Eastman's statements.


OK.

1) The Shires videos are from 2019 and 2021. It's a false equivalence to lump them together with some old Courtois video as if to imply that they too are videos from a bygone age.

2) The news video shows a trumpet valve block being soldered together but whatever.

3) I know people who work there now. Not ten years ago, now. The valve blocks and etc. are made inhouse.

3) Re: "I don't trust Eastman's statements" does nor refute the videos or my personal knowledge of the current workings of the company. Are you implying the videos are staged or secretly filmed overseas? Did the Boston ABC outlet secretly fly halfway around the world to fake their "Made in Massachusetts" series? C'mon. I have provided evidence of their inhouse manufacturing. You have not provided anything to refute this evidence or support your suppositions. Given your confusion around the various Steinway dealings, I'm not inclined to take your word over what I know to be otherwise. I will readily admit that you show great knowledge in other threads on this site, far more than my own, but this is starting to smack of either willful ignorance or an agenda.
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Subtropical and Subpar
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2021 8:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One more video from Shires: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bS5P_LAqiVg

I don't have the time to watch the full 90 minutes, but:

At 12:30 you can clearly see a trumpet casing being made on a CNC mill.

At 13:40 it is explicitly stated that they make all of their parts in their factory. In Massachusetts.

I think that about covers it.
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2021 2:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Subtropical and Subpar wrote:
One more video from Shires: <<<edit: link deleted as it is a movie with an 18 & over restriction from youtube - typos perhaps??>>>

I don't have the time to watch the full 90 minutes, but:

At 12:30 you can clearly see a trumpet casing being made on a CNC mill.

At 13:40 it is explicitly stated that they make all of their parts in their factory. In Massachusetts.

I think that about covers it.


This is good news. I am happy to hear it, and perhaps I will try to visit Shires when next I am out East and ask about why when I compare an Eastman 834 to a Shires A, the valves appear to be the same.

As I said before, I think highly of Shires designs - including those built in China under the Eastman name - its the manufacturing of some, not all, in that second group I have had major issues with.

As far as my not trusting: that was explanation of (and admission of) my bias in this matter - in other words yes, my opinion is slanted by my past interactions with Eastman's suppliers and retail channel - which is why I mentioned that. Past experience has a way of skewing future attitude and even when you recognize this, the "burned once" mindset still prevails. I offer that only in terms of full disclosure.

This all has nothing to do with the thread topic. In the end, how a horn is built and designed is what matters, not if the stop screws, braces, thumb saddle, etc. came from a supplier on the mainland.
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1957 Holton 27 cornet
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2021 2:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Subtropical and Subpar wrote:
It was a private equity fund that bought Steinway, not a venture capital company. Very different things. "Private equity fund" is the new, polite term for "leveraged buyout firm." And I believe that the PE firm, Paulson & Co., has sold pieces of Steinway's NY real estate portfolio off.

Anyhow I wasn't talking about Samick, which is South Korean, not Chinese; I was talking about Paulson & Co.'s failed 2018 talks to sell Steinway and its subsidiaries to China Poly Group. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-steinway-musical-m-a/steinway-attracts-takeover-interest-from-china-poly-group-bloomberg-idUSKBN1KS0AO


Subtropical and Subpar wrote:
Given your confusion around the various Steinway dealings, I'm not inclined to take your word over what I know to be otherwise.


PE / VC - pretty much the same thing - they are all leveraged buy-out firms at their core. They both buy and restructure, buy and sell for parts, and fund startups - some of which they still sell for parts. While there is an image that VC is about start-up, its really just another investment club with vicious profit focus. PE vs VC comes down to a debate over how many investors do you need before a PE firm is a VC firm?

Your slant on the 2018 offer is certainly on par with my anti-Eastman bias. Even the article you linked acknowledges no stated interest from Paulsen and that the offer originated with the prospective buyer. The offer was flatly rejected.

And yes, Steinway Hall in New York as well as some educational and retail properties were all liquidated as part of (depending on how one wishes to slant things) either focusing on the core business, or being responsible to the investors. But huge amounts of money have been invested in Bach, and Steinway has seen modernization as well. I can't speak to Eastlake, but as someone who worked for a while under Cerberus ownership, the experience of Steinway Musical Properties after being taken private has been both positive thus far, and VERY unusual.

I hope that lasts - the changes at Bach have been nothing short of amazing - but, much as I have that lingering bruise from Eastman dealings, my Cerberus experience leaves me still nervous - as you seem to be.
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2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
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1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
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musicman2k
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2021 5:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Master Jabroni wrote:
MrOlds wrote:


As OldSchoolEuph points out, there are tiers in the market. Manufacturers build stuff for those tiers as cheaply as possible to maintain a profit margin for each tier while maintaining some expectation of “quality” for that tier.


