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PNut Veteran Member
Joined: 08 Apr 2021 Posts: 114 Location: Canada
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Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:30 am Post subject: Water Key? |
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This is new to me. Is it a type of water key?
It looks like a screw or something.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/4CHnLyMB9VQRNYX59 _________________ Gotta Love Music |
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Steve Hollahan Heavyweight Member
Joined: 05 Oct 2005 Posts: 519 Location: Charlotte, NC
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Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:52 am Post subject: Amado water key |
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Amado water key. Doesn't expand bore at bottom of T-slide. _________________ Steve Hollahan
Bach 37, 229 C
Yamaha 9620 D-Eb, 741 C, Flugel
Kanstul 900 piccolo trumpet
Sculptured Recrafting Custom Instrument Repair
and Restoration
www.sculpturedrecrafting.com |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3302 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:57 am Post subject: |
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That looks like an AMADO water key. It works by having a sliding piston inside the shell which opens / closes the exit path from inside the tube.
That design eliminates much of the nipple used with lever type water keys, because the piston sets very near the outside edge of the tube.
Another advantage for installation is that it is a single piece that is soldered over the hole in the tubing. With lever keys there are 2 pieces, the nipple and the bracket that holds the lever.
With the Amado style, water is prevented from leaking by close tolerance of the piston and its casing (similar to a piston valve). A lever type key uses a soft material such as cork or rubber to act as a 'stopper' over the nipple opening. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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delano Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Jan 2009 Posts: 3118 Location: The Netherlands
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Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 10:23 am Post subject: |
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JayKosta wrote: | That looks like an AMADO water key.
With the Amado style, water is prevented from leaking by close tolerance of the piston and its casing (similar to a piston valve). A lever type key uses a soft material such as cork or rubber to act as a 'stopper' over the nipple opening. |
Amado's are always leaking, maybe unless you maintain them EVERY day.
(IMO they are the worst solution for a non-existing problem).
But there are now more sophisticated Amado-style water keys on the market. |
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PNut Veteran Member
Joined: 08 Apr 2021 Posts: 114 Location: Canada
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Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 10:35 am Post subject: |
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delano wrote: | JayKosta wrote: | That looks like an AMADO water key.
With the Amado style, water is prevented from leaking by close tolerance of the piston and its casing (similar to a piston valve). A lever type key uses a soft material such as cork or rubber to act as a 'stopper' over the nipple opening. |
Amado's are always leaking, maybe unless you maintain them EVERY day.
(IMO they are the worst solution for a non-existing problem).
But there are now more sophisticated Amado-style water keys on the market. |
Like this one?
https://youtu.be/fQC1n6xuwEI _________________ Gotta Love Music |
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trickg Heavyweight Member
Joined: 02 Jan 2002 Posts: 5677 Location: Glen Burnie, Maryland
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Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 10:40 am Post subject: Re: Water Key? |
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You must be very very new to the world of brass instruments - Amado water keys have been in pretty regular use for roughly 50 years or so. _________________ Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
- Brasspire Unicorn C
- ACB Doubler
"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP |
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delano Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Jan 2009 Posts: 3118 Location: The Netherlands
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Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 10:47 am Post subject: |
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yes |
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Divitt Trumpets Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2015 Posts: 520 Location: Toronto
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Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 12:12 pm Post subject: |
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delano wrote: | JayKosta wrote: | That looks like an AMADO water key.
With the Amado style, water is prevented from leaking by close tolerance of the piston and its casing (similar to a piston valve). A lever type key uses a soft material such as cork or rubber to act as a 'stopper' over the nipple opening. |
Amado's are always leaking, maybe unless you maintain them EVERY day.
(IMO they are the worst solution for a non-existing problem).
But there are now more sophisticated Amado-style water keys on the market. |
Disagree. Out of the non lever types of keys, they leak the least.
As long as you oil the key whenever you oil your valves you'll never have an issue with them. _________________ www.divitt-trumpets.com
www.facebook.com/divitt.trumpets
www.instagram.com/divitttrumpets |
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OldSchoolEuph Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2012 Posts: 2440
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Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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delano wrote: | JayKosta wrote: | That looks like an AMADO water key.
