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Lip Slurs and Low Range


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OrangeDreamsicle
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 10, 2021 8:34 am    Post subject: Lip Slurs and Low Range Reply with quote

I have trouble with my low range sounding thin and sometimes getting a double buzz (generally my low Ab and below is my problem), and it seems as though once I get warmed up and do some long tones in my lower register to get it sounding good, it will start sounding bad once I get into my practice. I believe the problem is that I get too much tension throughout my practice and it pervades my lower register (especially after doing some lip slurs in my higher range). To combat this, I had the idea that whenever I play an exercise, I would do some slurs from my low C# to F# as essentially a long tone kind of exercise to make sure I'm still loosening up for those notes. I can gauge when I'm starting to build up too much tension in my practice, and I can also work on the tone of my lower register. What do you all think of this kind of approach? Do you have any commentary/tips for developing a resonant and -in general- enjoyable lower register to listen to?
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HackAmateur
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 10, 2021 8:56 am    Post subject: Re: Lip Slurs and Low Range Reply with quote

OrangeDreamsicle wrote:
I have trouble with my low range sounding thin and sometimes getting a double buzz (generally my low Ab and below is my problem), and it seems as though once I get warmed up and do some long tones in my lower register to get it sounding good, it will start sounding bad once I get into my practice. I believe the problem is that I get too much tension throughout my practice and it pervades my lower register (especially after doing some lip slurs in my higher range). To combat this, I had the idea that whenever I play an exercise, I would do some slurs from my low C# to F# as essentially a long tone kind of exercise to make sure I'm still loosening up for those notes. I can gauge when I'm starting to build up too much tension in my practice, and I can also work on the tone of my lower register. What do you all think of this kind of approach? Do you have any commentary/tips for developing a resonant and -in general- enjoyable lower register to listen to?


Okay, so I used to have this same issue. Although I'm curious as to what kind of mouthpiece you're using (with shallow cups, building strong low notes may be tougher), I've found that, in general, what I'm about to say will probably help you tremendously.

I'd recommend you to practice what I call "very low notes" (aka. "pedal notes"). HOW you practice pedal notes is going to make the real difference, though. I'm going to link you to a great pdf that's going to be very helpful in this.

https://idoc.pub/documents/claude-gordon-systematic-approach-to-daily-practice-6nq9kypyjqlw

This link is to the 'Claude Gordon Systematic Approach' book, a popular range-building method for trumpet. However, you should pay special attention to the instructions on Page 9 of this book. These are instructions on how to unlock your pedal note register.

Now, you may ask: why would this be helpful? The reason why this will probably be very helpful is because pedal notes are much more difficult than regular low notes to lock in the correct pitch and make a good sound.

So, the logic goes... if you can play pretty good pedal notes and control them properly (keep them in tune and correct pitch), and you can play them with a halfway decent tone, your REGULAR low notes will become much stronger (e.g., notes from Low C to Low F#).

This is exactly how I solved this same issue: by following the instructions of Page 9 of Claude Gordon Systematic Approach and incorporating Pedal Note practice into my daily routines.

Now, I can play all notes up to one octave BELOW regular low G, and my notes from low F# to low C are much more powerful. I can even add vibrato sometimes to low G and low F# thanks to practicing pedal notes.

You might find similar success.
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As a composer, I will never write "B Sharp", "C Flat", "E Sharp", or "F Flat". I don't care what the key signature is. I'm not an academic; I'm a musician.

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joelf
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 10, 2021 12:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Lip Slurs and Low Range Reply with quote

OrangeDreamsicle wrote:
...generally my low Ab and below is my problem...
I (a beginning player) can not get that Ab with a centered aperture---have to 'cheat': lips to the right of MP.

And if I'm not properly warmed up (I think that's a lot of it) sometimes I can't get Ab and G at all---just farty; belchy somethings. And it changes from day to day. But it is WAY better with a longer warm up, starting higher before getting to the Southland...
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 10, 2021 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Playing pedal tones are ONE of several things you can do.

These are the things required for helpful approach to pedals:

1. Use the same, most neutral embouchure set-up as you would for Low C. You will simply , and ONLY just relax the lip muscles more to achieve the pedals. Use the same OR LESS air effort as well. Pedals that are loud and raucous are counter-productive.

