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deleted_user_687c31b New Member
Joined: 03 Apr 1996 Posts: 0
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Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 7:47 am Post subject: Outgrowing a student trumpet? |
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There are plenty of threads on TH about high quality student trumpets (from the top of my head: Yamaha 2330 and Olds Ambassador, though there are many others mentioned as well). From what I read they're usually seen as instruments that last well into intermediate level of playing. However, at what point should someone who started out on such a student instrument consider upgrading? Low quality student horns may develop mechanical deficiencies, but for the quality student trumpets, that usually doesn't apply.
And in general: how can you tell that a (student) trumpet is 'holding someone back' rather than say, inexperience, technique, mouthpiece or lack of practice? |
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PMonteiro Veteran Member
Joined: 29 Jul 2020 Posts: 130 Location: Hudson Valley
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Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 8:16 am Post subject: |
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For me it was the upper register. I could play high just fine on student horns, but they tend to be more resistant up there. Pro horns don't give me more range, but they help make what I have easier with better intonation.
It's reasonable to think a student horn is "holding you back" if you've been practicing diligently for a long time with no improvement. It helps to try playing different student horns and mouthpieces to rule out equipment issues, along with making sure there are no leaks or other problems. I would also add that if you're playing a <$100 trumpet-shaped object, it's worth trying a reputable student instrument before spending good money on a pro horn. _________________ YTR-6335HSII
YTR-2320
Accord in C |
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OldSchoolEuph Heavyweight Member
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Joined: 07 Apr 2012 Posts: 2440
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Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 8:21 am Post subject: Re: Outgrowing a student trumpet? |
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hibidogrulez wrote: | in general: how can you tell that a (student) trumpet is 'holding someone back' rather than say, inexperience, technique, mouthpiece or lack of practice? |
When you periodically hand the kid a pro horn, he/she instantly sounds better, and then says "wow, that was so easy". _________________ Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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Brad361 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 7080 Location: Houston, TX.
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Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 8:39 am Post subject: |
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I teach a fair amount of private lessons, beginners through high school.
Generally speaking, kids in my area get the “upgrade” from the typical student level (usually rented) Yamaha to (again, in my area) a Bach 37 or Yamaha Xeno sooner than is really necessary, very often as soon as second or third year of playing. And kids being kids, the majority are not at a level of ability yet where they can actually tell much difference….other than now having a shiny silver plated horn.
The above being said though, I think it’s often a good idea to get a kid a pro horn sooner than really necessary if it motivates them to become more serious and PRACTICE. I have, however, very frankly told parents (who asked me) that investing in a pro horn is completely unnecessary based on the kid’s level of commitment. Often they take that advice, sometimes they don’t.
Brad _________________ When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval |
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deleted_user_687c31b New Member
Joined: 03 Apr 1996 Posts: 0
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Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 10:24 am Post subject: |
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That's quite useful information, thanks for the quick (and insightful) replies. |
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Brassnose Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Mar 2016 Posts: 2052 Location: Germany
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Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 11:16 am Post subject: |
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Speaking of my own experience, long time ago. I played my Blessing Scholastic for 12 years before upgrading to the Bach in the signature. The main reason was that it started feeling tight and that the sound was thin compared to better horns. Still have the Blessing, though, and it is fully operational after 41 years. _________________ 2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance, Frate, Klier |
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deleted_user_687c31b New Member
Joined: 03 Apr 1996 Posts: 0
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Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 11:40 am Post subject: |
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Brassnose wrote: | Speaking of my own experience, long time ago. I played my Blessing Scholastic for 12 years before upgrading to the Bach in the signature. The main reason was that it started feeling tight and that the sound was thin compared to better horns. |
Part of the reason I'm asking the question is because I have no personal experience to draw from. My own trumpet upgrade was almost accidental. Before I tried the Olds Recording I now play, I blamed 100% of the (many) deficiencies in my playing on myself, not my gear. It was almost pure chance that I tried the Olds and only after a few months did I really start to notice the difference.
