• FAQ  • Search  • Memberlist  • Usergroups   • Register   • Profile  • Log in to check your private messages  • Log in 

Bach 72 vs 8310Z


Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Horns
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
delano
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 18 Jan 2009
Posts: 3118
Location: The Netherlands

PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 12:47 am    Post subject: Bach 72 vs 8310Z Reply with quote

I have always been a fan of Yamaha trumpets. I liked the play-with-me clips of Andrea Giuffredi on his Yamaha very much. But now I saw and heard a clip of Andrea played on (I presume) his Bach 72 and I'm blown away, what a sound (ok, maybe a little bit too much reverb):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5C_CxCQrRE&ab_channel=AndreaGiuffredi
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Dayton
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 24 Mar 2013
Posts: 1990
Location: USA

PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 6:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I completely agree. He is a wonderful player -- technically and musically -- and has sounded fine sounded fine on every horn I've heard him play on, but that horn matches with him really well.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
plankowner110
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 12 Jun 2003
Posts: 3620

PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 6:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Beautiful playing, and he nails that high "D" at the end on his 1 1/4C Bach mouthpiece. Extraordinary talent.
_________________
C. G. Conn 60B Super Connstellation
Getzen 800S Eterna cornet
Bach 5C mouthpieces - Jens Lindemann is right
https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=26763
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
trickg
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 02 Jan 2002
Posts: 5675
Location: Glen Burnie, Maryland

PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 7:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So...

Tell how this has anything to do with a Bach 72 vs an 8310Z.

For starters, by making this about the horn we completely take away the fact that the player is the one who truly makes it sound exceptional. Put either of those horns in the hands of any beginner and they're going to sound anything BUT exceptional.

Second, there is a TON of effect added in the recording. It's absolutely saturated in reverb, and likely EQ'ed to a certain degree to give it the sound they wanted it to have - darken it up, round it out, etc. We also have no idea what microphone was used, and that has a big impact on how a trumpet sounds when recorded.

Third, this is a video. While it's apparent that he's actually playing in the video, we don't know if that's what we're hearing. It's quite likely he recorded that in a studio, got the recording he wanted, and then filmed the video over the top of the audio. Who even really knows what trumpet or mouthpiece was used. He pretty clearly wanted us to see the 1.25C mouthpiece though - that was placed specifically so it could be read on the closeup shot.

Here's an example of the last part where the playing you see is not the playing you're hearing. This is a video my son's band shot. (He's the guitar player) They are playing "live," but what you're hearing was recorded in a studio on a different day. (I'm pretty sure he recorded using that specific guitar, but he could have used any one of the other very solid guitars he owns.)


Link


Think outside of the box folks.
_________________
Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
- Brasspire Unicorn C
- ACB Doubler

"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP


Last edited by trickg on Fri Jun 18, 2021 7:18 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
bspickler
Veteran Member


Joined: 08 Sep 2004
Posts: 272
Location: Denver, CO

PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 7:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like the 72 as well, but with the processing, reverb etc., we have to be careful about drawing conclusions.
_________________
Bill
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
trickg
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 02 Jan 2002
Posts: 5675
Location: Glen Burnie, Maryland

PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 7:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bspickler wrote:
I like the 72 as well, but with the processing, reverb etc., we have to be careful about drawing conclusions.

We can't draw any conclusions. Heck, we can't even be absolutely sure that this was HIM! We can assume it was - is anyone really that dishonest?

Well....

A friend of mine is the former lead singer of the US Air Force's premier rock combo, Max Impact. He is trained as an operatic tenor and as a rock singer, has the pipes for some truly exceptional stuff. Max Impact has made several videos. The thing that blew me away is that there used to be A LOT of other bands doing lip syncs on those songs, I guess in an effort to make it look like they were the ones doing them? Dunno.

Most of them seem to be gone now, and although this video actually gives credit to the original in the comments, if you don't read the comments, you'd never know that this guy isn't my friend singing the song - he's certainly acting like he's the one doing the singing.


Link


Here's the original, for comparison.


