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improver
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 Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:27 am Post subject: Reason for laquer color difference on Bachs of same period?! |
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| I've alwayscwanted to know how you can get 2 Bach 37s from the same period for example early Elkhardts, serial numbers just 100 apart both laquer and one horn have a light yellow look and the other like dark almost copper laquer look. And even when the laquer peels the one raw brass lighting the other dark? |
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Steve Hollahan
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| Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:59 am Post subject: Bach trumpets |
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What years? Bach tried to switch to an oven baked lacquer to reduce labor costs. Didn't work.
Bach normally used 2 coats of air dry Nicholas lacquer. This lacquer is very acoustically friendly.
Also horns that are left out can have their lacquer age and darken.
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OldSchoolEuph
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| Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 8:31 am Post subject: Re: Reason for laquer color difference on Bachs of same peri |
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| improver wrote: | | I've alwayscwanted to know how you can get 2 Bach 37s from the same period for example early Elkhardts, serial numbers just 100 apart both laquer and one horn have a light yellow look and the other like dark almost copper laquer look. And even when the laquer peels the one raw brass lighting the other dark? |
I have not seen this as late as the early Elkhart period (1965-74). It is, however, fairly normal across all makes back in the first half+ of the 20th century and stemmed from variability in the recycled brass used by most brass suppliers.
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Ron Berndt
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improver
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| Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 9:35 am Post subject: |
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| Both Bachs are early Elkhardt like 58xxx and the other is 56xxx 1971ish. The 58xxx is a yellow brass color, the 56xxx is dark like copper color. The 58xxx has a first valve trigger factory and the other has no first saddle. They both play well. |
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OldSchoolEuph
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| Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 9:53 am Post subject: |
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| improver wrote: | | Both Bachs are early Elkhardt like 58xxx and the other is 56xxx 1971ish. The 58xxx is a yellow brass color, the 56xxx is dark like copper color. The 58xxx has a first valve trigger factory and the other has no first saddle. They both play well. |
I guess the first diagnostic question then would be: have you used metal polish to shine up bare brass on both for a direct compare?
The reason I ask is that patina naturally occurs over time. In addition, the tone and depth of that patina is influenced by substances in the air which vary not just place to place, but room to room - including from case padding. This can happen, very very slowly, through nitro-cellulose lacquer too sometimes.
If the color is different after an equal, complete, polishing of bare brass, it would be the alloy.
(I had a Holton fool me until just this past Sunday actually - thought it was rose brass because the bare spots matched the lacquered - polished a repair area and guess what? Its yellow brass.)
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Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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trickg
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| Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 10:05 am Post subject: |
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The simple answer is that lacquer can yellow/darken depending on what it's exposed to, so differences in two horns from the same era can look different depending on how/where/how much they were used.
Nikolas lacquer is a just solvent based nitrocellulose lacquer - pretty standard really. It may be acoustically friendly with wooden instruments, but we've found that nitro lacquers are considerably thicker than today's epoxy resin based coatings, and are not nearly as acoustically as friendly as today's offerings.
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Patrick Gleason
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blownchops
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| Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 11:42 am Post subject: |
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Lacquer ages differently and colors for many brands. I find old King horns also turn interesting shades of colors.
It is Elkhart, not Elkhardt by the way.
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improver
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| Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 12:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Ya Elkhart. I hit the misspell. I think thats it. Maybe one was exposed and the other sat in a case. Maybe they came from different parts of the country where the temp and environment affect it. |
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