Some of my trumpet friends are still playing the Yamaha 2330's they started on several (10+?) years ago. Given my own ignorance regarding the subject (and the fact that the Yamaha's are quality instruments), I was wondering if there'd be a way to tell if they might benefit from a better instrument, or not. |
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Jaw04 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 31 Dec 2015 Posts: 900 Location: Bay Area, California
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Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 11:55 am Post subject: |
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PMonteiro wrote: | For me it was the upper register. I could play high just fine on student horns, but they tend to be more resistant up there. Pro horns don't give me more range, but they help make what I have easier with better intonation.
It's reasonable to think a student horn is "holding you back" if you've been practicing diligently for a long time with no improvement. It helps to try playing different student horns and mouthpieces to rule out equipment issues, along with making sure there are no leaks or other problems. I would also add that if you're playing a <$100 trumpet-shaped object, it's worth trying a reputable student instrument before spending good money on a pro horn. | I agree, it's the stuffiness of the upper register, it makes high notes harder than they should be and leads a student to develop a lot of tension problems in their playing. When a student is playing above the staff consistently and they want to commit to playing trumpet in the future, they and their family should think about investing in a great trumpet.
Other consideration: sometimes the valves suck and always stick. When repairs are more expensive than the horn is worth it is time to upgrade! |
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Brassnose Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Mar 2016 Posts: 2052 Location: Germany
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Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 11:58 am Post subject: |
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Serendipity is probably an important factor. The trigger for me upgrading was that I started playing in another big band and everyone in the trumpet section except me was at least a music major or had significant professional training. Some of them being gearheads, the discussions started and I soon decided I needed a new horn … I do have to admit that when I switched to the Bach most things got a lot easier (not true for my sight reading abilities ) so I guess the upgrade was the right way to go. _________________ 2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance, Frate, Klier |
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cgaiii Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 Jun 2017 Posts: 1545 Location: Virginia USA
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Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 8:08 am Post subject: |
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I played my student horn (Olds Ambassador) for many years. Quite frankly I was blind to all the wonderful instruments out there. Serendipity in the form of a period where some parts for the horn, namely valve springs, were not available (or at least I could not find them, now readily available again) lead to my getting an intermediate horn (Yamaha YTR-4335, version made in Japan). As long as I was coasting along as a trumpet player, I really enjoyed playing this horn with its nice warm sound. Then, as I got more serious and had more time to practice. I found limitations, the tightness in the horn as my normal playing range increased, and I felt there might be something better out there. I began play testing other horns and ended up with a couple of pro horns that make a big difference in the pleasure of playing for me. I eventually found my Schilke, which is a pleasure to play every time I pick it up.
So I think a person will know when to upgrade. That said, the idea of a nice horn as an inspiration to an advancing player also makes a lot of sense. Just not to early. One needs to get the fundamentals down in a "protected" environment first. Pro horns are more various and early on one will not really be able to make an intelligent choice.
Looking back, there was probably no reason to get an intermediate horn, that that is what came my way. I certainly have no desire to go back to the student or intermediate horn. _________________ Bb: Schilke X3L AS SP, Yamaha YTR-6335S
C: Schilke CXL, Kanstul 1510-2
Picc: Kanstul 920
Bb Bugle: Kanstul
Bb Pocket: Manchester Brass
Flugel: Taylor Standard
Bass Trumpet: BAC Custom
Natural Tr: Custom Haas replica by Nikolai Mänttäri Morales |
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abontrumpet Heavyweight Member
Joined: 08 May 2009 Posts: 1772
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Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 9:42 am Post subject: Re: Outgrowing a student trumpet? |
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OldSchoolEuph wrote: | When you periodically hand the kid a pro horn, he/she instantly sounds better, and then says "wow, that was so easy". |
This is a great answer. Pre-covid I would play all of my students' horns. As much as everybody wants something particular out of their horn, a bad horn is a bad horn. If I can't play a low G or high C on the horn, that means it's the horn. If you play the horn and go: "that was reasonably easy to play a good sound across the full range," then you can push that line further out. |
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royjohn Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Jan 2005 Posts: 2272 Location: Knoxville, Tennessee
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Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 2:45 pm Post subject: |
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Very useful thread! I have a few things to add:
1. We seem to have successfully avoided the intermediate horn, which is usually a basic trumpet with a few upgrades like a 1st valve slide, but isn't worth the money as an upgrade.