The Chinese valve block BAC is using is cheap and not the same quality as Getzen, Bauerfeind, Meinlschmidt, Bach, Schilke or even Carol and is clearly the same valve block used on their mid tier trumpets. You can order those valve blocks from China for $50. When makers like Mr. Del Quadro make a horn they use a quality valves. I think it's shameful for BAC to use such cheaply made parts and charge such a premium price for their "American Made" horns


That is not accurate at all. The valve blocks are not $50.00, I wish they were but, but that is not the case. B.A.C. lets people choose what valve block they want on all custom horns. And no matter what valve block you choose they all need work when they come in. Most people aren't going to pay $500.00 additional for a valve block to be made in a different country. Especially when we tear apart all the valves and make sure everything is where it needs to be, finished by a light lapping to finish the valves off.
Please try to not defame a company on processes you do not know of.
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Subtropical and Subpar
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2021 7:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OldSchoolEuph wrote:
As far as my not trusting: that was explanation of (and admission of) my bias in this matter - in other words yes, my opinion is slanted by my past interactions with Eastman's suppliers and retail channel - which is why I mentioned that. Past experience has a way of skewing future attitude and even when you recognize this, the "burned once" mindset still prevails. I offer that only in terms of full disclosure.

This all has nothing to do with the thread topic. In the end, how a horn is built and designed is what matters, not if the stop screws, braces, thumb saddle, etc. came from a supplier on the mainland.


Ah, I see. I was unaware of that earlier context. That helps me understand where you're coming from. And I may have been unnecessarily sharp last night, for which I apologize. It was just that I knew the case to be otherwise w.r.t. the construction and assembly.

I too applaud Bach's ongoing renaissance in terms of quality control and hope for its continued American manufacturing. My fellow players who have recently gotten Bach Anniversary or Artisan models have been thrilled with how they play (as are the players I know who have switched over to the Shires A or Destino). My first professional horn and still usually my go-to horn is a mid-90s reverse leadpipe, standard weight 72 bell that I got from Osmun when I was in high school. Great horn. Never selling it.

At the end of the day, as you say, it comes down to the care and tolerances with which a horn is assembled.
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Getzen
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2021 8:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OldSchoolEuph wrote:
There is a disconnect today that is manifested in the situation expressed by the OP. Players have little opportunity to actually get their hands on horns and try for themselves - so recommendations, and all too often decisions, become determined by irrelevancies such as what country the spit key was made in, or who writes the most convincing "I play this and I know best" posts.

The passion, honesty and eloquence with which Mr. Getzen wrote, particularly in the "you don't get rich" post, prompted me for the first time in almost 40 years to think about maybe trying out a new Eterna even though the top of the web page says they have been building the same horn (that I dont like at all) for 60 years. I could not reconcile these posts and the personal attributes they demonstrate with the 60s-80s horns I remember (and the 70s Eterna I have and strongly dislike), which made me wonder if they had actually changed. The admirable values expressed by Brett Getzen's posts (not just in this thread) are so drastically different from the company values of my youth that I really can't imagine that the horns won't somehow reflect that now.

According to the dealer locator, the nearest to Detroit I might find anything to try is either Bloomington or Elkhorn (maybe Columbus). Oh well.....

It's even worse for BAC. The dealer locator on their site covers Rent-My-Instrument's affiliates, who deal, often exclusively, in entry level rentals - not the higher end BAC product. Kansas City is the nearest to Detroit I can find a Z72. . . .

What I dislike, another may love - and vice-versa. A trumpet is a tool used to an end, and that end of bringing music to one's self and others is the ultimate priority. You need to find the horn that fits you best, not anyone else. So, it is crazy to consider buying a high end horn without playing it unless you are a recreational player with more money than you need. But how then does the player searching for a horn get a chance to try enough to make an informed decision?


I appreciate the kind words and the second chance. In regards to building the same horn for 60 years, why wouldn't we? The original 900 Eterna is still extremely popular around the world. It is still one of our best selling models. We're not looking to New Coke the trumpet. That being said, it's obviously not the perfect trumpet right for every player. That's why we have other models to choose from.

