• FAQ  • Search  • Memberlist  • Usergroups   • Register   • Profile  • Log in to check your private messages  • Log in 

Nickel vs Monel


Goto page Previous  1, 2
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Horns
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Grits Burgh
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 04 Oct 2015
Posts: 805
Location: South Carolina

PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 7:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Getzen wrote:
Thank you very much for the order. What are you getting and where did you order it?

Believe me, the last thing you want me to do is go out and work on your cornet. My factory days are long behind me. Despite how much I miss it, at this point, I would just get in the way of the real craftsmen/women out there.


I ordered a 3810 C Cornet from Brook Mays in Texas. I can't wait to play it at church. The order got fouled up, but I think that they finally got it to you, or at least they should get it to you shortly. As soon as I can slip it by my beloved spouse, I plan to get an 800DLX Eterna to go with it. Your cornets make me happy.

Warm regards,
Grits
_________________
Bach Stradivarius 37 (1971)
Schilke HC 1
Getzen 3810 C Cornet
King Master Bb Cornet (1945)
B&S 3145 Challenger I Series Flugelhorn
Life is short; buy every horn you want and die happy.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Rod Haney
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 22 Aug 2015
Posts: 937

PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 10:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

How are nickel plated superior to stainless?stainless is a much more hard material and less likely to suffer scratches and marks. Do they in fact wear the casings unduly? I have always preferred stainless to any other valves and feel they do show less wear over time. It would seem to me a little harder to work. Please educate me with this.
Thanks,
Rod
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
JayKosta
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 24 Dec 2018
Posts: 3276
Location: Endwell NY USA

PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rod Haney wrote:
How are nickel plated superior to stainless?stainless is a much more hard material and less likely to suffer scratches and marks. ...

----------------------------------
My understanding (from google search about ROCKWELL hardness of nickel plate and stainless steel) is that nickel plating is significantly harder than stainless steel.
The 'nickel-silver' brass alloy (of nickel and copper) is softer than stainless, but that is different than nickel plating.
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Divitt Trumpets
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 11 Aug 2015
Posts: 519
Location: Toronto

PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 10:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JayKosta wrote:
Rod Haney wrote:
How are nickel plated superior to stainless?stainless is a much more hard material and less likely to suffer scratches and marks. ...

----------------------------------
My understanding (from google search about ROCKWELL hardness of nickel plate and stainless steel) is that nickel plating is significantly harder than stainless steel.
The 'nickel-silver' brass alloy (of nickel and copper) is softer than stainless, but that is different than nickel plating.


Nickel plating also has high lubricity, which is why they feel so dang smooth.
_________________
www.divitt-trumpets.com
www.facebook.com/divitt.trumpets
www.instagram.com/divitttrumpets
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
yourbrass
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 12 Jun 2011
Posts: 3619
Location: Pacifica, CA, USA

PostPosted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nickel-plated valves, properly fitted, are it. There's a reason most manufacturers won't do that - far too labor intensive.
_________________
"Strive for tone." -John Coppola
Edwards X-13
ACB MV3C /ACB A1/26 backbore
https://yourbrass.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
BraeGrimes
Veteran Member


Joined: 14 Apr 2011
Posts: 269
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yourbrass wrote:
Nickel-plated valves, properly fitted, are it. There's a reason most manufacturers won't do that - far too labor intensive.


I can honestly say, it's not more labour intensive to fit nickel plated valves. It's cheaper to nickel-plate valves too (and replate them, which is kind of the beauty of it). I know Getzen has an article explaining the differences (https://getzen.com/2006/03/04/nickel-vs-monel-the-battle-rages-on/) but a lot of it is spin, including the claim "The hard, smooth surface created by the nickel plating protects the piston... The soft areas caused by brazing [on monel pistons] quickly wear creating microscopic pits. These pits act as tiny little hooks grabbing on to acid and dirt causing corrosion to spread quickly over the piston. In the end, you’re left with a piston surface that’s more like sandpaper than a bearing." - no evidence to support this claim, very dubious. Also, Trumpet X in their tests... could be a Bach, Yamaha, Jupiter, Eastman, Shires, Schagerl...

Realistically, I have nothing against nickel-plated valves and still think that a well made valve will work great no matter what it's made of or plated with (within reason). For me, Monel holds oil better and I'm lazy (most are). That's the only reason I prefer it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Getzen
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 25 Feb 2004
Posts: 1907

PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2021 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BraeGrimes wrote:
yourbrass wrote:
Nickel-plated valves, properly fitted, are it. There's a reason most manufacturers won't do that - far too labor intensive.


I can honestly say, it's not more labour intensive to fit nickel plated valves. It's cheaper to nickel-plate valves too (and replate them, which is kind of the beauty of it). I know Getzen has an article explaining the differences (https://getzen.com/2006/03/04/nickel-vs-monel-the-battle-rages-on/) but a lot of it is spin, including the claim "The hard, smooth surface created by the nickel plating protects the piston... The soft areas caused by brazing [on monel pistons] quickly wear creating microscopic pits. These pits act as tiny little hooks grabbing on to acid and dirt causing corrosion to spread quickly over the piston. In the end, you’re left with a piston surface that’s more like sandpaper than a bearing." - no evidence to support this claim, very dubious. Also, Trumpet X in their tests... could be a Bach, Yamaha, Jupiter, Eastman, Shires, Schagerl...

Realistically, I have nothing against nickel-plated valves and still think that a well made valve will work great no matter what it's made of or plated with (within reason). For me, Monel holds oil better and I'm lazy (most are). That's the only reason I prefer it.


First off, plating anything is more expensive than not plating it. Especially here the the States. Extremely strict and costly environmental regulations, labor involved, maintaining tanks, etc... Why do you think so many people use plating shops like Anderson rather than doing it in house?

Second, we have made both monel and nickel plated, nickel silver pistons. Fitting is basically the same, but overall I can tell you which is more expensive.

Third, there is proof of hardness post brazing. The article includes hardness testing results. And I think the test results and photos are proof enough of which surface is more corrosion resistant.

As for the brand of Trumpet X, that was intentionally left out. This was a Getzen vs monel test. Not Getzen vs Bach or Yamaha or Shires etc...

I’ll stand by the test results. Note, I’ve never seen another manufacturer perform a similar test that show otherwise. At least not one made public.
_________________
Brett Getzen
President
Getzen Company

Follow Getzen on:
Facebook https://www.facebook.com/getzencompany/

Twitter https://twitter.com/GetzenCompany

If you have a question please feel free to email me at brett@getzen.com.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Horns All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2
Page 2 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group