2. Play the pedal resonance and ONLY the pedal resonance until you can easily play it with as clean a tone as possible. And in control such that you can play an articulated tone and easily also play tones on low C down to low F sharp. (NOTE: The pedal resonance is right around a minor third below the expected octave on B-flat trumpet. It may be less flat on cornet and it certainly is about at the octave on Flugelhorn)

3. Do not play sustained "bent" tones down from the low C. (Such as 1st valve F ) these are NOT pedal resonances. EXCEPTION: Until you can play the pedal resonance you can do a moving bend from C and you may achieve the resonance pedal. It WILL BE about an A below the octave below low C. Sound the pitch on A below low C with correct fingering, 12, then lift the valves as you relax down and play the pedal resonance an octave below that pitch.

Once you can play the pedal resonance centered and open you can gain skill on it by descending with valves and then playing tongued and slurred exercises on the "valved" pedal resonances.[/quote]
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HackAmateur
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 10, 2021 1:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Lip Slurs and Low Range Reply with quote

joelf wrote:
OrangeDreamsicle wrote:
...generally my low Ab and below is my problem...
I (a beginning player) can not get that Ab with a centered aperture---have to 'cheat': lips to the right of MP.

And if I'm not properly warmed up (I think that's a lot of it) sometimes I can't get Ab and G at all---just farty; belchy somethings. And it changes from day to day. But it is WAY better with a longer warm up, starting higher before getting to the Southland...


I wouldn't recommend focusing too much on embouchure shifts as you get down to low notes. You ought to stay focused on producing a beautiful sound, in my opinion, and if something physical happens in your embouchure to make that beautiful sound happen, you probably shouldn't worry too much about it.

EDIT: To be clear, I mean SMALL changes you shouldn't worry about, like it your face pivots slightly to reach Low Ab.

By the way, I'd recommend you look into using Vincent Cichowicz Flow Studies as a warm-up, followed by long tones. As a beginner, the most important thing you ought to focus on is creating a beautiful sound, the most beautiful sound you can. It's the foundation of everything else.

If you don't have any clue what a beautiful tone sounds like, I'd recommend listening to various pro players playing solos until you find somebody whose tone you love. For me, Conrad Gozzo, Doc Severinsen, and Jesse McGuire have gorgeous tones. But somebody else might prefer the opposite kind of trumpet tone, such as Maurice Andre or Chris Botti. That's a different kind of beautiful tone than Doc Severinsen, but beauty is in the eye of the beholder (or listener).[/b][/i]
_________________
As a composer, I will never write "B Sharp", "C Flat", "E Sharp", or "F Flat". I don't care what the key signature is. I'm not an academic; I'm a musician.

-Bach Strad 180 series 37
-Schilke 15
-Bob Reeves s692s w/ custom rim


Last edited by HackAmateur on Sat Jul 10, 2021 1:38 pm; edited 1 time in total
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HackAmateur
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 10, 2021 1:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kalijah wrote:
Playing pedal tones are ONE of several things you can do.

These are the things required for helpful approach to pedals:

1. Use the same, most neutral embouchure set-up as you would for Low C. You will simply , and ONLY just relax the lip muscles more to achieve the pedals. Use the same OR LESS air effort as well. Pedals that are loud and raucous are counter-productive.


Absolutely correct!

I forgot to mention the OP should not make any insanely drastic changes to their regular embouchure setup when descending below Low F#.
_________________
As a composer, I will never write "B Sharp", "C Flat", "E Sharp", or "F Flat". I don't care what the key signature is. I'm not an academic; I'm a musician.

-Bach Strad 180 series 37
-Schilke 15
-Bob Reeves s692s w/ custom rim
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Tpt_Guy
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 10, 2021 5:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Lip Slurs and Low Range Reply with quote

HackAmateur wrote:
OrangeDreamsicle wrote:
I have trouble with my low range sounding thin and sometimes getting a double buzz (generally my low Ab and below is my problem), and it seems as though once I get warmed up and do some long tones in my lower register to get it sounding good, it will start sounding bad once I get into my practice. I believe the problem is that I get too much tension throughout my practice and it pervades my lower register (especially after doing some lip slurs in my higher range). To combat this, I had the idea that whenever I play an exercise, I would do some slurs from my low C# to F# as essentially a long tone kind of exercise to make sure I'm still loosening up for those notes. I can gauge when I'm starting to build up too much tension in my practice, and I can also work on the tone of my lower register. What do you all think of this kind of approach? Do you have any commentary/tips for developing a resonant and -in general- enjoyable lower register to listen to?


Okay, so I used to have this same issue. Although I'm curious as to what kind of mouthpiece you're using (with shallow cups, building strong low notes may be tougher), I've found that, in general, what I'm about to say will probably help you tremendously.