I have to thank you for pointing out the problem with our Dealer Locator. We do indeed have dealers in Michigan. However, we recently launched a new website and it appears that something got messed up with our dealer locator parameters. I have our web designer looking into it.
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Getzen
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the issue of who makes what and where it comes from comes down to transparency vs marketing. If a restaurant advertised all of their foods were homemade by their chef, but you found out that their daily lunch specials were reheated frozen foods from a food service company you'd question them. If their response was "Well, only the cheap specials are frozen foods because people don't want to pay for the house made items at lunch." That doesn't really excuse the claim that everything is homemade. The only reason I can see that you wouldn't just say only the dinner entrees are house made is because you want people to think everything is. Sure some people will figure it out, but the vast majority won't look below the surface.

What muddies the water even more are the places that readily admit their lunch specials are frozen meals and at the same time claim to be 100% homemade. Which is it? You can't be both.

I don't know, I must just be cynical. I don't like the marketing of "I always do this.... except when I don't." Just like I don't like the "We are the only ones, anywhere, that do this one thing this way." No you're not.

You know, now that I think about it I've changed my mind. I'm going to take on the "always... except" mentality. I am the most in shape person in the band instrument business because I always run 10 miles a day and eat super healthy... except for the 7 days a week i don't.
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cgaiii
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 8:36 pm    Post subject: Re: BAC trumpets can't find much in the way of reviews Reply with quote

saxophonist56 wrote:
anyone played them? like them or not like them? look very interesting can't get anyone on the phone at BAC to ask questions.

Contact Kevin Stiles (kevin@bacmusic.com). He will answer any questions and will look for horns that you can try.

According to Kevin, BAC is still outsourcing valve blocks and they are fully open about it. You can get Meinlschmidt or their Chinese manufacturer or let them choose what will best fit the horn they are making for you. According to Kevin, all valve blocks are thoroughly inspected. Darrel, their trumpet builder goes over each an every block to make sure they meet BAC standards. They are carefully deburred, aligned, piston ports chamfered, spring barrel tracks burnished, better springs put in and the pistons are hand lapped. If they receive a block that does not meet their standards it is set aside as B stock and used for spare parts. They do not just build a horn around a Chinese block. They manufacture their own main tuning slide crooks, lead pipes and bells.

Their intention is to eventually move block manufacture in house, but they were set back in this by the passing of John Duda, so at present they are still outsourcing and reworking the outsourced valve blocks. That makes sense. A lot of quality horn work is done with outsourced valve blocks.

Many manufacturers or assemblers outsource a whole lot more. Sounds to me like BAC is really working hard to produce quality instruments. Like every manufacturer, they have their prejudices as to the sound and feel of the horns they make. They may not appeal to everyone.

However, they are very open to customizing to give you what you want in a horn if you do not like their preconceived models.

I know that a lot of junk comes out of China, but at the same time, iPhones are made in China, and a lot of people rave about them (not me, though). With proper surveillance and control, quality is also possible.

Their stencil line, it is a survival technique. Do you judge Bach professional horns by its Chinese horns?

I will also say that Kevin is great to work with. I have a bass trumpet on order with BAC. Over a period of months, I worked with Kevin on coming up with a horn that would exactly fit my needs. He was careful to understand what I wanted to get out of the horn in terms of sound and utility. He made suggestions as to how to achieve that based on what they have learned from their Elliot Mason design. It was a very rewarding process and he was patient with all my hemming and hawing, bouncing ideas off him, etc. I will report when I get the horn, but I am pretty confident I will get what I want.

I have been looking for a bass trumpet for a long time. I have a Chinese stencil now (Mack Brass), which I got to test the bass trumpet idea, knowing it would not be the best quality. It plays OK in the upper range but is not good down low where I want it to be solid. I have tried other horns of the American style from reputable manufacturers with much the same problems. I have drooled over some of the outrageously priced European bass trumpets. It seems that BAC will be able to give me what I want at a very reasonable price. It took awhile for me to come around to actually ordering it because of the unknowns, but I came around to believing that BAC could probably come closer to what I want than anyone else.
Will this horn be everyone's cup of tea. Absolutely not. It is specifically designed for what I want to do with it (play tenor/bass parts in my small wind group to give others a chance to lead). It will not be your symphonic bass trumpet by choice. Jazz players might like it.
It is hard to come by this degree of custom service. BAC is offering it. If it takes selling stencil instruments to support this, I am all for it.
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LaTrompeta
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 11:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OldSchoolEuph wrote:

This must be the common core math I have been reading about where it doesn't matter if you get the right answer, only how you got it (let me tell you, in the real world, if you are figuring impact force management or catalyst temp model, NHTSA and EPA absolutely DO care if you get the right answer)


Ah, maybe you've missed the new cultural revolution where all sciences need to be couched in political agendas and truth is true insofar as it doesn't offend the wrong group of people.
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