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Variation in taper/thickness among mouthpieces & receive



 
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Robert P
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 12:52 pm    Post subject: Variation in taper/thickness among mouthpieces & receive Reply with quote

A friend got a Besson 1000 for their son because I told them I really liked mine and feel it would be a great budget step-up horn. I've played two of them and liked them both.

He says his son's Bach 10C and 7C don't fit right in the receiver, that the mp is bottoming out against the leadpipe and there's wiggle. No such problem with mine.

Wondering if there's a lot of variation among mouthpieces and receivers as far the taper and/or thickness or if the receiver is likely mounted too far onto the leadpipe. He's not local to me so I can't check it out myself.

Are mouthpieces supposed to follow a standardized taper and thickness of the shank? I'll have to get out my calipers and start doing some measuring.
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 1:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My understanding is the trumpets that are intended for initial retail sale in the US have receivers that should provide a proper fit for Bach (and Yamaha, Schilke, etc.) mouthpieces.

Regarding that Besson 1000, it might have a different receiver design, made wrong, or got stretched.

The easy solution is wrapping a piece of clear plastic packaging tape around the shank.
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royjohn
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If it turns out that this receiver is oversized for some reason, it might be an opportunity to tune the gap. The player could try various thicknesses of (say) aluminum foil to get the gap as preferred. This means the slight inconvenience of using the foil all the time, but keeps the player from having to find a mpc that is an exact fit or having to replace the receiver. If you use more than one mpc, it would mean making sure that each had an optimum spacing by means of various thicknesses of foil or (as Jay suggested) packing tape or whatever.

I was really surprised at what a difference tuning the gap, which I did by filing the receiver, made for one of my horns, a vintage Holton Stratodyne. I liked a very small gap on that horn. It became much more responsive. So it's a good thing to experiment with. There are threads on here about how to measure the gap, what's optimal, etc.
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My guess from the details you provided that the receiver is the issue, since two different mouthpieces have the same issue. You have probably already thought of this but something your friend could try is another local player’s mouthpiece in the receiver (or your friend’s mouthpiece in the local’s instrument)

JayKosta wrote:
Regarding that Besson 1000, it might have a different receiver design, made wrong, or got stretched.

^^^^^^
I think this is right on target.

Re: RoyJohn’s advice, the vast majority of the people on here should not attempt to modify their trumpet’s receiver. Decreasing the gap, or truing a receiver, is normally done with a reamer and can only shrink the gap, so if the new size doesn’t work fixing it is more of a challenge.

Here is a thread discussing receivers and Morse tapers.
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Andy Del
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This instrument is made in India. Odds are it is a manufacturing fault, or if second hand, it is badly worn. So your friend can either return to the store or sell it on and rid themselves of a lemon and not try for the same instrument.

Besson has been having instruments made all over the place for decades. Some are OK, some excellent, others rubbish. Some years ago I saw some Besson low brass made in India. The metal work was so appalling you had to laugh, essentially the bells we shaped so rightly the metal was torn, pressed together and brazed/silver soldered.

Besson is no longer a brand to place trust in as far as I’m concerned, despite having played a Besson C for a long long time.

Cheers

Andy
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's possible that a reasonable tech could inspect the receiver and see if the solder to the leadpipe has failed, or if someone soldered it in the wrong position. Then again it might be just worn. If the receiver is just out of position it shouldn't be hard to resolder it in place.
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Divitt Trumpets
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andy Del wrote:
This instrument is made in India. Odds are it is a manufacturing fault, or if second hand, it is badly worn. So your friend can either return to the store or sell it on and rid themselves of a lemon and not try for the same instrument.


I've seen a few Indian trumpets with no taper in the receiver. Just a straight tube that only a small shank trombone piece fit in.
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royjohn
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LittleRusty wrote:

Quote:
Re: RoyJohn’s advice, the vast majority of the people on here should not attempt to modify their trumpet’s receiver. Decreasing the gap, or truing a receiver, is normally done with a reamer and can only shrink the gap, so if the new size doesn’t work fixing it is more of a challenge.