Link

_________________
Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
- Brasspire Unicorn C
- ACB Doubler

"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
delano
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 18 Jan 2009
Posts: 3118
Location: The Netherlands

PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 9:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Me is told that the 8310Z has a 72-ish bell. I am not sure about that but a lot of Andrea's Play with Me clips are made with the Z horn. Always a great belcanto sound, nothing wrong with that. But now he used his old Bach 72 obviously and I have to say, it's a different sound and I have to add: a richer sound.
Unfortunately they used a lot of reverb, maybe a little too much like I wrote earlier which makes the recording a little corny, but that great resonance is there to stay.

At the same time I have to understand that not everybody can hear the sound difference. That's a weird thing, what is clearly to my hearing seems to be different for others. I remember a thread about Adam Rapa, yes or no being in his comfort zone in which some posters had no idea about the sound differences. Things like that make a discussion next to impossible.

Thinking out of the box maybe a good thing but if it turns in thinking out of space I see some disadvantages. If I see in this thread somebody arguing with a clip with some not to difficult guitar execises (play backed for what reason??) and clips about singing military men, I got lost.
And Patrick, I have to disappoint you: nothing is sure in this world, did Bach really compose all that music? Prove it, I think it was made by his wives but he ran with the praise.

BTW I read often here, more in particular about Chris Botti, that sound engineers make the sound, not Chris Botti. But people who say that forget that 'even if a monkey wears a golden ring, it is and will always be an ugly thing'. Sound engineers cannot make the sound of Miles Davis, nor Chris Botti's, nor Anderea Giuffredi's or Timofei Dokshizer's out of a mediocre player or even out of a great player.
But for not developed ears the engineer's attempts maybe result in something close to that sounds, for lots of people that may be enough not knowing the difference between a trumpet and an oboe.

edit: BTW I heard Chris Botti live here in Holland years and years ago in quite a small hall (de Boerderij in Zoetermeer, the Netherlands) and while sitting in front, I could hear both his natural sound and the engineered sound. And yes, he was a little bit brighter in his natural sound but still excellent!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Subtropical and Subpar
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 22 May 2020
Posts: 615
Location: Here and there

PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

delano wrote:
At the same time I have to understand that not everybody can hear the sound difference. That's a weird thing, what is clearly to my hearing seems to be different for others.


Apropos of nothing perhaps but when I got my Bach in high school, I didn't know it was a 72 bell. I didn't know anything about there being different bells. I am 95% sure my teacher just said "Get a Bach Strad." It's possible the dealer, Osmun, told me the three I tried were different bells, but I was in 9th grade: it may have gone over my head or I may not have been paying attention. The only difference I was aware of was that it was a reverse leadpipe. But I noticed that my trumpet didn't quite sound as bright or crisp, I suppose, as my classmates' Bachs, which I presume were 37 or 43 bells. I didn't know anything about bells until I started lurking on this site a few years ago as a comeback player.

W.r.t. not being able to make even great players sound like other great players, the huge difficulty in that is why I've considered Arturo Sandoval's mostly-ignored "Trumpet Evolution" as one of the greatest discs put down by a trumpet player. About 20 tracks, each of which are emulating the sound and style of a different famous trumpet player, from Bix to Maurice to Miles to Wynton and a bunch of people in between, and holy moley does he do an incredible job. His Miles impression in particular, 'Round Midnight, is almost impossible to distinguish from the original track.
_________________
1936 King Liberty No. 2
1958 Reynolds Contempora 44-M "Renascence" C
1958 Olds Ambassador
1962 Reynolds Argenta LB
1965 Conn Connstellation 38A cornet
1995 Bach LR18072
2003 Kanstul 991
2011 Schilke P5-4 B/G
2021 Manchester Brass flugel
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
trickg
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 02 Jan 2002
Posts: 5675
Location: Glen Burnie, Maryland

PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

delano wrote:
Me is told that the 8310Z has a 72-ish bell. I am not sure about that but a lot of Andrea's Play with Me clips are made with the Z horn. Always a great belcanto sound, nothing wrong with that. But now he used his old Bach 72 obviously and I have to say, it's a different sound and I have to add: a richer sound.
Unfortunately they used a lot of reverb, maybe a little too much like I wrote earlier which makes the recording a little corny, but that great resonance is there to stay.

