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Nickel vs Monel


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PNut
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 2:15 pm    Post subject: Nickel vs Monel Reply with quote

What do you think?

https://getzen.com/2006/03/04/nickel-vs-monel-the-battle-rages-on/
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Dayton
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Getzen valves are easily my favorite. Whether that is because of the nickel, the guides they use, the springs...all three...I do not know.

That said, Van Laar, Bach, Schilke, Shires...do not use nickel but perform just fine. I would expect all of them to work reliably for many, many years if the horn is kept clean and the valves are oiled regularly with a quality oil.
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are a considerable number of threads discussing or referencing Brett’s tests over the last decade or so. For instance this thread.
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shofarguy
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have had horns with Monel valves, rebuilt Monel that was nickel plated & Monel valves that had been treated with a nano coating formulated for that purpose.

Worst were the original Benge valves, which were Monel. The very best were the Benge valves after being nickel plated and refitted at the Kanstul factory.

The Monel valves that were treated with the nano-coating performed just as well as the rebuilt Benge valves, but felt like super-Monel valves. The nickel felt... luxurious.

The Monel valves on my other instruments (Kanstul and Schilke) performed and continue to perform very well, though certain horns did require a break-in period.

The one component that has given a consistent benefit to all of these horns is Flip Oakes brand valve oil. Years ago, he worked out a proprietary blend with his supplier that he provides to his customers, if they wish. It easily provides the most reliable and fast working valves of any oil I've tried.
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yourbrass
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 6:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr, Getzen is right. Nickel-plated valves have always been the industry standard.
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delano
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 7:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yourbrass wrote:
Mr, Getzen is right. Nickel-plated valves have always been the industry standard.


'the' industry standard?

What about Bauerfeind or, more recently, Hoxon Gakki?

Getzen valves are without doubt very good but Bauerfeind and Selmer Paris are/were the best performing valves in the business IMO (and certainly not only in my opnion), so there is a good reason that they should be 'the' industry standard (all three personal experience). And I heard similar things about the Hoxon-Gakki valves. I am sure about Bauerfeind and Hoxon being stainless steel but I'm not sure about Selmer Paris, those are monel I think.
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Getzen
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 7:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yourbrass wrote:
Mr, Getzen is right. Nickel-plated valves have always been the industry standard.


Unfortunately, I have to disagree with this statement. While I will argue till the end that nickel plated, nickel silver pistons are superior, I do not think they are the industry standard. Like so many other products today, the industry standard is the cheapest/easiest thing to manufacture that the majority of people will accept and, more importantly, pay for.

And there's nothing wrong with that if your end goal is to make the most margin you can make. In that case, it's just good business. Coca-cola didn't switch from cane sugar to corn syrup because it made the soda taste better. The cost dropped significantly and the flavor was good enough to keep selling every can they produced.

Unfortunately, we tend to confuse quantity and quality. I mean honestly, can anyone argue that anything from Miller, Coors, or Budweiser is the best beer made? Definitely not. But do they sell the most? Without a doubt. Does McDonald's make the best hamburger? Not even close. But it will work when you're hungry. Does Popeye's make the best chicken sandwich? OK, maybe ignore that one because those things are pretty damn good.
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 7:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The current 'standard of comparison' seems to be monel pistons that are fitted so they work well - no sticking, fast action, good air seal.

Is there any evidence or experience that well-made valves (criteria above) made from other materials are longer lasting, or have other benefits?

And yes, various makers CHOOSE the materials for their valves based on their own experience with what gives the results they want.
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ebolton
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 8:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think there is a language disconnect here. I think some people are saying "industry standard" when they mean "gold standard." I agree with Mr. Getzen monel is the industry standard, and nickel plate is the gold standard.

For my own anecdotal contribution, I have two trumpets: a very old Holton with plated valves (nickel plate I think) and a much newer one with Monel. They both seal well but I think the Holton valves feel better. Despite being40 or 50 years old, the wear on the Holton is invisible while I'm seeing slight scuffing on the new horn.
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Goby
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 8:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bauerfiend is certainly great, but I don't think that takes away anything from Getzen. Speaking from experience, Getzen valves are incredibly precise and excellent in both feel and performance, and are among the best in the world.