2.My experience with a first horn, a cheap stencil (1960) was: when I got my second horn, a York, everything was much easier and it turned out that my original "Fidelity" horn had at least one leak at a solder joint. The York, which just didn't have leaks, was much easier to play. So if you have a beginner horn, it might be worth taking it to a tech to see if the valves are properly aligned, the waterkeys seal right, the horn doesn't have a leak and the gap is more or less correct, etc. Fixing things like these (which really should have been done with the horn was acquired) could make a big difference in how it blows...
3. While I'm not a fan of keeping a kid who is progressing on a mediocre beginner horn, I don't think it's a great idea to give a kid who isn't terribly responsible or coordinated a $1000+ Bach 37 to ding up. This is where used horns like the Jupiter (160, I think) starter horn, the Blessing ML-1, and the Olds Ambassador can be suitable. They play, depending on who you ask, as well as or close to as well as a good pro horn, but ought to be avalable for much less...anywhere from $150 to $500 or so.
4. Then there's always my favorite topic, undervalued vintage horns...many play as well as any Bach, if you can find a good example with good valves. But you really need help from an expert to find one of these, so you'd need a teacher to play it first...or take a gamble. _________________ royjohn
Trumpets: 1928 Holton Llewellyn Model, 1957 Holton 51LB, 2010 Custom C by Bill Jones, 2011 Custom D/Eb by Bill Jones
Flugels: 1975 Olds Superstar, 1970's Elkhardt, 1970's Getzen 4 valve
Cornet: 1970's Yamaha YCR-233S . . . and others . . . |
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dr_trumpet Heavyweight Member
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Joined: 22 Nov 2001 Posts: 2533 Location: Cope, IN
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Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 3:45 pm Post subject: Re: Outgrowing a student trumpet? |
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hibidogrulez wrote: | There are plenty of threads on TH about high quality student trumpets (from the top of my head: Yamaha 2330 and Olds Ambassador, though there are many others mentioned as well). From what I read they're usually seen as instruments that last well into intermediate level of playing. However, at what point should someone who started out on such a student instrument consider upgrading? Low quality student horns may develop mechanical deficiencies, but for the quality student trumpets, that usually doesn't apply.
And in general: how can you tell that a (student) trumpet is 'holding someone back' rather than say, inexperience, technique, mouthpiece or lack of practice? |
I had a Bundy when I started. It was old, but it played well. When I started adding range, the limits started showing up. The sound was not as clear or as focused as I wanted, so I practiced. I worked and worked, but felt as though I was limited by the trumpet. I played a few others at school (with permission) and found that the struggle issues were all but resolved with several of those trumpets.
My parents took me to the music store, and I found a brand new Getzen Capri that I just loved. I played it from 7th grade through Christmas of my junior year in HS, when I got a Bach Strad 37ML Bb as a gift. I still have and play that trumpet (just recorded with it a couple weeks ago).
I think the important thing is to investigate whether it is the horn or the lack of practice that is causing progress to slow. Both can happen, as a lack of progress with diligent practice can lead to a reduction in practice and loss of interest. However, assuming the student is working with a competent classroom teacher and/or private instructor, one can find the student has outgrown the horn.
As a second element, if the student does get the new horn, and they keep the old one as a dent magnet for marching band, have them play the student horn and see what complaints you get. The faults show up even more when you are away from a horn for a short time, especially as a young student.
AL _________________ Dr. Albert L. Lilly, III DM
Artist/Clinician for Vincent Bach Trumpets (Conn-Selmer)
Principal Trumpet, Hendricks Symphony (Avon, IN)
Arranger/Composer; Lilly Music |
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OldSchoolEuph Heavyweight Member
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Joined: 07 Apr 2012 Posts: 2440
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Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 4:51 pm Post subject: |
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royjohn wrote: |
1. We seem to have successfully avoided the intermediate horn, which is usually a basic trumpet with a few upgrades like a 1st valve slide, but isn't worth the money as an upgrade. |
While I generally agree that most "intermediate" horns are just more expensive student horns, there are exceptions. The Holton Maynard and Galaxy models were classed "intermediate" (300 and 400 level model numbers, 500 & 600 being student while 100 & 200 were pro). There are other exceptions too, even as recent as the Jupiter 606MRLs (which were it not for the intonation would really be great horns). The King 2000 series is another good example of a true intermediate between student and pro. _________________ Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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