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Bach 3C player - exploring mouthpieces both sides of it


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Brassnose
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 27, 2021 10:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I second the suggestion of looking into Klier USA, Curry, and GR pieces. Excellent, very consistent, comfortable, and I think readily available in the US. Plus there IS a logic and identical rims within the respective series.

Interesting fact about the Bach pieces, I never knew they had no logic.
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Irving
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 27, 2021 12:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is logic. The cups to progress from deeper to shallower WITHIN THE SAME FAMILY. That doesn't mean that a 7C has the same cup as a 3C. It means that the 7B is deeper than the 7C,and the 3B is deeper than the 3C. Plus the width of the cups progress from large to small, from the 1 to the 20C. Very logical. The rims are unique on every model. This is where Bach is different from almost any brand. Apparently, it made sense to Bach. We don't know why he designed his mouthpieces like this. To top it off, over the years, the rims have changed, probably more than any other component. Selmer took over in the 60's and probably had something to do with the rim changes, although, they might have already been changing. Plus they used to be hand made. His mouthpieces are still widely used today. Not bad for a 100 year old design.
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x9ret
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2021 10:00 am    Post subject: Re: Bach 3C player - exploring mouthpieces both sides of it Reply with quote

x9ret wrote:

I use a 3D on my Eb trumpet. Might try 3D on Bb trumpet for more zing for big band lead playing but some even suggest 3E.


Hmm I tried this a couple of weeks ago, the 3D on Bb, but didn't really make an immediate impact for me, although I will try it again. Too nervous to spend on a 3E if 3D doesn't help much...
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HackAmateur
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2021 6:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Bach 3C player - exploring mouthpieces both sides of it Reply with quote

x9ret wrote:
I am not a fan of mouthpiece switching. I like to stay with a mouthpiece for the long-term... however... from time to time feel like exploring.

Currently use 3C on my Bb. Happy with this overall. For classical I use 3B.

I use a 3D on my Eb trumpet. Might try 3D on Bb trumpet for more zing for big band lead playing but some even suggest 3E.

A few years ago I sold a schilke 14A4a. However my high range technique has improved since then so am thinking of trying it again now but a part of me says I must have sold it for a reason...

On the other range of the spectrum, am thinking about trying 3A for classical playing rather than 3B. I tried years ago with 3 but that was tiring. Any thoughts on 3A?

Please don't suggest Curry or Warburton mouthpieces they don't seem to be in the UK much.


I think the difference in rim between 3A and other Bach 3 mouthpieces might throw off your embouchure a little when switching back and forth.

Personally, my preference, if I get a new mouthpiece, is to have the same rim as my normal mouthpiece threaded onto a custom mouthpiece. But, I don't know what your budget is... having that done is more expensive than just buying standard new mouthpiece.

I don't like changing rims. The 3A's rim is gonna be different, so just be advised about that... speaking of 3A, if you DON'T CARE about the rim difference, why not try Bach 1.5? Jumping to 3A doesn't make a lot of sense to me if you're trying to improve your classical chops.

If you can, test out a 3A and a 1.5. The 1.5 will likely be a better fit, but it does depend on you, the individual player, at the end of the day.
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2021 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brassnose wrote:
Interesting fact about the Bach pieces, I never knew they had no logic.


Irving wrote:
There is logic. The cups to progress from deeper to shallower WITHIN THE SAME FAMILY. That doesn't mean that a 7C has the same cup as a 3C. It means that the 7B is deeper than the 7C,and the 3B is deeper than the 3C. Plus the width of the cups progress from large to small, from the 1 to the 20C. Very logical. The rims are unique on every model. This is where Bach is different from almost any brand.


Hmm...

I agree, Bach mouthpieces are number and cataloged logically.

What they're not is a consistent graduated system - which people imply from a cursory glance, and frankly, a thought that seems to be pervasive in the trumpet community.

Even on this - and many threads - people assume that the 3D and 3E are shallower versions of the 3C. They're not. They ARE shallower, though. They're just different pieces, roughly the same diameter, that are shallower.

It's basically a bunch of individual mouthpiece models, grouped roughly by diameter and depth by numbers and letters.

Again, this is not a knock on the mouthpieces themselves, or even the categorization of them. It's basically to try to enlighten people to this reality as opposed to thinking it's a systemic, graduated, consistent brand of mouthpieces - just because it might seem like it with the numbers and letters.

