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PNut
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:30 am    Post subject: Water Key? Reply with quote

This is new to me. Is it a type of water key?

It looks like a screw or something.


https://photos.app.goo.gl/4CHnLyMB9VQRNYX59
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Steve Hollahan
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:52 am    Post subject: Amado water key Reply with quote

Amado water key. Doesn't expand bore at bottom of T-slide.
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That looks like an AMADO water key. It works by having a sliding piston inside the shell which opens / closes the exit path from inside the tube.

That design eliminates much of the nipple used with lever type water keys, because the piston sets very near the outside edge of the tube.

Another advantage for installation is that it is a single piece that is soldered over the hole in the tubing. With lever keys there are 2 pieces, the nipple and the bracket that holds the lever.

With the Amado style, water is prevented from leaking by close tolerance of the piston and its casing (similar to a piston valve). A lever type key uses a soft material such as cork or rubber to act as a 'stopper' over the nipple opening.
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delano
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 10:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JayKosta wrote:
That looks like an AMADO water key.

With the Amado style, water is prevented from leaking by close tolerance of the piston and its casing (similar to a piston valve). A lever type key uses a soft material such as cork or rubber to act as a 'stopper' over the nipple opening.


Amado's are always leaking, maybe unless you maintain them EVERY day.

(IMO they are the worst solution for a non-existing problem).

But there are now more sophisticated Amado-style water keys on the market.
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PNut
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 10:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

delano wrote:
JayKosta wrote:
That looks like an AMADO water key.

With the Amado style, water is prevented from leaking by close tolerance of the piston and its casing (similar to a piston valve). A lever type key uses a soft material such as cork or rubber to act as a 'stopper' over the nipple opening.


Amado's are always leaking, maybe unless you maintain them EVERY day.

(IMO they are the worst solution for a non-existing problem).

But there are now more sophisticated Amado-style water keys on the market.


Like this one?

https://youtu.be/fQC1n6xuwEI
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trickg
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 10:40 am    Post subject: Re: Water Key? Reply with quote

PNut wrote:
This is new to me. Is it a type of water key?

It looks like a screw or something.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/4CHnLyMB9VQRNYX59

You must be very very new to the world of brass instruments - Amado water keys have been in pretty regular use for roughly 50 years or so.
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delano
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PNut wrote:


Like this one?

https://youtu.be/fQC1n6xuwEI


yes
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Divitt Trumpets
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 12:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

delano wrote:
JayKosta wrote:
That looks like an AMADO water key.

With the Amado style, water is prevented from leaking by close tolerance of the piston and its casing (similar to a piston valve). A lever type key uses a soft material such as cork or rubber to act as a 'stopper' over the nipple opening.


Amado's are always leaking, maybe unless you maintain them EVERY day.

(IMO they are the worst solution for a non-existing problem).

But there are now more sophisticated Amado-style water keys on the market.


Disagree. Out of the non lever types of keys, they leak the least.
As long as you oil the key whenever you oil your valves you'll never have an issue with them.
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

delano wrote:
JayKosta wrote:
That looks like an AMADO water key.

With the Amado style, water is prevented from leaking by close tolerance of the piston and its casing (similar to a piston valve). A lever type key uses a soft material such as cork or rubber to act as a 'stopper' over the nipple opening.


Amado's are always leaking, maybe unless you maintain them EVERY day.

(IMO they are the worst solution for a non-existing problem).

But there are now more sophisticated Amado-style water keys on the market.


I've used amado water keys since the late 70s on some of my horns, as well as amado-like ones. Sometimes these horns sit for years, and they certainly don't get daily attention.

No complaints.
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huntman10
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I saw my 1st Amado water key in 1970 on Doc Severinsen's horn. He was playing with the Amarillo Symphony and was at the rehearsal. I was playing in an off stage brass ensemble for the Pines of Rome at the same concert. Doc was getting a little of our Texas sunshine as a relief for a bad cold, and was sitting on a truck outside the stage door awaiting for his part of the rehearsal and we had a very pleasant ttalk.i had noticed that water key, and being a total trumpet equipment geek, had to know about the water key. Doc was so nice to me, it is 9ne of my great memories.

