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Outgrowing a student trumpet?



 
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deleted_user_687c31b
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 7:47 am    Post subject: Outgrowing a student trumpet? Reply with quote

There are plenty of threads on TH about high quality student trumpets (from the top of my head: Yamaha 2330 and Olds Ambassador, though there are many others mentioned as well). From what I read they're usually seen as instruments that last well into intermediate level of playing. However, at what point should someone who started out on such a student instrument consider upgrading? Low quality student horns may develop mechanical deficiencies, but for the quality student trumpets, that usually doesn't apply.

And in general: how can you tell that a (student) trumpet is 'holding someone back' rather than say, inexperience, technique, mouthpiece or lack of practice?
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PMonteiro
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 8:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For me it was the upper register. I could play high just fine on student horns, but they tend to be more resistant up there. Pro horns don't give me more range, but they help make what I have easier with better intonation.

It's reasonable to think a student horn is "holding you back" if you've been practicing diligently for a long time with no improvement. It helps to try playing different student horns and mouthpieces to rule out equipment issues, along with making sure there are no leaks or other problems. I would also add that if you're playing a <$100 trumpet-shaped object, it's worth trying a reputable student instrument before spending good money on a pro horn.
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 8:21 am    Post subject: Re: Outgrowing a student trumpet? Reply with quote

hibidogrulez wrote:
in general: how can you tell that a (student) trumpet is 'holding someone back' rather than say, inexperience, technique, mouthpiece or lack of practice?


When you periodically hand the kid a pro horn, he/she instantly sounds better, and then says "wow, that was so easy".
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Brad361
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 8:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I teach a fair amount of private lessons, beginners through high school.
Generally speaking, kids in my area get the “upgrade” from the typical student level (usually rented) Yamaha to (again, in my area) a Bach 37 or Yamaha Xeno sooner than is really necessary, very often as soon as second or third year of playing. And kids being kids, the majority are not at a level of ability yet where they can actually tell much difference….other than now having a shiny silver plated horn.

The above being said though, I think it’s often a good idea to get a kid a pro horn sooner than really necessary if it motivates them to become more serious and PRACTICE. I have, however, very frankly told parents (who asked me) that investing in a pro horn is completely unnecessary based on the kid’s level of commitment. Often they take that advice, sometimes they don’t.

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deleted_user_687c31b
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 10:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's quite useful information, thanks for the quick (and insightful) replies.
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Brassnose
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Speaking of my own experience, long time ago. I played my Blessing Scholastic for 12 years before upgrading to the Bach in the signature. The main reason was that it started feeling tight and that the sound was thin compared to better horns. Still have the Blessing, though, and it is fully operational after 41 years.
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deleted_user_687c31b
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 11:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brassnose wrote:
Speaking of my own experience, long time ago. I played my Blessing Scholastic for 12 years before upgrading to the Bach in the signature. The main reason was that it started feeling tight and that the sound was thin compared to better horns.

Part of the reason I'm asking the question is because I have no personal experience to draw from. My own trumpet upgrade was almost accidental. Before I tried the Olds Recording I now play, I blamed 100% of the (many) deficiencies in my playing on myself, not my gear. It was almost pure chance that I tried the Olds and only after a few months did I really start to notice the difference.

Some of my trumpet friends are still playing the Yamaha 2330's they started on several (10+?) years ago. Given my own ignorance regarding the subject (and the fact that the Yamaha's are quality instruments), I was wondering if there'd be a way to tell if they might benefit from a better instrument, or not.
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Jaw04
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 11:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PMonteiro wrote:
For me it was the upper register. I could play high just fine on student horns, but they tend to be more resistant up there. Pro horns don't give me more range, but they help make what I have easier with better intonation.

It's reasonable to think a student horn is "holding you back" if you've been practicing diligently for a long time with no improvement. It helps to try playing different student horns and mouthpieces to rule out equipment issues, along with making sure there are no leaks or other problems. I would also add that if you're playing a <$100 trumpet-shaped object, it's worth trying a reputable student instrument before spending good money on a pro horn.
I agree, it's the stuffiness of the upper register, it makes high notes harder than they should be and leads a student to develop a lot of tension problems in their playing. When a student is playing above the staff consistently and they want to commit to playing trumpet in the future, they and their family should think about investing in a great trumpet.