Getzen's own tests showing that nickel plate is harder than monel would certainly verify their claims that nickel plate is the way to go, and I really appreciate a manufacturer showing research and quantified data. I don't think that Monel is used solely for cost-cutting reasons, as building a valve is an incredibly laborious (and specialized) task, and with the availability of valve blocks from China and Taiwan, it wouldn't make sense to pinch pennies and offer a sub-par product if you're spending a high price for labor in the USA, Germany, or the Netherlands. With modern valve oils and proper maintenance, a monel valve should be able to last a lifetime, as should a nickel-plated one.


As a side note, I've heard (perhaps on TH?) that Doc Severinsen has the valves on his personal Shires Destinos nickel plated, while the standard production is Monel.

Props to Getzen once again for chiming in. I really enjoy hearing from manufacturers and hope to see more Getzen posts on TH. Maybe a feature post of the new X7 cornet is in order
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 9:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Done well, nickel plated, monel and stainless valves can all be made to tight tolerances and long-lasting smooth performance. My personal favorite is nickel, but I have had some really great stainless valves too. Really its all in how they are made, and fitted.

With automation today, valves can be trimmed or plated to exceptionally tight tolerances and casings can be honed to the same. Most makers rely upon that precision not just in size but in straightness, to let them install the pistons and ship. This leaves the owner "breaking in" the valves - which is nothing new certainly. While Getzen's lifetime warranty on pistons (not valves, pistons) is a smart move in that pistons dont wear, casings do, it is true that Getzen valves have a better reputation in the market for not having break-in issues and for lasting. This is because they still lap the valves in on each horn (as does BAC and Bach did - I assume they still do). This may cause a slightly larger gap on day one, but it eliminates the opportunity for bad owner habits to wear the valves in poorly leading to more rapid casing wall loss. Their valves do last a bit longer as a result, and have far fewer problems when young.

Getzen valves still need rebuilds eventually - I have some examples myself - but Getzen and the few others still invest that hand labor because it does provide superior resilience to the bad habits of the customer, resulting in greater longevity of superior performance on average.

At the end of the day, that has infinitely more to do with valve performance than the alloy.
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Divitt Trumpets
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Goby wrote:

I don't think that Monel is used solely for cost-cutting reasons, as building a valve is an incredibly laborious (and specialized) task, and with the availability of valve blocks from China and Taiwan, it wouldn't make sense to pinch pennies and offer a sub-par product if you're spending a high price for labor in the USA, Germany, or the Netherlands. With modern valve oils and proper maintenance, a monel valve should be able to last a lifetime, as should a nickel-plated one.


And stainless steel is 1/10 the cost of Monel, and easier to obtain.
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Grits Burgh
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Getzen wrote:
yourbrass wrote:
Mr, Getzen is right. Nickel-plated valves have always been the industry standard.


Unfortunately, I have to disagree with this statement. While I will argue till the end that nickel plated, nickel silver pistons are superior, I do not think they are the industry standard. Like so many other products today, the industry standard is the cheapest/easiest thing to manufacture that the majority of people will accept and, more importantly, pay for.

And there's nothing wrong with that if your end goal is to make the most margin you can make. In that case, it's just good business. Coca-cola didn't switch from cane sugar to corn syrup because it made the soda taste better. The cost dropped significantly and the flavor was good enough to keep selling every can they produced.

Unfortunately, we tend to confuse quantity and quality. I mean honestly, can anyone argue that anything from Miller, Coors, or Budweiser is the best beer made? Definitely not. But do they sell the most? Without a doubt. Does McDonald's make the best hamburger? Not even close. But it will work when you're hungry. Does Popeye's make the best chicken sandwich? OK, maybe ignore that one because those things are pretty damn good.


Brett, I just ordered a cornet from you. Please get off of the computer, get out there in the shop and get busy. I'm as anxious as a 5 year old the night before Christmas.

Warm regards,
Grits
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mike ansberry
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would imagine that the quality of the monel or nickel or stainless steel pistons as well the valve casings, along with the care used in the honing and fitting process, will have a lot to do with the performance of any valve cluster.