Let me clarify. Yes, of course, reaming your receiver is only for big boys, because you need to know what you are doing or be willing to take the chance on going too far and needing to install a new receiver, or at least have the receiver taken off and resoldered. I figured you all knew that. Thinking about it, I did not use a file...prolly I put some sandpaper around a mpc taper and did it, very carefully and slowly, that way.

People on this forum are buying trumpets for thousands of bucks...what's fooling with your receiver going to cost you, even if it goes wrong? A hundred? Two? If your finish might be marred by resoldering, check with your tech first. Don't get excited.

In the OP's case, his mpc is bottoming out on the receiver end...no gap. Therefore, he can put some foil or whatever around the taper and then measure the gap and try various thicknesses which result in various gaps. He's starting at zero gap and can try up to max gap, which is, I think, about 0.125". No trumpets or mouthpieces will be harmed in the making of this experiment. I don't see any downside to it.
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Cornet: 1970's Yamaha YCR-233S . . . and others . . .
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

royjohn wrote:
LittleRusty wrote:

Quote:
Re: RoyJohn’s advice, the vast majority of the people on here should not attempt to modify their trumpet’s receiver. Decreasing the gap, or truing a receiver, is normally done with a reamer and can only shrink the gap, so if the new size doesn’t work fixing it is more of a challenge.


Let me clarify. Yes, of course, reaming your receiver is only for big boys, because you need to know what you are doing or be willing to take the chance on going too far and needing to install a new receiver, or at least have the receiver taken off and resoldered. I figured you all knew that. Thinking about it, I did not use a file...prolly I put some sandpaper around a mpc taper and did it, very carefully and slowly, that way.

People on this forum are buying trumpets for thousands of bucks...what's fooling with your receiver going to cost you, even if it goes wrong? A hundred? Two? If your finish might be marred by resoldering, check with your tech first. Don't get excited.

In my opinion this is bad advice, even for “the big boys”, but especially for the middle and high schoolers who will not know any better. They certainly are not spending thousands of bucks with more to throw away.

In my opinion a better way to play with the trumpet’s gap is to spend any surplus money on sleeved mouthpieces designed for this purpose.

Or modify the mouthpiece shank yourself using the sand paper. Then the tin foil trick can be used if the new gap isn’t optimal. No new receiver or moving the existing receiver.
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royjohn
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LittleRusty,

It's all spelled out in my posts, the dangers and why you might not want to do it.
I suppose it could be a very bad idea for a middle schooler, but short of not saying anything, how am I going to keep them from reading this. If I say "kids, don't try this at home," that would only encourage them.

I'm an amateur repairman with a lot of cheap vintage trumpets. I measured the gap on my Stratodyne and it was way too big, so it was cheaper for me to make it a bit smaller as an experiment. The results were good, so I continued on until I thought it played really well...as I recall, the gap was very small at that point. I figured if I went too far, I could always play it with the tin foil spacer or have the receiver worked on. The lacquer was about shot, so a small blemish on it from moving the receiver wasn't an issue.

At the time I did this, I didn't have a lot of money and didn't want to spend $120 on five or six sleeves and $50 to have one mouthpiece cut when I was using more than one mpc. With the big gap on that horn, I figured I didn't have much to lose.

But, yes, for a lot of people who can't measure their gap right or don't have a facility for working with tools and can't resolder the receiver or afford what it would cost to do that, fooling with your receiver is fraught with danger. I think I spelled that out and I'm trusting the reader here to use their brain. I'm not saying you're wrong, I just have a more nuanced opinion. I'm not going to call what you said "bad advice". It's just a different opinion.

I'm done wrangling
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Trumpets: 1928 Holton Llewellyn Model, 1957 Holton 51LB, 2010 Custom C by Bill Jones, 2011 Custom D/Eb by Bill Jones
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Cornet: 1970's Yamaha YCR-233S . . . and others . . .
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