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Bach 3C player - exploring mouthpieces both sides of it


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x9ret
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 9:31 pm    Post subject: Bach 3C player - exploring mouthpieces both sides of it Reply with quote

I am not a fan of mouthpiece switching. I like to stay with a mouthpiece for the long-term... however... from time to time feel like exploring.

Currently use 3C on my Bb. Happy with this overall. For classical I use 3B.

I use a 3D on my Eb trumpet. Might try 3D on Bb trumpet for more zing for big band lead playing but some even suggest 3E.

A few years ago I sold a schilke 14A4a. However my high range technique has improved since then so am thinking of trying it again now but a part of me says I must have sold it for a reason...

On the other range of the spectrum, am thinking about trying 3A for classical playing rather than 3B. I tried years ago with 3 but that was tiring. Any thoughts on 3A?

Please don't suggest Curry or Warburton mouthpieces they don't seem to be in the UK much.
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loweredsixth
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 9:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bach doesn’t make a 3A as a standard size. Im sure they could make a custom one…maybe fitting a 3C rim to a 5A cup.
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delano
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 11:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

loweredsixth is right. Anyway, when a 3 no letter is tiring there is a certain logic a 3A will even be more tiring (deeper cup, bigger 24 bb).
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falado
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 4:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi, try a Curry 3BC. I tried playing a Bach Symphonic 1 1/2C, but it's just too big for my lips. I tried the Curry 3BC on a suggestion and viola, nearly the same sound with less effort. Curry also makes a 3 with shallower cups, but the same rim. I currently use my 3BC for everything.

Dave
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x9ret
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 7:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

delano wrote:
loweredsixth is right. Anyway, when a 3 no letter is tiring there is a certain logic a 3A will even be more tiring (deeper cup, bigger 24 bb).


OK, well the lettering does not describe the spectrum I thought it was then...
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Andy Cooper
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 10:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Keep in mind that the Bach 3 series mouthpieces all have different rims. Well - the 3D and 3B may be kind of close. The Bach 5 series rims are a lot closer to each other.
http://kanstul.com/MPcompare/MouthpieceComparator.html

Other mouthpieces - Joseph Kier USA models
Denis Wick 4 series
Yamaha 14 series - have not played them all. The rims are supposed to be the same. The 14C4 is a lot like a Bach 3B with a different backbore. (With the 14A4A you could purchase a top from Mouthpieceexpress.com and a bigger threaded backbore such as the Yamaha C.)
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 12:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andy Cooper wrote:
Keep in mind that the Bach 3 series mouthpieces all have different rims. Well - the 3D and 3B may be kind of close. The Bach 5 series rims are a lot closer to each other.
http://kanstul.com/MPcompare/MouthpieceComparator.html

Other mouthpieces - Joseph Kier USA models
Denis Wick 4 series
Yamaha 14 series - have not played them all. The rims are supposed to be the same. The 14C4 is a lot like a Bach 3B with a different backbore. (With the 14A4A you could purchase a top from Mouthpieceexpress.com and a bigger threaded backbore such as the Yamaha C.)

Exactly.

Bach sizes give the impression that they're a consistent progression of increasing deeper cups, but that is not the case. It's more or less a universe of individual models that are grouped together by similar diameters under the same number (like "3"), but beyond that, have little in common.

The 3D is not a shallower 3C, because the rim is different. The 3B is not just a deeper 3C. They all have different rims, somewhat different cup shapes.

Other numbers - like the "5" mouthpieces are even more diverse.

I know you mentioned not wanting to deal with Curry, but he actually has a progression of mouthpieces with the same rim shape with differing cup depths. Yamaha might as well. Bach does not.

Andy's post above has some good suggestions.
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gwood66
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

May want to try the GR 66 series. I switched to GR from Bach 3C/Yamaha Shew Jazz. I play a 66M through 66SZ. They all have the same rim.
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x9ret
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Crazy Finn wrote:

Bach sizes give the impression that they're a consistent progression of increasing deeper cups, but that is not the case. It's more or less a universe of individual models that are grouped together by similar diameters under the same number (like "3"), but beyond that, have little in common.


Thank you that's useful to know.
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

x9ret wrote:
Crazy Finn wrote:

Bach sizes give the impression that they're a consistent progression of increasing deeper cups, but that is not the case. It's more or less a universe of individual models that are grouped together by similar diameters under the same number (like "3"), but beyond that, have little in common.


Thank you that's useful to know.

A final elaboration on that point is that there's no consistency in the cups. The "C" cup in a 3C is shallower than the "C" cup in the 5C or 7C.

Again, this isn't a knock on the mouthpieces themselves. Individually, they are solid pieces that have stood the test of time. They're fine mouthpieces and I have used a few for any number of years. There are several sizes that are popular with professionals and semi-professionals and have been for decades.