Again, I submit to you that the sound you're hearing on that recording is highly altered - no doubt it sounds great, but he'd sound great on anything.

delano wrote:
At the same time I have to understand that not everybody can hear the sound difference. That's a weird thing, what is clearly to my hearing seems to be different for others. I remember a thread about Adam Rapa, yes or no being in his comfort zone in which some posters had no idea about the sound differences. Things like that make a discussion next to impossible.

I'll be the first to submit to the idea that a different trumpet or trumpet bell can make a difference in sound. Just this week I played an Army Band ceremony with a friend of mine who remarked at the difference in sound (in a positive way) this new Shires Model B has in comparison to the Jupiter 1600i I've been playing for the last 5 years or so. Of course there's a difference. I'm not quite sure where you're going there.

delano wrote:
Thinking out of the box maybe a good thing but if it turns in thinking out of space I see some disadvantages. If I see in this thread somebody arguing with a clip with some not to difficult guitar execises (play backed for what reason??) and clips about singing military men, I got lost.
And Patrick, I have to disappoint you: nothing is sure in this world, did Bach really compose all that music? Prove it, I think it was made by his wives but he ran with the praise.

The point I was trying to make with those videos is that what was saw in the video may not have been a live take - it's very likely that he recorded the audio separately in the studio and then "lip syched" to that audio recording for the purposes of the video. What's so hard to understand about that? The reason I posted the video of my son is because I knew for a fact that they did exactly that for the video.

As for the playing my son was doing being "not too difficult," bro, you need to stay in your lane because you have no clue what you're talking about, or even seeing and listening to. None of that stuff is playing a standard tuning, none of it is easy, and my son is an astonishingly good guitar player. For you to insinuate otherwise is insulting. An apology would be nice.

The clip regarding the Military rock band is to simply show that just because you see it on a video doesn't mean that the guys on the video actually did the playing and singing because again, I knew for a fact that the guys in the one video didn't play or sing on it from the fact that I personally know the people who actually played and sang on it. Again, not a difficult concept to understand so maybe it's a issue with language and translation.

My point in my initial posts were in regard to how you started the thread - basically a Bach 72 vs an 8310z - and the fact that the recording itself is so doctored with recording effects, and the video is likely a lip-sync of a studio recording, that we really have no idea what horn was used on the recording, or even what the sound difference of those bells are, particularly when you begin to factor in the sound of the player utilizing the equipment.
_________________
Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
- Brasspire Unicorn C
- ACB Doubler

"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
OldSchoolEuph
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 07 Apr 2012
Posts: 2426

PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

delano wrote:
Me is told that the 8310Z has a 72-ish bell.


I don't know where this keeps coming from. The Z is the only Yamaha trumpet line that does not use Bach-derived tapers today. It is a derivative of the Yamaha "A" bell, which was designed by Schilke and is probably similar to a Schilke #2 bell if not #1.
_________________
Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com

2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
delano
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 18 Jan 2009
Posts: 3118
Location: The Netherlands

PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OldSchoolEuph wrote:
delano wrote:
Me is told that the 8310Z has a 72-ish bell.


I don't know where this keeps coming from. The Z is the only Yamaha trumpet line that does not use Bach-derived tapers today. It is a derivative of the Yamaha "A" bell, which was designed by Schilke and is probably similar to a Schilke #2 bell if not #1.


Another story I heard more than one time is that the Z horn is developed as some Yamaha interpretation of the Schilke B7. So the Yamaha bell should have a strong Schilke #1 bell influence.

Maybe because it's at least for Yamaha a bigger bell than average, people may wish to compare everything with the Bach industry standard and then the 72 comes close obviously.


Last edited by delano on Sat Jun 19, 2021 12:15 am; edited 2 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
delano
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 18 Jan 2009
Posts: 3118
Location: The Netherlands

PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some reaction to trickg.