With the Amado style, water is prevented from leaking by close tolerance of the piston and its casing (similar to a piston valve). A lever type key uses a soft material such as cork or rubber to act as a 'stopper' over the nipple opening. |
Amado's are always leaking, maybe unless you maintain them EVERY day.
(IMO they are the worst solution for a non-existing problem).
But there are now more sophisticated Amado-style water keys on the market. |
I've used amado water keys since the late 70s on some of my horns, as well as amado-like ones. Sometimes these horns sit for years, and they certainly don't get daily attention.
No complaints. _________________ Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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huntman10 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Aug 2017 Posts: 687 Location: Texas South Plains
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Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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I saw my 1st Amado water key in 1970 on Doc Severinsen's horn. He was playing with the Amarillo Symphony and was at the rehearsal. I was playing in an off stage brass ensemble for the Pines of Rome at the same concert. Doc was getting a little of our Texas sunshine as a relief for a bad cold, and was sitting on a truck outside the stage door awaiting for his part of the rehearsal and we had a very pleasant ttalk.i had noticed that water key, and being a total trumpet equipment geek, had to know about the water key. Doc was so nice to me, it is 9ne of my great memories.
Within 12 months I had my Etefna 4 valve Flugelhorn with 4 Amado water keys! _________________ huntman10
Collector/Player of Fine (and not so fine) Brass Instruments including
Various Strads, Yammies, Al Hirt Courtois, Schilkes,
Selmer 25, Getzen Eternas, Kanstuls (920 Pic, CG)
Martin Custom Large Bore, Lots Olds!, Conns, etc. |
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dershem Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Jun 2007 Posts: 1887 Location: San Diego, CA
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Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:11 pm Post subject: |
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I have found amado keys to stick a lot. I put Saturns on my horns as funds become available, but ...
I once had a flugel fall over during a gig and break the amado key off. I put on a band-aid, and it worked great. Kept the air flow smooth and let the water out. _________________ BKA! Mic Gillette was my mentor and friend.
Marcinkiewicz Mic G. trumpet, Custom Marcinkiewicz mpc. (Among others)
Marcinkiewicz Rembrandt flugel, Benge 8Z cornet, King 2B, Bach 36, Benge 190, Getzen 3062... many more. All Marc. mouthpieces. |
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PNut Veteran Member
Joined: 08 Apr 2021 Posts: 114 Location: Canada
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Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:14 pm Post subject: |
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dershem wrote: | I have found amado keys to stick a lot. I put Saturns on my horns as funds become available, but ...
I once had a flugel fall over during a gig and break the amado key off. I put on a band-aid, and it worked great. Kept the air flow smooth and let the water out. |
Too simple? Not really. Just works. It's like Elon Musk asking people to invent Carbon Capture Technology. Uh... gee... trees? LOL! _________________ Gotta Love Music |
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OldSchoolEuph Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2012 Posts: 2440
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Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:29 pm Post subject: |
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PNut wrote: | dershem wrote: | I have found amado keys to stick a lot. I put Saturns on my horns as funds become available, but ...
I once had a flugel fall over during a gig and break the amado key off. I put on a band-aid, and it worked great. Kept the air flow smooth and let the water out. |
Too simple? Not really. Just works. It's like Elon Musk asking people to invent Carbon Capture Technology. Uh... gee... trees? LOL! |
Trees are a "renewable energy source". A few more years of feeding those wood pellet boiler/generators the Europeans buy as fast as they build them to meet their 15% onsite generation requirement and trees will be extinct. _________________ Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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delano Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Jan 2009 Posts: 3118 Location: The Netherlands
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Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 2:06 am Post subject: |
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OldSchoolEuph wrote: |
I've used amado water keys since the late 70s on some of my horns, as well as amado-like ones. Sometimes these horns sit for years, and they certainly don't get daily attention.