Within 12 months I had my Etefna 4 valve Flugelhorn with 4 Amado water keys!
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dershem
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have found amado keys to stick a lot. I put Saturns on my horns as funds become available, but ...
I once had a flugel fall over during a gig and break the amado key off. I put on a band-aid, and it worked great. Kept the air flow smooth and let the water out.
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PNut
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dershem wrote:
I have found amado keys to stick a lot. I put Saturns on my horns as funds become available, but ...
I once had a flugel fall over during a gig and break the amado key off. I put on a band-aid, and it worked great. Kept the air flow smooth and let the water out.


Too simple? Not really. Just works. It's like Elon Musk asking people to invent Carbon Capture Technology. Uh... gee... trees? LOL!
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PNut wrote:
dershem wrote:
I have found amado keys to stick a lot. I put Saturns on my horns as funds become available, but ...
I once had a flugel fall over during a gig and break the amado key off. I put on a band-aid, and it worked great. Kept the air flow smooth and let the water out.


Too simple? Not really. Just works. It's like Elon Musk asking people to invent Carbon Capture Technology. Uh... gee... trees? LOL!


Trees are a "renewable energy source". A few more years of feeding those wood pellet boiler/generators the Europeans buy as fast as they build them to meet their 15% onsite generation requirement and trees will be extinct.
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delano
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 2:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OldSchoolEuph wrote:


I've used amado water keys since the late 70s on some of my horns, as well as amado-like ones. Sometimes these horns sit for years, and they certainly don't get daily attention.

No complaints.


You must be without doubt the lucky one, but for others: don't try this at home!
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trickg
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 4:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

delano wrote:
OldSchoolEuph wrote:


I've used amado water keys since the late 70s on some of my horns, as well as amado-like ones. Sometimes these horns sit for years, and they certainly don't get daily attention.

No complaints.


You must be without doubt the lucky one, but for others: don't try this at home!

I had a Kanstul CCF 925 flugel with Amado water keys. I never had a single issue with them in the years I owned it.
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Vin DiBona
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 6:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had a custom made trumpet with Amado water keys. (The maker still makes custom trombones, but not trumpets).
This was a truly great instrument except for the fact the tuning slide Amado stuck open twice in concerts. As I was playing the first part in a one on the part group, that could not be tolerated. I had it readjusted but it continue to occasionally stick open, even though it was kept clean at all time.
Needless to say, That horn was soon sold off.
R. Tomasek
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trickg
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 6:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vin DiBona wrote:
I had a custom made trumpet with Amado water keys. (The maker still makes custom trombones, but not trumpets).
This was a truly great instrument except for the fact the tuning slide Amado stuck open twice in concerts. As I was playing the first part in a one on the part group, that could not be tolerated. I had it readjusted but it continue to occasionally stick open, even though it was kept clean at all time.
Needless to say, That horn was soon sold off.
R. Tomasek

Wouldn't it have been easier to have had a tech install a standard water key? Seems like if it was truly an exceptional instrument that's a step I would have taken to have kept it.
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delano
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 7:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It’s not at all a big deal. It’s true that when you maintain the Amados like valves, you have a fair chance that they will work without problems. I had two horns with Amados (now 1) and I admit that I didn’t maintain them very well. Indeed some of them worked still good but others were sticking and/ or leaking. So it is possible that experiences differ. Still I think that the time of the original Amados is over.
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Manuel de los Campos
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 7:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think you can divide trumpetplayers in 3 groups:

1) Amado lovers
2) Trumpetplayers that do not care
3) Amado haters

As a Getzen trumpet afficionado I really like Amado waterkeys; there is no other waterkey system that allow you to free you horn of condens in one single time that works so well like Amado waterkeys IF you know / make it a habit how to use them well: press with your left hand both waterkeys, blow air through the instrument while moving all pistons and in a eyewink your instrument is ready to go again
Most of the trumpet players I know however use their right hand to press any waterkey and than the Amado's don't work well since you cannot build pressure in the instrument by moving the valves

Another great advantage of Amado waterkeys is that you don't have to worry about the playability of your trumpet since you cannot change the tension of the centre screw

While as a trumpetplayer I really like them, on a flugelhorn I am an Amado hater. I found it very hard to get rid of any condens out of any tube of my former Jupiter 846 flugelhorn, I am glad I could sell it for a decent price. My current flugelhorn, a Schenkelaars Prestige has 'normal' waterkeys, way better
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Vin DiBona
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 8:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought about having the the Amado changed, but I found a horn just as good with standard keys.
I made money on the horn when I sold it.
R. Tomasek
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