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BAC trumpets can't find much in the way of reviews


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saxophonist56
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2021 9:32 am    Post subject: BAC trumpets can't find much in the way of reviews Reply with quote

anyone played them? like them or not like them? look very interesting can't get anyone on the phone at BAC to ask questions.
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Master Jabroni
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2021 10:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've played a few at some trade shows. The Chinese horns like the Apprentice and New York Series were decent but way over priced for Chinese horns. The custom made horns were very different from each other depending on the bell. I preferred the 72 of the ones I played as it had some real zip and best intonation but did not like the valves at all.
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HERMOKIWI
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2021 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was at Austin Custom Brass last summer and played a BAC/ACB Collaborative trumpet and about a dozen other trumpets. The BAC/ACB Collaborative was super responsive, more so by far than any of the other trumpets. It was a big, instantaneously noticeable and amazing difference.
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Goby
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2021 11:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I tried a few at Midwest Clinic a couple years ago. I was really excited to try them but was left underwhelmed. I did not like their stencil horns at all (Made in china, rebranded in the US), and the Paseo models were pretty stuffy and dead sounding. Their valve blocks aren't made in house (likely ordered from China, as they bear a striking resemblance to Bach TR-500) which is disappointing for a company that claims to be the savior of traditional American craftsmanship. Overall, I think BAC is primarily hype and marketing with very little substance. For half the price of their Paseo line, you could have a brand new Getzen 900DLX, which is actually made in America by a family-owned company.
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musicman2k
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2021 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Goby wrote:
I tried a few at Midwest Clinic a couple years ago. I was really excited to try them but was left underwhelmed. I did not like their stencil horns at all (Made in china, rebranded in the US), and the Paseo models were pretty stuffy and dead sounding. Their valve blocks aren't made in house (likely ordered from China, as they bear a striking resemblance to Bach TR-500) which is disappointing for a company that claims to be the savior of traditional American craftsmanship. Overall, I think BAC is primarily hype and marketing with very little substance. For half the price of their Paseo line, you could have a brand new Getzen 900DLX, which is actually made in America by a family-owned company.


I would try them out again when you get the chance. The entire handcraft line was designed together with John Duda before his passing. I don't know what you would consider "dead" but they are anything but...
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Goby
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2021 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm looking forward to the return of trade shows next year and will definitely check them out again. But from my own experiences, BAC trumpets don't hold their own against the likes of Schilke, Powell, Shires or even Bach, yet BAC charges $1000s more than these other American manufacturers and tells everyone that they're the only "real" craftsmen left.
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yourbrass
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2021 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Goby wrote:
I'm looking forward to the return of trade shows next year and will definitely check them out again. But from my own experiences, BAC trumpets don't hold their own against the likes of Schilke, Powell, Shires or even Bach, yet BAC charges $1000s more than these other American manufacturers and tells everyone that they're the only "real" craftsmen left.


I must be missing something on BAC's Web site - where are the prices "$1000s more...?" They look like standard prices for new instruments these days.
I have no idea how they play, just asking.
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Goby
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2021 7:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yourbrass wrote:
Goby wrote:
I'm looking forward to the return of trade shows next year and will definitely check them out again. But from my own experiences, BAC trumpets don't hold their own against the likes of Schilke, Powell, Shires or even Bach, yet BAC charges $1000s more than these other American manufacturers and tells everyone that they're the only "real" craftsmen left.


I must be missing something on BAC's Web site - where are the prices "$1000s more...?" They look like standard prices for new instruments these days.
I have no idea how they play, just asking.


I checked the website and you're correct, their premium line is $2999 plus tax. For some reason I thought their prices were in the $4000s. Maybe I was thinking of the ACB BAC collaborative horn that was at Austin Custom Brass.
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 4:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Goby wrote:
I did not like their stencil horns at all (Made in china, rebranded in the US), and the Paseo models were pretty stuffy and dead sounding. Their valve blocks aren't made in house (likely ordered from China


I suggest reading "Sensory Evaluation of Brass Musical Instruments" by R. Dale Olson.

Valves only make a horn stuffy if they leak, and response is a function of mass and material, primarily in the bell and bracing, not valves.