However, Bach labeling and catalog gives the impression there's some sort of system and logic to it when the reality is that this simply isn't the case.
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trickg
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had a lot of luck using a Schilke 14A4 - different than the 14A4a in that it utilizes the more open "c" backbore - for a lot of years. It wasn't nearly as tight as the 14A4a.

I had a bigger sound, better intonation when pushing it in my upper register, and it just seemed to get the job done for a lot of years. I ended up on a Warburton 4SVW on a KT backbore, but only because I was looking for a bit more bite on the rim to hopefully improve accuracy, which it seemed to.

It'd be an easy mouthpiece to find and try.
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Crazy Finn wrote:
The 3D is not a shallower 3C, because the rim is different.

When my teacher wanted a shallower 3C he had a favorite rim cut and threaded. Then he took a favorite 3C, cut the rim off and then shortened the cup before threading it.
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Halflip
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 2:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

x9ret wrote:
OK, well the lettering does not describe the spectrum I thought it was then...


You apparently were thinking that a Bach 'A' cup would be shallower than a 'no letter' cup but deeper than a 'B' cup.

Just FYI, the Bach mouthpiece manual 'Key To Trumpet, Cornet and Flugelhorn Model Numbers' states, "Cup depths are notated with letters. 'A' cups are the deepest; standard cups have no letter designation; progressively shallower cups are marked 'B' through 'F'." I guess they chose to denote the deepest cups with an 'A' to stress that they are deep beyond what Bach considered "standard".

(Please note that I am not refuting previous statements by other posters on this thread regarding Bach variance in rim shape for different cup depths, inconsistency in depth for a given letter designation across different rim sizes, and so on. All these observations are true.)
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Trumpetstud
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 26, 2021 11:27 am    Post subject: Bach 3 MP Reply with quote

I read that Chris Botti used an old 3C mp. I think like a 1920. Is there a difference in a current and a 1920? shouldn't a 3C be a 3C?
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 26, 2021 11:53 am    Post subject: Re: Bach 3 MP Reply with quote

Trumpetstud wrote:
I read that Chris Botti used an old 3C mp. I think like a 1920. Is there a difference in a current and a 1920? shouldn't a 3C be a 3C?

I think actually he uses an old NY Bach "3". No "C".

If you want to look at differences, here's one way...

http://kanstul.com/MPcompare/MouthpieceComparator.html
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A.N.A.Mendez
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 26, 2021 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I prefer the 2 1/2 C

I don't know why......
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Vin DiBona
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 26, 2021 12:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Botti used an original 3C from the 1920s. He then went to a 1920s straight 3.
Bach mouthpieces have changed considerably since he began making mouthpieces in the late teens. Most of the very early models were custom made for specific players.
As time went along, Bach would incorporate these old designs in his new mouthpiece.
Since then, some numbered models have evolved. Some for the good, others not so much.
Vincent Bach was a genius. He realized you couldn't always expect the same rim on different cups in the same size series, ie the 3 size, and adjusted the rims to accommodate the difference in the cup shape and depth.
With modern computerized lathes, manufacturers can use the same rim on different cups in the same size. These manufacturer's make the subtle adjustments or these mouthpiece shapes might not work.
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 26, 2021 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vin DiBona wrote:
...
Vincent Bach was a genius. He realized you couldn't always expect the same rim on different cups in the same size series, ie the 3 size, and adjusted the rims to accommodate the difference in the cup shape and depth. ...

---------------------------
I don't understand what you mean by "He realized you couldn't always expect the same rim on different cups in the same size series" - why not? The only section of the rim that would be affected is perhaps the small transition from the 'lower inner section' of the rim to the cup wall.

Perhaps it's that V. Bach couldn't be expected to use the same rim on all the different sized cups of the same size. That would follow from the idea that the various rim and cup designs derived from specific mouthpieces made for different individuals.
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Vin DiBona
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 27, 2021 6:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is a sentence that isn't worded as precisely as it should have been.
The identical rim on his different cups in the same size did not provide the sound or response a slightly different rim would. Keep in mind his clients were top professionals and gave him feedback. He would make adjustments based on what the needed.
I have mouthpieces from today's manufacturers that have the identical rims, but different cups. Some of the cups work well, other cups don't really work for me.
As a GR dealer, I found I can easily handle M cups and C cups, but not smaller than the M or larger than the C cups.
Why? The initial angle (alpha) is different. The M and C cups alpha angles fit my embouchure better.
Bach knew of that 80 years ago.
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Irving
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 27, 2021 8:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It would be hard to second guess why Bach didn't use the same rim for each family. Bach also offered screw rkms for those players that wanted thd same rim on each cup. What Vin said about alpha angles is completely subjective. What might work for him might not work for somebody else. Maybe some of the Bach experts here can enlighten us?
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