Interestingly enough, I've found in my own playing as well that a mouthpiece that is too deep (or too wide, for that matter) will require excess effort to play the middle and upper registers causing embouchure tightness, and my low register will suffer. Sometimes, a sliiiightly shallower or narrower mouthpiece can actually help the low register. Seems counterintuitive, I know.

Another factor is the undercut coming off the rim into the cup, which some call the alpha angle. This portion of the mouthpiece can either support or hinder one's playing. It the angle is too low, there is little support, the upper register can suffer, and tone can become a bit pinched from the excess effort required to play. Conversely, if the angle is too high, it can interfere with the vibration of the embouchure. If you are only having this issue after warming up, it is possible that the slight swelling of the lips that occurs when we play (due to increased blood flow and not necessarily inflammation) is resulting in the lips hitting into this portion of the mouthpiece and not vibrating freely. I personally have this issue with Bach B cups.

In truth, before making any meaningful recommendation, we would really need to know what you're playing and also how you're warming up.

But the longstanding (and best) recommendation you will find on this forum is:

Get a good teacher to help you through it.
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HackAmateur
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 10, 2021 5:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Lip Slurs and Low Range Reply with quote

Tpt_Guy wrote:


Interestingly enough, I've found in my own playing as well that a mouthpiece that is too deep (or too wide, for that matter) will require excess effort to play the middle and upper registers causing embouchure tightness, and my low register will suffer. Sometimes, a sliiiightly shallower or narrower mouthpiece can actually help the low register. Seems counterintuitive, I know.

Another factor is the undercut coming off the rim into the cup, which some call the alpha angle. This portion of the mouthpiece can either support or hinder one's playing. It the angle is too low, there is little support, the upper register can suffer, and tone can become a bit pinched from the excess effort required to play. Conversely, if the angle is too high, it can interfere with the vibration of the embouchure. If you are only having this issue after warming up, it is possible that the slight swelling of the lips that occurs when we play (due to increased blood flow and not necessarily inflammation) is resulting in the lips hitting into this portion of the mouthpiece and not vibrating freely. I personally have this issue with Bach B cups.

In truth, before making any meaningful recommendation, we would really need to know what you're playing and also how you're warming up.

But the longstanding (and best) recommendation you will find on this forum is:

Get a good teacher to help you through it.


This is true. If you can find a good trumpet teacher (a teacher who can play at an advanced or pro level, not who is "all talk"), that's obviously the best course of action. However, I'm a bit new here, so I assume private pro lessons aren't available to the people asking these types of questions.

By the way, the reason I said that about mouthpiece shallowness is because I was genuinely wondering whether or not OP was playing on something like a Bach 3E. Not only is the rim uncomfortable, but the cup doesn't do anybody favors on low notes.

The Bach 7C (this will go against conventional wisdom but I don't care) is a horrible beginner mouthpiece, though. I mean, I love Bach's trumpets, but they really shouldn't be sending a 7C with all those beginner horns bought by school music programs and private purchasers.

When I first came back to trumpet and received my Bach Stradivarius 180 Series Model 37 trumpet... I played on the provided 7C mouthpiece for literally less than 60 seconds total. Then, I switched over to the Schilke 15 mouthpiece and now the 7C is a useless hunk of metal to me. I still have it, but it's basically worthless.

Anyway, before I was a comeback player, I was a middle school player on the trumpet. Well, the 7C mouthpiece STILL sucked, even when I was a TRUE literal beginner. When I switched to the Bach 5C, the rim still sucked, but the mouthpiece wasn't resisting my air anymore. It always felt like the 7C resisted my air somehow. I don't understand why it felt that way, but it still feels that way today if I play on one of those 7Cs.

I think Schilke TRUMPET MOUTHPIECES are severely underrated. Their rims are so much more comfortable, and with WAY better alpha angles, than anything Bach has ever made in terms of mouthpieces. Don't get me wrong: I love Bach horns. But, they can't make a good mouthpiece to save their lives!
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As a composer, I will never write "B Sharp", "C Flat", "E Sharp", or "F Flat". I don't care what the key signature is. I'm not an academic; I'm a musician.

-Bach Strad 180 series 37
-Schilke 15
-Bob Reeves s692s w/ custom rim
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delano
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 10, 2021 11:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Lip Slurs and Low Range Reply with quote

HackAmateur wrote:

(...) Their rims are so much more comfortable, and with WAY better alpha angles, than anything Bach has ever made in terms of mouthpieces. Don't get me wrong: I love Bach horns. But, they can't make a good mouthpiece to save their lives!



