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Cryogenic Freezing Experience?



 
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picctpt33
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2021 3:44 pm    Post subject: Cryogenic Freezing Experience? Reply with quote

Can anyone provide their experiences with cryogenically freezing a horn? How did it change the way your horn played?
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2021 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wondered about this recently. A fair number of years ago this was a topic discussed on here pretty often. But recently isn’t mentioned at all (until now).
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ebolton
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2021 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As a mechanical engineer by trade who for many years specialized in adapting equipment to extreme environments I have a tough time believing freezing a horn then thawing it out would have any noticeable effects beyond maybe some temporary sticking of the valves.

Melting it would be a different story.

I didn't know trumpet cryo was a thing. I'm interested in seeing what the earnest replies suggest.
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2021 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cryogenic treatment explained by Bob Malone

You can also read other threads using the search term “site:trumpetherald.com cryo” in your favorite search engine.

(Not trying to shut down discussion, just “teaching people to fish”.)
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etc-etc
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2021 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LittleRusty wrote:
Cryogenic treatment explained by Bob Malone

You can also read other threads using the search term “site:trumpetherald.com cryo” in your favorite search engine.

(Not trying to shut down discussion, just “teaching people to fish”.)


You can try using this link as the original link is gone.

As I understand it, cryogenic relaxation can only affect parts of trumpet that are made of dissimilar materials, particularly, solder joints. Plasma-welded bells, in contrast, do not contain dissimilar materials (other than copper and zinc in the alloy) and would not be susceptible to cryogenics relaxation.

Due to unequal thermal expansion coefficients of brass and solder, soldered joints develop stress after soldering (they would have no stress at the moment of soldering when solder is liquid; stress would develop in process of cooling to normal temperature).

Cryogenic relaxation subjects the horn to extremely low temperatures. Under these low temperatures, solder can (a) become brittle and (b) may creep against the brass. Return to the normal temperatures results in weakened and destressed solder joints, promoting high-frequency vibrations ("buzz") of the soldered components that can be seen in sound spectra:

[img]https://web.archive.org/web/20120413165747im_/http://yamahawinds.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/cryo-gp-high-note-freeze1.jpg?w=406[/img] (image is visible on the archive.org but not when linked to in TH)

[img]https://web.archive.org/web/20120413165747im_/http://yamahawinds.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/stock-rgs-high-note-freeze.jpg?w=406[/img](image is visible on the archive.org but not when linked to in TH)

I would assume higher frequencies to become stronger in a cryogenically relaxed horn as weakened joints lead to shorter effective lengths of decoupled components.
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2021 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

etc-etc wrote:
LittleRusty wrote:
Cryogenic treatment explained by Bob Malone

You can also read other threads using the search term “site:trumpetherald.com cryo” in your favorite search engine.

(Not trying to shut down discussion, just “teaching people to fish”.)


You can try using this link as the original link is gone.

As I understand it, cryogenic relaxation can only affect parts of trumpet that are made of dissimilar materials, particularly, solder joints. Plasma-welded bells, in contrast, do not contain dissimilar materials (other than copper and zinc in the alloy) and would not be susceptible to cryogenics relaxation.

Due to unequal thermal expansion coefficients of brass and solder, soldered joints develop stress after soldering (they would have no stress at the moment of soldering when solder is liquid; stress would develop in process of cooling to normal temperature).

Cryogenic relaxation subjects the horn to extremely low temperatures. Under these low temperatures, solder can (a) become brittle and (b) may creep against the brass. Return to the normal temperatures results in weakened and destressed solder joints, promoting high-frequency vibrations ("buzz") of the soldered components that can be seen in sound spectra:

[img]https://web.archive.org/web/20120413165747im_/http://yamahawinds.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/cryo-gp-high-note-freeze1.jpg?w=406[/img] (image is visible on the archive.org but not when linked to in TH)

[img]https://web.archive.org/web/20120413165747im_/http://yamahawinds.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/stock-rgs-high-note-freeze.jpg?w=406[/img](image is visible on the archive.org but not when linked to in TH)

I would assume higher frequencies to become stronger in a cryogenically relaxed horn as weakened joints lead to shorter effective lengths of decoupled components.