Other consideration: sometimes the valves suck and always stick. When repairs are more expensive than the horn is worth it is time to upgrade!
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Brassnose
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Serendipity is probably an important factor. The trigger for me upgrading was that I started playing in another big band and everyone in the trumpet section except me was at least a music major or had significant professional training. Some of them being gearheads, the discussions started and I soon decided I needed a new horn … I do have to admit that when I switched to the Bach most things got a lot easier (not true for my sight reading abilities ) so I guess the upgrade was the right way to go.
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cgaiii
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 8:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I played my student horn (Olds Ambassador) for many years. Quite frankly I was blind to all the wonderful instruments out there. Serendipity in the form of a period where some parts for the horn, namely valve springs, were not available (or at least I could not find them, now readily available again) lead to my getting an intermediate horn (Yamaha YTR-4335, version made in Japan). As long as I was coasting along as a trumpet player, I really enjoyed playing this horn with its nice warm sound. Then, as I got more serious and had more time to practice. I found limitations, the tightness in the horn as my normal playing range increased, and I felt there might be something better out there. I began play testing other horns and ended up with a couple of pro horns that make a big difference in the pleasure of playing for me. I eventually found my Schilke, which is a pleasure to play every time I pick it up.
So I think a person will know when to upgrade. That said, the idea of a nice horn as an inspiration to an advancing player also makes a lot of sense. Just not to early. One needs to get the fundamentals down in a "protected" environment first. Pro horns are more various and early on one will not really be able to make an intelligent choice.
Looking back, there was probably no reason to get an intermediate horn, that that is what came my way. I certainly have no desire to go back to the student or intermediate horn.
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abontrumpet
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 9:42 am    Post subject: Re: Outgrowing a student trumpet? Reply with quote

OldSchoolEuph wrote:
When you periodically hand the kid a pro horn, he/she instantly sounds better, and then says "wow, that was so easy".


This is a great answer. Pre-covid I would play all of my students' horns. As much as everybody wants something particular out of their horn, a bad horn is a bad horn. If I can't play a low G or high C on the horn, that means it's the horn. If you play the horn and go: "that was reasonably easy to play a good sound across the full range," then you can push that line further out.
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royjohn
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very useful thread! I have a few things to add:

1. We seem to have successfully avoided the intermediate horn, which is usually a basic trumpet with a few upgrades like a 1st valve slide, but isn't worth the money as an upgrade.

2.My experience with a first horn, a cheap stencil (1960) was: when I got my second horn, a York, everything was much easier and it turned out that my original "Fidelity" horn had at least one leak at a solder joint. The York, which just didn't have leaks, was much easier to play. So if you have a beginner horn, it might be worth taking it to a tech to see if the valves are properly aligned, the waterkeys seal right, the horn doesn't have a leak and the gap is more or less correct, etc. Fixing things like these (which really should have been done with the horn was acquired) could make a big difference in how it blows...

3. While I'm not a fan of keeping a kid who is progressing on a mediocre beginner horn, I don't think it's a great idea to give a kid who isn't terribly responsible or coordinated a $1000+ Bach 37 to ding up. This is where used horns like the Jupiter (160, I think) starter horn, the Blessing ML-1, and the Olds Ambassador can be suitable. They play, depending on who you ask, as well as or close to as well as a good pro horn, but ought to be avalable for much less...anywhere from $150 to $500 or so.

4. Then there's always my favorite topic, undervalued vintage horns...many play as well as any Bach, if you can find a good example with good valves. But you really need help from an expert to find one of these, so you'd need a teacher to play it first...or take a gamble.
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dr_trumpet
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 3:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Outgrowing a student trumpet? Reply with quote

hibidogrulez wrote:
There are plenty of threads on TH about high quality student trumpets (from the top of my head: Yamaha 2330 and Olds Ambassador, though there are many others mentioned as well). From what I read they're usually seen as instruments that last well into intermediate level of playing. However, at what point should someone who started out on such a student instrument consider upgrading? Low quality student horns may develop mechanical deficiencies, but for the quality student trumpets, that usually doesn't apply.

And in general: how can you tell that a (student) trumpet is 'holding someone back' rather than say, inexperience, technique, mouthpiece or lack of practice?


I had a Bundy when I started. It was old, but it played well. When I started adding range, the limits started showing up. The sound was not as clear or as focused as I wanted, so I practiced. I worked and worked, but felt as though I was limited by the trumpet. I played a few others at school (with permission) and found that the struggle issues were all but resolved with several of those trumpets.

My parents took me to the music store, and I found a brand new Getzen Capri that I just loved. I played it from 7th grade through Christmas of my junior year in HS, when I got a Bach Strad 37ML Bb as a gift. I still have and play that trumpet (just recorded with it a couple weeks ago).

I think the important thing is to investigate whether it is the horn or the lack of practice that is causing progress to slow. Both can happen, as a lack of progress with diligent practice can lead to a reduction in practice and loss of interest. However, assuming the student is working with a competent classroom teacher and/or private instructor, one can find the student has outgrown the horn.

As a second element, if the student does get the new horn, and they keep the old one as a dent magnet for marching band, have them play the student horn and see what complaints you get. The faults show up even more when you are away from a horn for a short time, especially as a young student.

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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

royjohn wrote:

1. We seem to have successfully avoided the intermediate horn, which is usually a basic trumpet with a few upgrades like a 1st valve slide, but isn't worth the money as an upgrade.


While I generally agree that most "intermediate" horns are just more expensive student horns, there are exceptions. The Holton Maynard and Galaxy models were classed "intermediate" (300 and 400 level model numbers, 500 & 600 being student while 100 & 200 were pro). There are other exceptions too, even as recent as the Jupiter 606MRLs (which were it not for the intonation would really be great horns). The King 2000 series is another good example of a true intermediate between student and pro.
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1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
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1927 Conn 22B
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