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Taking off 1st valve slide tuning mechanism off Elkh. Bach?



 
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improver
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2021 6:24 am    Post subject: Taking off 1st valve slide tuning mechanism off Elkh. Bach? Reply with quote

Will it affect the playability of the 37 to take off the 1st valve slide mechanism. It seems cumbersome and makes the horn blow stiff?
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Brad361
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2021 7:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you’re talking about a trigger, how do you know that’s what makes the horn “blow stiff?” I’m not a big fan of triggers myself, but there can be many things that cause a restricted feel, I don’t know if a factory-installed trigger is one of them.

Brad
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zaferis
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2021 9:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm also guessing that you're referring to a first valve slide trigger mechanism.
I had the trigger replaced with a Bach saddle on the first valve slide of a Bach cornet. I had it done because I'm not a fan of triggers - this way it feels and works like my trumpets.. it did have an affect on the way the cornet plays, I think a little more vibrant - a chunk of weight and bracing was removed..

HOWEVER, this was a minor side-affect. And would NOT be the cause of a trumpet playing stuffy or feeling "stiff".
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2021 9:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have two 180/37s with the trigger and one without. I cannot tell that there is a difference. That might just be me and my ability to detect differences, but it might also be that you won’t be able to tell either.
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2021 9:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For concerns about 'stiff blow', some of the items that are often mentioned are: mouthpiece gap (measure yours and post results), valve alignment, dirty mouthpiece throat/backbore, horn needs a good cleaning, something small in the bell tubing (eraser tip, cotton swab, etc.).
Also check the water key to make sure it is sealing completely.
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improver
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2021 9:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for all of your input. Very insightful. The trigger just seems odd sticking out of the side of the valve. And it's like an unbalanced weight on one side. Having said that it may not be the reason for sound not resonating, kind of feels like my air column is like a train in a corridor that cant veer one way or the other. Might just be the feel.
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2021 9:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Structure projecting off the core of the core of the horn, like a valve slide, has the ability to resonate sympathetically and introduce interference patterns that impact tone. At what frequencies, to what degree, and to what effect all varies widely from horn to horn. The placement of a mass such as a trigger mount at the end of a slide, like taping a penny to a pendulum, will alter the resonant frequency and thus the effect. This is the basis for "Harmonic Balancers" found on several models and as aftermarket accessories. (see https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=155678&highlight=harmonic+balancer)

The story of how Byron Autrey first realized this began with him adding triggers to Benge trumpets (he was the top salesman of Benge for many years), and discovering that the tone changed - became more focused in that example. He then did some experiments (one of which was a big refrigerator magnet glued to the first valve slide of a cheap Bohemian cornet), and ultimately modified his own horn with large patches on the slide crooks. The more aesthetically pleasing nubs were then developed for Doc's Destino and other projects.

To the point of this thread though, you just don't see people using them on Bachs. It may be that the tonal concept where they have the greatest effect is a more French one, and Bach tone is quite different. It may be that the Bach 180 architecture is such that the slides don't resonate, with or without the added mass of a trigger mount or weight, in a way that significantly impacts the tonal formation of the horn. With or without the trigger, I suspect this horn will play the same.
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ProAm
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2021 10:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have read about Byron Autrey and the harmonic balancers.

The harmonic balancers were weight added to the inner slide crook, in the first or third slide or both. Many triggers have the “nut” part of the trigger there in the crook.

The old Bachs I’ve seen with 1st valve triggers have the trigger attached to the outside of the slide, where the nib is on a Bach non-trigger first slide.

Different places to add mass, perhaps different results.
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2021 10:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ProAm wrote:
I have read about Byron Autrey and the harmonic balancers.

The harmonic balancers were weight added to the inner slide crook, in the first or third slide or both. Many triggers have the “nut” part of the trigger there in the crook.

The old Bachs I’ve seen with 1st valve triggers have the trigger attached to the outside of the slide, where the nib is on a Bach non-trigger first slide.

Different places to add mass, perhaps different results.

Not just the old Bachs. My two examples are approximately 40 years apart and use the same mechanism and mounting points.
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2021 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, I had a Bach 184L cornet that was given to me to use in a smaller brass ensemble I played with for about a decade. It didn't have a trigger, it had a saddle on the first valve slide. Played great, but very open. Fortunately, I was in shape, playing wise, during this period. However, if I took a bit of time off and came back to that horn, it was a bit open.

I gave the horn back to the group when I became more of a supplemental, occasional player for them.

Later, I bought a similar horn on eBay. Silver instead of lacquer and had a trigger. I hated the trigger. I don't like triggers a ton, but this one was stiff and didn't work well with my hand placement. I tolerated it for years, though. It the cornet played nice, less open than the other one - but I wasn't the player I was before (lack of practice) so that worked out. When I went to work in a retail music shop, I eventually had one the techs whom I trusted remove the trigger and install a saddle. Feels great in the hands! It also really opened up the horn, so it blows very freely. It's kind of a lot of work to play, now, in my current lesser playing state.

I haven't noticed a big difference in resonance, but it's a little hard to tell on my side of the bell. It might resonate a bit better, now.

Hope that helps.
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royjohn
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2021 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wonder if the OP could remove (unscrew) parts of the trigger to see if there is some effect...if it is mass that is doing it, removing part of the mass should have some effect. Easy to do without any modification of the horn, just to see what happens...

You've got me thinking maybe I should try this on some of my horns with triggers...
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2021 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

royjohn wrote:
I wonder if the OP could remove (unscrew) parts of the trigger to see if there is some effect...if it is mass that is doing it, removing part of the mass should have some effect. Easy to do without any modification of the horn, just to see what happens...

You've got me thinking maybe I should try this on some of my horns with triggers...

This is a good idea.

The bracket that is soldered to the valve casing is rather blocky and between it’s mass and the tension that soldering it to the case might have introduced may mean that the change won’t be completely representative
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royjohn
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2021 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LittleRusty wrote:


Quote:
This is a good idea.

The bracket that is soldered to the valve casing is rather blocky and between it’s mass and the tension that soldering it to the case might have introduced may mean that the change won’t be completely representative.


Yes, what he said...
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royjohn
Trumpets: 1928 Holton Llewellyn Model, 1957 Holton 51LB, 2010 Custom C by Bill Jones, 2011 Custom D/Eb by Bill Jones
Flugels: 1975 Olds Superstar, 1970's Elkhardt, 1970's Getzen 4 valve
Cornet: 1970's Yamaha YCR-233S . . . and others . . .
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2021 7:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

royjohn wrote:
LittleRusty wrote:


Quote:
This is a good idea.

The bracket that is soldered to the valve casing is rather blocky and between it’s mass and the tension that soldering it to the case might have introduced may mean that the change won’t be completely representative.


Yes, what he said...

One thing I have learned over the fifty years of owning and cleaning my Bach’s with triggers, getting the thumb lever with its spring reinstalled can be challenging.
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