Goby wrote:
For half the price of their Paseo line, you could have a brand new Getzen 900DLX, which is actually made in America by a family-owned company.


What are you implying about BAC ownership? BAC Music Center was created by an American, Michael Corrigan, and merged into Rent My Instrument, another small American company founded in 2010 with Americans as its officers and founders including its head, Greg Wohler.

Half?

Paseo retails at $2,995 {Woodwind-Brasswind online}
Paseo Z72 retails at $3,095 {bacmusicshop.com / milanomusic.com $2,995}
Getzen 900DLX retails at $2,612. {wwbw.com, musicarts.com, hickeys.com}

This must be the common core math I have been reading about where it doesn't matter if you get the right answer, only how you got it (let me tell you, in the real world, if you are figuring impact force management or catalyst temp model, NHTSA and EPA absolutely DO care if you get the right answer)

Are the lower tiers Chinese stencils? Sure. So how come everyone praises ACB doublers/Manchester, or John Packer, but then faults other companies selling the same iffy horns from the same makers? (the BAC euphonium is the same Chinese horn as a Packer by the way - not sure why it says designed by Michael Corrigan on the bell....)

Handcraft is designed and built in KC using a mix of US and imported parts, the lower tiers are purely stencils. Benge is pretty-much all in-house. Talking about the company monolithically is misleading. There is a full range at BAC from rental-oriented bargain bin (Apprentice) to student (Artist - yeah, I don't care for the name either) to advanced (Handcraft) to pro/artist level (Benge) - and the pricing tiers accordingly.

Remember when HN White, JW York, CG Conn, Martin BIC and others had full lines?
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HaveTrumpetWillTravel
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 4:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ACB has a Paseo on ebay for $3500 and that's also the price for the collaborative. I am curious to see what BAC makes in the years ahead. I do think the various lines/sources/OEMs can be confusing for buyers, so I see no problem with complaining about that. I think it must also be hard to put together trumpet expertise + building + running a business.
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Master Jabroni
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What I don't understand is that BAC purchased all the Kanstul tooling and are using a $50 Chinese valve blocks on their "American Made" trumpets. It would be nice if manufactures like them actually disclosed the origin of their parts. I know Conn Selmer, Adams and builders like Del Quadro, Taylor and Eclipse disclose where their parts come from.
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Goby
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Master Jabroni wrote:
What I don't understand is that BAC purchased all the Kanstul tooling and are using a $50 Chinese valve blocks on their "American Made" trumpets. It would be nice if manufactures like them actually disclosed the origin of their parts. I know Conn Selmer, Adams and builders like Del Quadro, Taylor and Eclipse disclose where their parts come from.



My biggest issue with them is that the company calls themselves the "Best American Craftsmen" yet sells stencil horns and builds on these cheap valve blocks. Ken Larson has built horns on Chinese blocks before, but I don't really take issue with that since he isn't proclaiming himself the savior of craftsmanship in America. BAC does so much advertising telling the public how American manufacture is a thing of the past and they're fighting to preserve it, yet they turn around and build their horns on imported parts. It just doesn't make sense.
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TrptSTP
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Goby wrote:
I tried a few at Midwest Clinic a couple years ago. I was really excited to try them but was left underwhelmed. I did not like their stencil horns at all (Made in china, rebranded in the US), and the Paseo models were pretty stuffy and dead sounding. Their valve blocks aren't made in house (likely ordered from China, as they bear a striking resemblance to Bach TR-500) which is disappointing for a company that claims to be the savior of traditional American craftsmanship. Overall, I think BAC is primarily hype and marketing with very little substance. For half the price of their Paseo line, you could have a brand new Getzen 900DLX, which is actually made in America by a family-owned company.


+1

I'd love to know where their valve clusters are made. I couldn't care less about "made in the USA" stuff. Carolbrass is great IMHO. But yeah, don't market like everything is made in house...except...except...except. Just be forthcoming about it.
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 8:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Conn-Selmer sells stencil horns from China too. I looked, and I don't see any disclosure where those valves are made (not sure what the other poster saw). Until recently, BAC relied primarily on school music program income. You don't sell $2,000 trumpets much in that arena.