Schilke isn't not much different, though they use more numbers and letters to try to illustrate this point. Again, no knock on the mouthpieces.
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dstpt
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2021 11:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another option to consider is the ACB MV 3C. A former college student of mine was buying/trading/selling some original Bach Mt. Vernon mpcs, mainly 1.5C & 3C mpcs, and picked up one of these. He prefers the Modern blank version, while I find the Traditional blank to work slightly better. I've played on rim sizes ranging from 1, 1.25, 2, and 3, and the ACB version of the Mt. Vernon 3C is really something I'd encourage anyone playing something close to that to consider trying. Trent scanned four different original Bach MV 3C mpcs and combined their best aspects...

https://www.austincustombrass.biz/austin-custom-brass-mv-3c-special-mouthpieces/

It has a #26 throat. After playing on a Greg Black 1.25C for the previous 8 years, I did not think that moving to a narrower rim would work for me...but it did. Trent mentioned at TMEA 2020 that this mpc seems to be an answer for players who are on both sides of this rim size, Bach 7 to 5 to 3 to 1.5 to 1.25 to 1. Since making the switch in January 2020, I have contrasted and compared many other mpcs (because that's what we do!), and I still haven't found one that eclipses it for my symphonic playing. It's kind of freaky that it works so well, actually.
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x9ret
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2021 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Does anyone here play with a 3A? I once had a 3 but it was rather deep and tiring. The 3B might be too shallow sometimes. Hmm.
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2021 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

x9ret wrote:
Does anyone here play with a 3A? I once had a 3 but it was rather deep and tiring. The 3B might be too shallow sometimes. Hmm.

The real problem is that I don't believe Bach makes a 3A.

There's a Bach 3, 3B, 3C, 3CW, 3D, 3E, and 3F. There's no 3A, I'm aware of.

https://www.bachbrass.com/application/files/4614/8521/7763/AV2BA901_Original_1889_web.pdf
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Brassnose
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2021 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I’d also like to throw AR Resonance in the mix. Excellent pieces and Tony gets back with answers within the hour if you have questions (and if he is awake at the time). Will probably order a new AR piece for my rotary.

Brilliant pieces really and none of the issues people seem to have with Lotus, as I read in another thread - reliable, ordering and delivery works, no hot air when talking to the company, logical numbering, probably the best pieces I have played (for two years now, so honeymoon is over ).
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Halflip
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2021 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

x9ret wrote:
Does anyone here play with a 3A? I once had a 3 but it was rather deep and tiring. The 3B might be too shallow sometimes. Hmm.


You apparently were thinking that a Bach 'A' cup would be shallower than a 'no letter' cup but deeper than a 'B' cup.

Just FYI, the Bach mouthpiece manual 'Key To Trumpet, Cornet and Flugelhorn Model Numbers' states, "Cup depths are notated with letters. 'A' cups are the deepest; standard cups have no letter designation; progressively shallower cups are marked 'B' through 'F'." I guess they chose to denote the deepest cups with an 'A' to stress that they are deep beyond what Bach considered "standard".

If you find the 3 "rather deep and tiring", you would find a 3A even more deep and tiring (assuming that they even make a 3A).
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delano
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2021 11:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

x9ret is trolling, don't you see that?
We are back on the first post.
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Halflip
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2021 11:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

delano wrote:
x9ret is trolling, don't you see that?
We are back on the first post.


Ah. Thanks. Seems kind of pointless.
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x9ret
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2021 5:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No I'm not trolling. What a horrible thing to say. I remember someone on this forum referring to a 3A sometime.
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x9ret
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2021 5:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Halflip wrote:

If you find the 3 "rather deep and tiring", you would find a 3A even more deep and tiring (assuming that they even make a 3A).


Thanks, that makes sense. A pity really.
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delano
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2021 8:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

x9ret wrote:
No I'm not trolling. What a horrible thing to say. I remember someone on this forum referring to a 3A sometime.


If that's such a horrible thing for you I'll give you the service to repeat post 2 and 3 of this thread both dated june 22:

loweredsixth
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 9:46 pm

Bach doesn’t make a 3A as a standard size. Im sure they could make a custom one…maybe fitting a 3C rim to a 5A cup.

delano
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 11:55 pm

loweredsixth is right. Anyway, when a 3 no letter is tiring there is a certain logic a 3A will even be more tiring (deeper cup, bigger 24 bb).


Do you really want to start this over and over again?
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2021 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

x9ret wrote:
No I'm not trolling. What a horrible thing to say. I remember someone on this forum referring to a 3A sometime.

It might have been you?

Or maybe not.
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Chadwick
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2021 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

x9ret wrote:
No I'm not trolling. What a horrible thing to say. I remember someone on this forum referring to a 3A sometime.


It looks like the Bach 3 cup and the 5A cup are about the same depth and shape. So maybe the absence of a letter denotes an A-equivalent cup? And according to PDF Page 10 of the Bach manual and in delano’s post above, there’s a difference in the backbore of the unmarked 3 vs the marked 5 “A” cup.


Last edited by Chadwick on Fri Aug 13, 2021 5:08 pm; edited 1 time in total
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HackAmateur
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2021 6:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Bach 3C player - exploring mouthpieces both sides of it Reply with quote

x9ret wrote:
I am not a fan of mouthpiece switching. I like to stay with a mouthpiece for the long-term... however... from time to time feel like exploring.

Currently use 3C on my Bb. Happy with this overall. For classical I use 3B.

I use a 3D on my Eb trumpet. Might try 3D on Bb trumpet for more zing for big band lead playing but some even suggest 3E.