The thread's subject is an obvious sound difference, at least in my perception, between some Play with Me clips by Andrea Giuffredi. In the clips I see different horns, a 8310Z and VB 72. So I related an element of the sound differences (the resonance) to the horns.
Patrick sees that different, he sees sound manipulation, playback fake playing or even another player doing the job.
As a prove of that that's possible we got a clip of his son's playing playback.
Is that enough? It's only proof that it is possible and everybody already kwew that. It's not at all proof in the case of mr. Giuffredi.
If we take this point of view, the whole history of jazz is going suspect, it's an aural history based on recording, filming and other registration. What are we going to think when listening to a Charlie Parker record? That it could be Billy Vaughn that played it?
I have the strong feeling that the subject of this thread is pushed in the direction of the clip of Patrick's son and I don't want to go that way.

As a side note, I did not insult Patrick's son, I only said that I was not (very) impressed. He can be a hell of a guitar player, I really don't know. But the ability to judge that is much more in my lane than Patrick thinks.


Last edited by delano on Sat Jun 19, 2021 6:34 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
JayKosta
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 24 Dec 2018
Posts: 3274
Location: Endwell NY USA

PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 6:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

delano wrote:
...
If we take this point of view, the history of jazz is going suspect, it's an aural history based on recording, filming and other registration. What are we going to think when listening to a Charlie Parker record? ... .

------------------------------------
Most recordings were not intended to be a precise 'aural history' of the sound of the performers - the usual goal of the recording was to produce a 'product' that would sell.
Perhaps some 'historical recordings' are made, but I imagine that even those are made with the intent of having 'good sound' as opposed to the 'most accurate recording'.
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
AJCarter
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 29 Apr 2007
Posts: 1280
Location: Indiana

PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 9:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's what it boils down to:

8310Z is closer to a B7 than a 72. The DNA of each horn is just completely different in the build design and even the approach of the players who made them.

The lighter weight, reverse pipe, and step bore of the Shew all contribute to it's overall sound. Bach 72 bells are big and lush, and can absolutely burn when used as lead horns: They just don't know when to say "no". Shew gets a little more sizzle a louder volumes and higher ranges (esp. in silver plate).

Same area, different flavor and approach, hence why they get compared to one another.
_________________
(List horns here)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
trickg
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 02 Jan 2002
Posts: 5675
Location: Glen Burnie, Maryland

PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 7:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

delano wrote:
Some reaction to trickg.

The thread's subject is an obvious sound difference, at least in my perception, between some Play with Me clips by Andrea Giuffredi. In the clips I see different horns, a 8310Z and VB 72. So I related an element of the sound differences (the resonance) to the horns.
Patrick sees that different, he sees sound manipulation, playback fake playing or even another player doing the job.
As a prove of that that's possible we got a clip of his son's playing playback.
Is that enough? It's only proof that it is possible and everybody already kwew that. It's not at all proof in the case of mr. Giuffredi.
If we take this point of view, the whole history of jazz is going suspect, it's an aural history based on recording, filming and other registration. What are we going to think when listening to a Charlie Parker record? That it could be Billy Vaughn that played it?
I have the strong feeling that the subject of this thread is pushed in the direction of the clip of Patrick's son and I don't want to go that way.

As a side note, I did not insult Patrick's son, I only said that I was not (very) impressed. He can be a hell of a guitar player, I really don't know. But the ability to judge that is much more in my lane than Patrick thinks.

The point to my post, which you clearly missed, is that in today's world of the internet and YouTube, what you see is not always what you get. No more no less. You either can't grasp the concept, or you are being willfully ignorant of that simple, basic concept. It's actually a very real thing in this day and age, and there are articles dedicated to the subject of people getting called out for posting other people's work and trying to take credit for it. So no, it doesn't make the entire history of Jazz suspect because this phenomenon online these days where people unabashedly try to take credit for someone else's work is a relatively new thing, specific to the internet age, and more the point, something that has become an issue within the last 10 years or so.

My intent was to merely point out that the trumpet we see in the video is very possibly not the trumpet it was actually recorded on because the probability that he's recording video over a studio recording is very high. It's also possible that he used the Bach 72, but we don't actually KNOW what he used unless someone goes out on a limb and actually asks him.

Quote:
As a side note, I did not insult Patrick's son, I only said that I was not (very) impressed.

No - that's not what you said - you actually wrote:

Quote:
If I see in this thread somebody arguing with a clip with some not to [sic] difficult guitar execises[sic] (play backed for what reason??)