Once again: 4 tiers
- Apprentice - completely imported from low-cost manufacturing, entry level
- Artist - completely imported, with controls and tweaking like Manchester, or Flip's second line
- Handcraft - US-designed and built mixing KC-built parts with modified off the shelf assemblies
- Benge - Entirely US made, hand built, boutique trumpets with a long heritage (originally in France ironically, not the US)

The expansion into high-end instruments is ongoing. If you would like to fund a high-end boutique maker as an investor, go ahead and try - but you'll go broke, as artist-level only makers all have a second income stream to support them.

This is nothing new
- JW York (York & Sons, Grand Rapids BIC, USA-line)
- HN White (King, Cleveland, American Standard, Gladiator)
- Elkhart (Buescher, Elkhart, unsigned stencils)
- Vincent Bach (Stradivarius, Omega, Apollo, Mercedes)

White built his company selling rebranded (some, like his mentor McMillin, with blatant lies engraved regarding maker and nation of origin) on cheap Bohemian stencils, later stenciling imports as American Standard during the Depression too.

And yes, VB sourced parts for his lower lines to low cost suppliers, including valve blocks from Blessing for some Strads - and was known for recycling parts from trade-ins by other makers too.

You can't have Bach Strad without the Chinese Prelude. You can't have Yamaha's Hamamatsu-made Xeno without their Hangzhou-made 2335. And you won't have US-made Benge without stenciled Apprentice.
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Master Jabroni
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 9:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The BAC apprentice is $1000 and is the same horn many sellers sell for under $300. But that's not the issue...

I don't understand that a company can charge so much when there are people like Benchmark trumpets actually make everything are not that much more than the BAC with a cheap Chinese valve section. I understand neededing to stay in buiness and pay employees and rent and overhead.

It's all marketing smoke and mirrors if you ask me, but what do I know.
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 10:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Master Jabroni wrote:
I don't understand that a company can charge so much when there are people like Benchmark trumpets actually make everything are not that much more than the BAC with a cheap Chinese valve section. I understand neededing to stay in buiness and pay employees and rent and overhead.

It's all marketing smoke and mirrors if you ask me, but what do I know.


I don't understand either. Used Benchmark's sell for more than a new Paseo, and new they cost over 50% more. "not that much more"? That's over $1,500 more - that's a used 90's Strad more.

I play boutique horns with valve blocks made in China (CarolBrass), built in England (Andy Taylor), for a custom shop in Texas. I use what works.

Goby found the horns he tried stuffy and dead. That does not appear to be a common reaction, but hey, horns are like any relationship: what works for one sometimes sucks for another. My point is simply that if playing the horn is experienced (as Dale details the common prevalence of in his book) through the lens of imposing ethnocentric socio-cultural perceptions onto the material object itself, especially when for the Handcraft line the block is essentially remanufactured in Kansas City to physically conform to the designs of Paseo, etc., that's unfortunate.
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2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20
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Master Jabroni
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 10:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Carol valves are excellent and in my eyes light years in quality above the BAC valve section.

As for the horns being dull, I did not find that either. I did prefer some models over others. I really was not a fan of the Martin horn I tried from BAC and thought the valves on all the horns with the exception of the Benge (Left over Kanstul sections) felt bad.

I guess I'm just old and want to believe in honestly from a company that is selling a high priced product.
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 10:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Master Jabroni wrote:
Carol valves are excellent and in my eyes light years in quality above the BAC valve section.
...
I guess I'm just old and want to believe in honestly from a company that is selling a high priced product.


The late John Duda had a lot to do with selecting the valves, and did consider Carol (I like Carol too, obviously). The folks at BAC are honest. Charles Hargett is there now, and I am sure would be happy to answer questions. There is also a key member of the BAC team that posts here occasionally, and is likewise informed and completely honest. I spoke with him at length today. BAC is not trying to fool anyone, just to offer a variety of products that offer quality in their respective price tiers and markets.
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2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20
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delano
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Carol Brass is not (yet) Chinese.
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 12:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

delano wrote:
Carol Brass is not (yet) Chinese.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-China_policy#:~:text=The%20%22One%2DChina%20policy%22,official%20names%20incorporate%20%22China%22.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_Consensus
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Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com

2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20
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