A few years ago I sold a schilke 14A4a. However my high range technique has improved since then so am thinking of trying it again now but a part of me says I must have sold it for a reason...

On the other range of the spectrum, am thinking about trying 3A for classical playing rather than 3B. I tried years ago with 3 but that was tiring. Any thoughts on 3A?

Please don't suggest Curry or Warburton mouthpieces they don't seem to be in the UK much.


Let's see... for classical playing, a Bach mouthpiece? I'd suggest the Bach 1.5C for that, nothing in the Bach 3 family. But, I suppose it's possible you could make a Bach 3A work for you.

Any larger of a piece and it would feel like a bathtub in comparison to your Bach 3C most likely. But, there's an advantage to playing on those larger mouthpieces such as the Bach 1.5C... the advantage is you can build endurance on those just by playing normal etudes and normal classical repertoire for trumpet.

Then, when you switch back over to your Bach 3C, you'll notice a huge endurance boost if you switch between a 3C and a 1.5C often enough. I'd say play on the large classical piece at least once a week for a FULL day of practice to make sure you're keeping that large mouthpiece endurance-buff active. haha

Now, if you're feeling adventurous in terms of brand swtiching, the Schilke 14 and Schilke 15 are both good for classical playing. I personally use a Schilke 15 as my "all-around" mouthpiece and for whenever I'm playing classical or 'concert band' type of stuff. I switch between it and a Bob Reeves with a Schilke 15 rim. The endurance benefits from the Schilke 15, for me, are huge, and very transferable to my commercial custom mouthpiece!

But if you don't wanna do Schilke or any brand change, you ought to try that Bach 1.5C. I doubt you'll be horribly disappointed, and if it's "tiring" to play on at first, don't worry about it. You're building endurance. It won't be "tiring" forever.
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As a composer, I will never write "B Sharp", "C Flat", "E Sharp", or "F Flat". I don't care what the key signature is. I'm not an academic; I'm a musician.

-Bach Strad 180 series 37
-Schilke 15
-Bob Reeves s692s w/ custom rim
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x9ret
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2021 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks HackAmateur. I am not having such a secure low register with 3B or 3C as I would like especially when I play studies... do you think 1.5C would assist with that? The studies get up to high D only, which I can get comfortably enough on any mouthpiece... so the high range is not a concern here, thanks
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2021 7:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Bach 3C player - exploring mouthpieces both sides of it Reply with quote

HackAmateur wrote:
Let's see... for classical playing, a Bach mouthpiece? I'd suggest the Bach 1.5C for that, nothing in the Bach 3 family. But, I suppose it's possible you could make a Bach 3A work for you.

Any larger of a piece and it would feel like a bathtub in comparison to your Bach 3C most likely. But, there's an advantage to playing on those larger mouthpieces such as the Bach 1.5C... the advantage is you can build endurance on those just by playing normal etudes and normal classical repertoire for trumpet.

x9ret wrote:
Thanks HackAmateur. I am not having such a secure low register with 3B or 3C as I would like especially when I play studies... do you think 1.5C would assist with that? The studies get up to high D only, which I can get comfortably enough on any mouthpiece... so the high range is not a concern here, thanks

Hmm.....

Unless you're auditioning for regional or major orchestras, you don't need to play a 1 1/2C for classical rep. You can, of course, but you don't need to. Frankly, there are even professional classical players that play on less wide pieces.

The 3B can work fine for classical playing, though it's possible a 1 1/2C could feel better for you as it's proportions are a bit different. The 3A, as stated before, doesn't exist.

But, frankly, it doesn't matter what those guys play, you're not those guys. Play on what works best for you.

"nothing from the 3 family..." Good god.

That said, you can try a Bach 1 1/2 C, it's worth a blow, because it's not that far removed from a 3C. I used to play bored out 1C, but my college prof moved me back to a 3C after listening to me for a month. The Schilke 15 and 14 are worthy options in that range, as is the plain "13" if the others feel too big. Yamaha makes affordable mouthpieces as well as Stork and many others.

I'm not sure playing on a larger piece actually "builds more endurance" than playing on a smaller piece. Actually, I'm fairly sure it doesn't.

Practicing of any kind builds endurance.

Getting the right sound for "classical" playing - whatever that is - as there is a lot of different things within that is mostly a matter of one's sound concept and approach. Having equipment that facilitates that to a degree is helpful (as in don't play principal with a screamer mouthpiece and a horn designed for lead trumpet or a flugel-stye piece and a horn outfitted for combo ballads). But, most of it is finding equipment that fits your playing and face and having the right approach.

I've played lead trumpet in college jazz band and in a regional professional orchestra with literally the same equipment - same horn, mouthpiece, the whole bit. Granted, I'm not a great lead player, but I could do an approximation of that sound and style with little problem - just limited by my unexceptional range.

If you don't have the right sound concept and approach, it doesn't matter what your equipment is.

Good luck.
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