Yes, it's common knowledge here that mr. Bach did know next to nothing about mouthpieces. And all the excellent pros that still play on Bach mouthpieces do that only because they love to be challenged.
BTW Did you know that your idol Kurt Thompson plays and loves the Bach 3E?
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Billy B
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2021 4:48 am    Post subject: Re: Lip Slurs and Low Range Reply with quote

OrangeDreamsicle wrote:
I have trouble with my low range sounding thin and sometimes getting a double buzz (generally my low Ab and below is my problem), and it seems as though once I get warmed up and do some long tones in my lower register to get it sounding good, it will start sounding bad once I get into my practice. I believe the problem is that I get too much tension throughout my practice and it pervades my lower register (especially after doing some lip slurs in my higher range). To combat this, I had the idea that whenever I play an exercise, I would do some slurs from my low C# to F# as essentially a long tone kind of exercise to make sure I'm still loosening up for those notes. I can gauge when I'm starting to build up too much tension in my practice, and I can also work on the tone of my lower register. What do you all think of this kind of approach? Do you have any commentary/tips for developing a resonant and -in general- enjoyable lower register to listen to?


The tension is rooted in your breath.
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HackAmateur
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2021 5:55 am    Post subject: Re: Lip Slurs and Low Range Reply with quote

delano wrote:
HackAmateur wrote:

(...) Their rims are so much more comfortable, and with WAY better alpha angles, than anything Bach has ever made in terms of mouthpieces. Don't get me wrong: I love Bach horns. But, they can't make a good mouthpiece to save their lives!



Yes, it's common knowledge here that mr. Bach did know next to nothing about mouthpieces. And all the excellent pros that still play on Bach mouthpieces do that only because they love to be challenged.
BTW Did you know that your idol Kurt Thompson plays and loves the Bach 3E?


Hey that's just my opinion on the Bach mouthpieces. Plenty of players have a different opinion. I'm just saying, for me PERSONALLY, Bach can't make a good mouthpiece. I love their horns, though.

I disagree with Kurt on Bach 3E being a good beginner mouthpiece. If you're gonna go with a Bach, I'd say Bach 5C makes the most sense as a beginner mouthpiece.


AND BY THE WAY...

And he's not my "idol". LOL He just surprised me by posting something that actually sounded good. In the many years I've seen his YouTube videos, I've never heard him play anything remotely musical. So, it was a surprise to hear him play something musically. Like I said in the other thread, I think he's finally doing his long tones or something.
[/b]
_________________
As a composer, I will never write "B Sharp", "C Flat", "E Sharp", or "F Flat". I don't care what the key signature is. I'm not an academic; I'm a musician.

-Bach Strad 180 series 37
-Schilke 15
-Bob Reeves s692s w/ custom rim
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delano
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2021 6:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

But maybe it's better then to say that Bach mouthpieces are not for you (BTW how many did you try?).
That is something complete different from: ..they can't make a good mouthpiece to save their lives.

I know some very good pros who play Bach mp's all their life. And to mention two: Chris Botti and Arturo play Bach mouthpieces and believe me or not, they know what they are doing.
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Billy B
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2021 6:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Bach 5C has more cup volume than the 3C or 7C.

NOT for beginners.
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HackAmateur
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2021 6:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

delano wrote:
But maybe it's better then to say that Bach mouthpieces are not for you (BTW how many did you try?).
That is something complete different from: ..they can't make a good mouthpiece to save their lives.

I know some very good pros who play Bach mp's all their life. And to mention two: Chris Botti and Arturo play Bach mouthpieces and believe me or not, they know what they are doing.


I tried all the standard more popular Bach mouthpieces. Bach 1, Bach 1.5, Bach 3C, Bach 3E, Bach 5C, and Bach 7C. The worst one by far was the 7C (for me). The best one (for me) would the Bach 1.5. Problem is: rim too uncomfortable.

Chris Botti and Arturo Sandoval are legendary players, but they're playing on what I consider to be uncomfortable rims. And who says they couldn't make a Yamaha or Schilke mouthpiece sound beautiful? They're virtuosos. They could play on anything and make it sound good in terms of mouthpieces.

I don't think virtuosos are good examples in a mouthpiece discussion. Chris Botti and Arturo Sandoval could play an aluminum foil mouthpiece and make it sound musical. lol

Us normal people have to choose what works for us, which is usually different from what works for virtuosos.
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As a composer, I will never write "B Sharp", "C Flat", "E Sharp", or "F Flat". I don't care what the key signature is. I'm not an academic; I'm a musician.