But having said that:
I have seen people (including me) have problems with some monel valves, most notably Bach, developing a greenish brown stain on the valve itself. I believe this is caused by galling. Brass from the casing adheres to the valve piston causing the stain. This seems to cause the valve to drag. I am not sure if it is due to the individual's body chemistry, the valve oil they use, or a problem with the monel alloy. I have seen this quite a few times. It is hard to get the stain off the stain off of the piston. I have used jeweler's rouge and oil mixed on a cloth and polished the stain off. This seems to do the trick for a while. Then it needs to be repeated.
I was a middle school band director. I had massive problems with Jupiter monel valves back in the early 2000s. I griped about it. Jupiter contacted me and told me that they made a mistake with their monel alloy causing galling. They sent me all new nickel pistons free of charge. The nickel pistons were better, but not great. So of course I complained again. They contacted me and said they had solved the problem. They sent me new stainless steel pistons for all my Jupiter brass. Problem solved. They worked great.
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Goby
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Probably an issue of saliva, valve oil, and the metal of the piston. I used to get a brownish haze on the pistons of my Bach when I used Ultra-Pure oil. Switched to Hetman and problem solved.
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 2:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mike ansberry wrote:
I have seen people (including me) have problems with some monel valves, most notably Bach, developing a greenish brown stain on the valve itself. I believe this is caused by galling. Brass from the casing adheres to the valve piston causing the stain.

...

I had massive problems with Jupiter monel valves back in the early 2000s.


While I never encountered any of the Bach examples, Jupiter had big problems with this (Anyone using monel can) and I have some of those Jupiter valves too. The problem is micro-porosity. When the liquid monel metal first hardens, tiny air pockets form - how often depends on how good the casting process is. When the surface is machined, though it looks smooth to the naked eye, these tiny pockets make the surface like a file and it abrades brass off of the casing wall as the piston moves up and down creating the dark spot(s). Brass on brass contact in a wet environment very quickly then results in corrosive occlusion
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Getzen
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 5:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have to echo the opposite of what OldSchoolEuph said. Indeed, when done well, all three (nickel, monel, stainless steel) can and do produce pistons that will last and perform. When done poorly, all three of them can and will be terrible.

A certain, now defunct, manufacturer of mainly marching brass years ago decided to try out nickel plating on their monel valves. The only plating shop near them specialized in decorative plating. While it looked good, the layer of nickel plating applied to their pistons was very soft and extremely thin. Obviously, they failed. That company then ran with the failure to claim it demonstrated the superiority of monel over nickel plating.

Also, again to echo OldSchoolEuph, the micro-porosity problem can be exacerbated by the annealing process that takes place when liners are brazed into the pistons. The high temperatures required for brazing not only soften the material around the liners, but also alters the grain structure of the metal. Think microscopic sand paper. The harder/rougher piston surface drags the inner surface of the casing depositing brass on the piston surface. This is the greenish staining you see. Be very, very careful polishing that off of the pistons. The last thing you want to do is jeopardize the concentricity (is that a word) of the pistons.
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Getzen
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 5:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Grits Burgh"Brett, I just ordered a cornet from you. Please get off of the computer, get out there in the shop and get busy. I'm as anxious as a 5 year old the night before Christmas.

Warm regards,
Grits[/quote]

Thank you very much for the order. What are you getting and where did you order it?

Believe me, the last thing you want me to do is go out and work on your cornet. My factory days are long behind me. Despite how much I miss it, at this point, I would just get in the way of the real craftsmen/women out there.
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 5:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Getzen wrote:
I have to echo the opposite of what OldSchoolEuph said. Indeed, ...


opposite or inverse? I read through everything about 3 times looking for a disagreement, but it looks like we agree completely. (I'm not used to that generally!)
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Getzen
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 6:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OldSchoolEuph wrote:
Getzen wrote:
I have to echo the opposite of what OldSchoolEuph said. Indeed, ...


opposite or inverse? I read through everything about 3 times looking for a disagreement, but it looks like we agree completely. (I'm not used to that generally!)


Inverse would be the better word. How about opposite side of the same coin? Sorry, not enough coffee yet this morning.

And I wouldn't say we disagree. More like differing opinions. Isn't that what the internet is for?
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