There are people who try to learn my son's songs and licks and can't figure them out. Why is that? Because they ARE difficult - may not sound like it on playback, but they are. Furthermore, that song was an instrumental of a song that originally has lyrics - it's not meant to showcase the guitar.

So let's see here - he wrote, recorded, and performed his own original material that in non-Covid times he toured, both regionally and all across the United States and Canada. The kid toured so much he got tired of touring and lost count of how many Nationwide tours he played.

You don't get to do that if your playing is "not to [sic] difficult."

Question Delano - have YOU ever done tours of that nature? What kind of credentials to do you have to back up your assertions? You hint that you might know something about it, but I seriously doubt you do because I reiterate that you clearly didn't understand from that clip what you were seeing or hearing, and likely have no basis other than a taste perspective on whether or not you think it's impressive - i.e., you didn't care for it, so therefore you weren't impressed.

But getting back to the very point I was trying to convey - the point you can't seem to grasp - the very reason I posted the clip of my son's playing is because I know that what you see and what you hear are two different things - much like the video clip you posted COULD be. I don't know what guitar he used in the studio - it may have been that Dunable, or he may have used his hot-rodded Fender Telecaster. He may have even used his Gibson Les Paul Standard. Again, the comparison, (which apparently I have to bludgeon you with before you'll actually concede to understanding it) is that Andrea Giuffredi might have actually used his Z horn to record that solo in the studio rather than the Bach 72, but only recorded the video with the Bach, and for any number of reasons - it could be he just liked the aesthetics of the Bach. It's a very basic concept - I'm not sure why you can't seem to grasp it.
_________________
Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
- Brasspire Unicorn C
- ACB Doubler

"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
HaveTrumpetWillTravel
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 30 Jan 2018
Posts: 1019
Location: East Asia

PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I bought a used 72 and like the sound. I'm not sure it's as responsive as my other trumpets.

I am curious that when I looked at an index someone here had posted it looks like more performers play a 72* than a regular 72. I see the 72 listed as better for solo/ensemble work, which is what I'd wanted it for.

I wonder what model this is (72 or 72*) and I'm also curious if it has a similar place in the hierarchy of horns as an 8310z, which I'd thought more as a jazz/commercial horn?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
PH
Bill Adam/Carmine Caruso Forum Moderator


Joined: 26 Nov 2001
Posts: 5859
Location: New Albany, Indiana

PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The 72 is VERY different from the Yamaha Z horns. However, the 72* is more similar in sound to the Z but takes the air more like other Bach horns (which I prefer-your mileage may vary).
_________________
Bach trumpet artist-clinician
Clinical Professor of Jazz Trumpet, University of Illinois
Professor Emeritus of Jazz Studies, Indiana University Jacobs School of Music
Faculty Jamey Aebersold Jazz Workshops 1976-2019
JazzRetreats.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
OldSchoolEuph
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 07 Apr 2012
Posts: 2426

PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HaveTrumpetWillTravel wrote:
I bought a used 72 and like the sound. I'm not sure it's as responsive as my other trumpets...I wonder what model this is (72 or 72*)


If it is a model LR180 or LT180, or if there is a star in the bell crest engraving, it is a lightweight (the * in 72* is a reference to the five-pointed star engraved on bells made from 0.020" stock instead of 0.025").
_________________
Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com

2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
PH
Bill Adam/Carmine Caruso Forum Moderator


Joined: 26 Nov 2001
Posts: 5859
Location: New Albany, Indiana

PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The 72 is VERY different from the Yamaha Z horns. However, the 72* is more similar in sound to the Z but takes the air more like other Bach horns (which I prefer-your mileage may vary).
_________________
Bach trumpet artist-clinician
Clinical Professor of Jazz Trumpet, University of Illinois
Professor Emeritus of Jazz Studies, Indiana University Jacobs School of Music
Faculty Jamey Aebersold Jazz Workshops 1976-2019
JazzRetreats.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
HaveTrumpetWillTravel
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 30 Jan 2018
Posts: 1019
Location: East Asia

PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mine is a regular 72. I meant that perhaps Giuffredi's is a lightweight one, since that would seem to match his style. Does OP know?

Giuffredi has posted here before and is very gracious. I love the videos he does.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Horns All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group