-Bach Strad 180 series 37
-Schilke 15
-Bob Reeves s692s w/ custom rim
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HackAmateur
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2021 6:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Billy B wrote:
The Bach 5C has more cup volume than the 3C or 7C.

NOT for beginners.


Why is cup volume considered "bad" for beginners? That idea, although a mainstream accepted idea, never made any sense to me.

When I was a beginner in 7th grade, my playing immediately got better when I switched from 7C to 5C. It was more free-blowing and made it way easier to develop a good tone. Yeah that's anecdotal, but there doesn't seem to be any actual evidence supporting this idea that more cup volume is universally bad for beginners.

In fact, I'd say that more cup volume might be a GOOD thing for beginners, because those mouthpieces with greater cup volume would help beginners develop a free-blowing tone, rather than a restricted tone that an unmodified contemporary Bach 7C offers.

The older 7C models were much different. I think maybe, back in the old days, students may have started on Mount Vernon 7Cs, but I wasn't around back then, so I don't know.
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As a composer, I will never write "B Sharp", "C Flat", "E Sharp", or "F Flat". I don't care what the key signature is. I'm not an academic; I'm a musician.

-Bach Strad 180 series 37
-Schilke 15
-Bob Reeves s692s w/ custom rim
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Billy B
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2021 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HackAmateur wrote:
Billy B wrote:
The Bach 5C has more cup volume than the 3C or 7C.

NOT for beginners.


Why is cup volume considered "bad" for beginners? That idea, although a mainstream accepted idea, never made any sense to me.

When I was a beginner in 7th grade, my playing immediately got better when I switched from 7C to 5C. It was more free-blowing and made it way easier to develop a good tone. Yeah that's anecdotal, but there doesn't seem to be any actual evidence supporting this idea that more cup volume is universally bad for beginners.

In fact, I'd say that more cup volume might be a GOOD thing for beginners, because those mouthpieces with greater cup volume would help beginners develop a free-blowing tone, rather than a restricted tone that an unmodified contemporary Bach 7C offers.

The older 7C models were much different. I think maybe, back in the old days, students may have started on Mount Vernon 7Cs, but I wasn't around back then, so I don't know.


Mouthpiece has nothing to do with "free blowing". The constriction comes from the player.
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deleted_user_7354402
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2021 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My experience teaching and playing has been that most double buzz issues come from one of three things:
1. A double buzz can most often be attributed to a problem with the air. Either the air speed changing too dramatically as you descend or too much tension when you begin in the upper register (or somewhere along the way down the line) that your lips just can’t vibrate freely.
2. Pitch may be errant as you descend. Typically, the lower notes in a descending line will pull flat and the upper notes will tend to creep sharp, pulling you out of the center of your sound. The solution being the old adage “think up as you go down and think down as you go up.” (Or something close to that
3. Tension….You could be adding too much tension with your arms. Either too much pressure, causing your lips to struggle to vibrate, or actually twisting the horn ever so slightly while you are playing, causing your lips to get twisted inside the mouthpiece. Or you could have tension in your throat; closing off some of your air stream. Perhaps some exercises on a breathing bag would be good to relax the throat on inhales and exhales. If that is part of the problem.
For the first two challenges, Stamp Flow Studies are great for working on maintaining a set embouchure as you descend. To check for problem number two, I’d recommend playing the a stamp flow studies, playing inside your sound and checking in with the tuner as you get to the bottom note. The more you do those flow studies, the more your lower notes will open up and start to blossom. With the added benefit of the octaves feeling closer together as you grow more efficient. With the biggest caveat that you need to be doing these exercises with a very free release of air, and continued steady blow through the line.
For problem number three, you can check this when you get the double buzz, by free buzzing in front of a mirror really quick, to can usually see if your embouchure is getting twisted just by the way your embouchure looks. If you sense a probable there, just knowing that you might be adding tension or a twist can usually help you figure out the solution. I like to tell any of my students to “use the least amount of effort necessary to produce a good tone”
It can be a worthwhile experiment to see how lightly you can hold the trumpet to your face and get a good free blowing tone.