No complaints. |
You must be without doubt the lucky one, but for others: don't try this at home! |
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trickg Heavyweight Member
Joined: 02 Jan 2002 Posts: 5677 Location: Glen Burnie, Maryland
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Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 4:45 am Post subject: |
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delano wrote: | OldSchoolEuph wrote: |
I've used amado water keys since the late 70s on some of my horns, as well as amado-like ones. Sometimes these horns sit for years, and they certainly don't get daily attention.
No complaints. |
You must be without doubt the lucky one, but for others: don't try this at home! |
I had a Kanstul CCF 925 flugel with Amado water keys. I never had a single issue with them in the years I owned it. _________________ Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
- Brasspire Unicorn C
- ACB Doubler
"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP |
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Vin DiBona Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2003 Posts: 1473 Location: OHare area
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Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 6:14 am Post subject: |
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I had a custom made trumpet with Amado water keys. (The maker still makes custom trombones, but not trumpets).
This was a truly great instrument except for the fact the tuning slide Amado stuck open twice in concerts. As I was playing the first part in a one on the part group, that could not be tolerated. I had it readjusted but it continue to occasionally stick open, even though it was kept clean at all time.
Needless to say, That horn was soon sold off.
R. Tomasek |
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trickg Heavyweight Member
Joined: 02 Jan 2002 Posts: 5677 Location: Glen Burnie, Maryland
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Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 6:59 am Post subject: |
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Vin DiBona wrote: | I had a custom made trumpet with Amado water keys. (The maker still makes custom trombones, but not trumpets).
This was a truly great instrument except for the fact the tuning slide Amado stuck open twice in concerts. As I was playing the first part in a one on the part group, that could not be tolerated. I had it readjusted but it continue to occasionally stick open, even though it was kept clean at all time.
Needless to say, That horn was soon sold off.
R. Tomasek |
Wouldn't it have been easier to have had a tech install a standard water key? Seems like if it was truly an exceptional instrument that's a step I would have taken to have kept it. _________________ Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
- Brasspire Unicorn C
- ACB Doubler
"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP |
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delano Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Jan 2009 Posts: 3118 Location: The Netherlands
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Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 7:11 am Post subject: |
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It’s not at all a big deal. It’s true that when you maintain the Amados like valves, you have a fair chance that they will work without problems. I had two horns with Amados (now 1) and I admit that I didn’t maintain them very well. Indeed some of them worked still good but others were sticking and/ or leaking. So it is possible that experiences differ. Still I think that the time of the original Amados is over. |
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Manuel de los Campos Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Jul 2004 Posts: 654 Location: Amsterdam, the Netherlands
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Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 7:57 am Post subject: |
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I think you can divide trumpetplayers in 3 groups:
1) Amado lovers
2) Trumpetplayers that do not care
3) Amado haters
As a Getzen trumpet afficionado I really like Amado waterkeys; there is no other waterkey system that allow you to free you horn of condens in one single time that works so well like Amado waterkeys IF you know / make it a habit how to use them well: press with your left hand both waterkeys, blow air through the instrument while moving all pistons and in a eyewink your instrument is ready to go again
Most of the trumpet players I know however use their right hand to press any waterkey and than the Amado's don't work well since you cannot build pressure in the instrument by moving the valves
Another great advantage of Amado waterkeys is that you don't have to worry about the playability of your trumpet since you cannot change the tension of the centre screw
While as a trumpetplayer I really like them, on a flugelhorn I am an Amado hater. I found it very hard to get rid of any condens out of any tube of my former Jupiter 846 flugelhorn, I am glad I could sell it for a decent price. My current flugelhorn, a Schenkelaars Prestige has 'normal' waterkeys, way better _________________ Technology alone is a poor substitute for experience. (Richard Sachs) |
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Vin DiBona Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2003 Posts: 1473 Location: OHare area
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Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 8:04 am Post subject: |
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I thought about having the the Amado changed, but I found a horn just as good with standard keys.
I made money on the horn when I sold it.
R. Tomasek |
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