Thanks. I didn’t click through to check out the link.
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zaferis
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2021 3:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A long time ago, I had a Bach C frozen by Osmun Music. The trumpet came back playing better. Much more lively / resonant.. But at the same, time Osmun had converted the leadpipe to a "reversed" setup, to do so had to move the bell brace. In combination the 3 alterations improved the 180229 considerably.
Impossible to isolate which mod had what impact.
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HaveTrumpetWillTravel
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2021 4:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I read the old thread. This is a New York Times article from 18 years ago, possibly behind a paywall, that reported the study Selmer had commissioned saying it doesn't work:
https://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/18/science/hot-sounds-from-a-cold-trumpet-cryogenic-theory-falls-flat.html

James Becker thought that using instruments people weren't familiar with ruins the results.

I don't see why someone can't get 20 trumpet players, cryofreeze 10 and have a placebo for the other 10 (say, store in a refrigerator over a weekend). I'm guessing there's no discernible result.

Placebos do work in other ways. Even in studies where doctors say "this is a placebo," patients still often report significant improvement. I'd guess that's what happening here.
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loudog
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2021 6:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There was a pretty good study done YEARS ago (early 2000's, maybe?), when Wayne Tanabe was at the Brass Bow still, pre-Yamaha, done by the TPIN group. If I recall, Wayne was one of the originators of this process.

Anyway, the results were mixed...some instruments the difference was big, others, not so much.

I'm sure it's findable, people tend to catalog this sort of thing.

Who is still doing cryo treatments on trumpet?
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dstpt
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2021 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have uploaded a .pdf document of some notes I have compiled on the subject. You can find it at this time on this Dropbox link...

https://www.dropbox.com/s/3n5untt125x2flv/Cryogenic%20Treatment%20of%20Trumpets.pdf?dl=0

It is long!
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picctpt33
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2021 9:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you, dstpt, that’s very helpful
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blbaumgarn
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2021 8:05 pm    Post subject: cryogenic freezing experience Reply with quote

My own cryogenic experience left me with the feeling that somehow I was
Han Solo.....................
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yourbrass
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2021 6:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

etc-etc wrote:
LittleRusty wrote:
Cryogenic treatment explained by Bob Malone

You can also read other threads using the search term “site:trumpetherald.com cryo” in your favorite search engine.

(Not trying to shut down discussion, just “teaching people to fish”.)


You can try using this link as the original link is gone.

As I understand it, cryogenic relaxation can only affect parts of trumpet that are made of dissimilar materials, particularly, solder joints. Plasma-welded bells, in contrast, do not contain dissimilar materials (other than copper and zinc in the alloy) and would not be susceptible to cryogenics relaxation.

Due to unequal thermal expansion coefficients of brass and solder, soldered joints develop stress after soldering (they would have no stress at the moment of soldering when solder is liquid; stress would develop in process of cooling to normal temperature).

Cryogenic relaxation subjects the horn to extremely low temperatures. Under these low temperatures, solder can (a) become brittle and (b) may creep against the brass. Return to the normal temperatures results in weakened and destressed solder joints, promoting high-frequency vibrations ("buzz") of the soldered components that can be seen in sound spectra:

[img]https://web.archive.org/web/20120413165747im_/http://yamahawinds.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/cryo-gp-high-note-freeze1.jpg?w=406[/img] (image is visible on the archive.org but not when linked to in TH)

[img]https://web.archive.org/web/20120413165747im_/http://yamahawinds.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/stock-rgs-high-note-freeze.jpg?w=406[/img](image is visible on the archive.org but not when linked to in TH)

I would assume higher frequencies to become stronger in a cryogenically relaxed horn as weakened joints lead to shorter effective lengths of decoupled components.


Wow, it would seem to be a terrible idea to me if solder joints are made brittle and/or weakened.by the freezing. I do know how critical a well-made solder joint is to the structural integrity of a horn.
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etc-etc
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2021 10:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

According to this paper:
https://www.mdpi.com/2076-3417/10/6/1951/pdf
the problem with cryogenic brittleness is typical of lead-free tin-based solders. Lead makes the solder much more ductile.

They also discuss the properties of the lead-free Sn-Ag-Cu solder.

Compared to soldering areas typical for trumpet, they consider much (easily 100x) smaller sized solder globules used in ball grid arrays for soldering computer memory. Still, the results are quite illuminating.
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