None of these thoughts are gospel, but they have helped quite a few of my students solve double buzz issues. I hope some of the thoughts help. I lt sounds like your instinct about playing C down to F sharp is trying to address the concept of tension, Stamp can be a useful tool to help you carry a relaxed, higher set embouchure, down to below the staff, with minimal
Change in embouchure setup. The upper neighbor tones also help you keep the pitch up and centered as you descend.
I hope these thoughts help
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Tpt_Guy
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2021 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Billy B wrote:
Mouthpiece has nothing to do with "free blowing". The constriction comes from the player.


Only in the literal sense.

Any mouthpiece will only be as restrictive as its narrowest point (the throat) when simply blowing air through it. The acid test is when you play it.

Is it designed well enough to be acceptable acoustically?
Does it have a proper backbore?
Is the cup a proper design?

If the answer is no to any of these, the player may experience "backpressure." Thus, if a mouthpiece is of such a design that it's flat in the upper register, trying to get it to play in tune may cause a player to experience excessive resistance. This can occur in the low register as well. Too large of a gap can cause resistance. A "V" cup can feel resistive to players not accustomed to playing them. There are many variables, but a mouthpiece has to be designed well enough acoustically to match the player and instrument.

On the reverse, a mouthpiece that is too open and doesn't provide enough support can cause a player to generate the resistance internally which I believe is almost invariably detrimental to one's playing.
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HackAmateur
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 12, 2021 1:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tpt_Guy wrote:
Billy B wrote:
Mouthpiece has nothing to do with "free blowing". The constriction comes from the player.


Only in the literal sense.

Any mouthpiece will only be as restrictive as its narrowest point (the throat) when simply blowing air through it. The acid test is when you play it.

Is it designed well enough to be acceptable acoustically?
Does it have a proper backbore?
Is the cup a proper design?

If the answer is no to any of these, the player may experience "backpressure." Thus, if a mouthpiece is of such a design that it's flat in the upper register, trying to get it to play in tune may cause a player to experience excessive resistance. This can occur in the low register as well. Too large of a gap can cause resistance. A "V" cup can feel resistive to players not accustomed to playing them. There are many variables, but a mouthpiece has to be designed well enough acoustically to match the player and instrument.

On the reverse, a mouthpiece that is too open and doesn't provide enough support can cause a player to generate the resistance internally which I believe is almost invariably detrimental to one's playing.


Thank you! I know that, when I play on a Bach 7C mouthpiece, it feels like I have a TON of resistance. Meanwhile, on Schilke 15, no resistance whatsoever... feels normal. No "backpressure" at all.

I definitely play in a free-blowing manner, but Bach 7C is a mouthpiece that feels to me like it gets in my way, like I'm "fighting" the mouthpiece to produce sound.

What I meant by "free-blowing" was using a type of mouthpiece that doesn't generate backpressure, but I didn't know how to explain that when I responded to Billy B. I didn't know why I felt such extreme resistance on Bach 7C.

With Bach 7C, that mouthpiece generates all kinds of backpressure and doesn't "feel" right. It feels like my air isn't being allowed to freely pass through the mouthpiece. And so, I think, for a beginner, Bach 7C is a bad mouthpiece for that very reason.

If a beginner plays on a Bach 7C and doesn't feel backpressure, they're probably blowing their air incorrectly. I suppose you could use that mouthpiece to tests whether or not the beginner is capable of blowing their air properly. If they don't feel backpressure on a Bach 7C, I'd say they're doing something wrong. lol
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PMonteiro
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Joined: 29 Jul 2020
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Location: Hudson Valley

PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2021 7:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HackAmateur wrote:
Billy B wrote:
The Bach 5C has more cup volume than the 3C or 7C.

NOT for beginners.


Why is cup volume considered "bad" for beginners? That idea, although a mainstream accepted idea, never made any sense to me.

When I was a beginner in 7th grade, my playing immediately got better when I switched from 7C to 5C. It was more free-blowing and made it way easier to develop a good tone. Yeah that's anecdotal, but there doesn't seem to be any actual evidence supporting this idea that more cup volume is universally bad for beginners.

In fact, I'd say that more cup volume might be a GOOD thing for beginners, because those mouthpieces with greater cup volume would help beginners develop a free-blowing tone, rather than a restricted tone that an unmodified contemporary Bach 7C offers.

The older 7C models were much different. I think maybe, back in the old days, students may have started on Mount Vernon 7Cs, but I wasn't around back then, so I don't know.


Interesting how you found the 5C to be free-blowing. I think it's very resistant, although that has helped me learn how to back off and play with less tension.

I don't think that the 5C is a beginner mouthpiece, not because of its cup volume but because of its rim. It can be uncomfortable and hard to handle if you're not accustomed to rounded rims.
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