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Lip Slurs and Low Range


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kalijah
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2021 8:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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n fact, I'd say that more cup volume might be a GOOD thing for beginners, because those mouthpieces with greater cup volume would help beginners develop a free-blowing tone, rather than a restricted tone that an unmodified contemporary Bach 7C offers.


Free blowing?

A beginner needs a reasonable amount of resonance in the instrument because beginners are inefficient in tone production. As as beginner progresses in tone production skill they may eventually prefer an instrument with less impedance.

I have always felt that 7C is too much cup volume and too uncomfortable of a rim for beginners. Beginners should use a mouthpiece with medium characteristics in every respect. I like the standard Schilke 9, 11 or 12 for a beginner. The instrument is the trumpet AND mouthpiece.

There is likely little acoustical difference between a 7c and 5c.

BTW a truly "free-blowing" instrument would not be playable.
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HackAmateur
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2021 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kalijah wrote:


Free blowing?


Yes. I'm obviously talking about the feeling of your air not being resisted very much by the mouthpiece. I don't mean something that defies the laws of physics like some of you guys are suggesting. So, minimal backpressure (from the mouthpiece) is probably a better way to describe it.

Quote:
A beginner needs a reasonable amount of resonance in the instrument because beginners are inefficient in tone production. As as beginner progresses in tone production skill they may eventually prefer an instrument with less impedance.


This is the thing people say without thinking about it at all. If a beginner works primarily on things like blowing the leadpipe (that's from Bill Adams, but you could use a different school of thought for a similar result), LONG TONES, flow studies, etc., then they won't need a mouthpiece that has a bunch of backpressure.

If their tone production is inefficient, which as a true beginner it will be inefficient, then the first thing beginners ought to work on is... better tone production. Not giving them a weird mouthpiece most advanced players would never prefer to use in a million years.

In my opinion, no matter how inefficient a beginner's tone production is, it can't possibly be more inefficient than a Bach 7C mouthpiece (for most players, anyway)!

Quote:
I have always felt that 7C is too much cup volume and too uncomfortable of a rim for beginners. Beginners should use a mouthpiece with medium characteristics in every respect. I like the standard Schilke 9, 11 or 12 for a beginner. The instrument is the trumpet AND mouthpiece.


Despite our disagreements, this is something we definitely agree on. An average mouthpiece, an all-around mouthpiece, like those you just named, would be best... not a Bach 7C, with its harsh backpressure and uncomfortable rim.

Quote:
There is likely little acoustical difference between a 7c and 5c.

BTW a truly "free-blowing" instrument would not be playable.


The difference is the 5C has less backpressure. It's very hard to develop more efficient tone production if your first mouthpiece has a ton of backpressure and feels like it's resisting your air (e.g., Bach 7C).
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2021 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This discussion about 'back pressure' and 'free blowing' is interesting to me because it involves the player's concepts of how 'playing the instrument' should feel.

I do sometimes get the feeling of not being able to produce the desired tone or volume that I want, but I don't translate that into not being able to blow enough air through the mouthpiece or instrument. For me it is more a feeling of not doing the necessary things on 'my side' of the mouthpiece - not that something 'inside the horn' itself it causing the trouble.

Often I am able to readjust my embouchure and technique to get the results I want - no change to the mouthpiece or horn.

I certainly agree that some mouthpiece / horn combinations are more/less restrictive (back pressure?) but for me, it's primarily a matter of my playing technique.

It would be good if there were a way to describe in words how 'effective and efficient' playing should feel.
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HackAmateur
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2021 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JayKosta wrote:
This discussion about 'back pressure' and 'free blowing' is interesting to me because it involves the player's concepts of how 'playing the instrument' should feel.

I do sometimes get the feeling of not being able to produce the desired tone or volume that I want, but I don't translate that into not being able to blow enough air through the mouthpiece or instrument. For me it is more a feeling of not doing the necessary things on 'my side' of the mouthpiece - not that something 'inside the horn' itself it causing the trouble.

Often I am able to readjust my embouchure and technique to get the results I want - no change to the mouthpiece or horn.

I certainly agree that some mouthpiece / horn combinations are more/less restrictive (back pressure?) but for me, it's primarily a matter of my playing technique.

It would be good if there were a way to describe in words how 'effective and efficient' playing should feel.


Yeah. Basically, what I'm saying is that blowing air through the mouthpiece and into the trumpet should feel rather unrestricted. Like, the airflow through the mouthpiece should feel like your air is moving freely instead of feeling like you have to fight with the mouthpiece.

When it comes to a beginner, I think they should start with a mouthpiece that has a comfortable rim and also a mouthpiece that doesn't feel like it's resisting the student's airflow.

This doesn't mean I'd advocate giving beginners Bach 1.5 mouthpieces as a standard procedure... that would create the opposite problem.

The "problem" I'm concerned about with a mouthpiece that feels restrictive to airflow is that it can stifle the beginner's tone development. If you're fighting against your mouthpiece just to move air through the horn, you might develop bad habits that you'll have to undo later if you want to sound good.

Of course, starting all beginners on Bach 1.5 mouthpieces would create the opposite problem: the beginners might develop bad habits that lead to an unfocused tone.

So, middle of the road mouthpieces that are popular for more advanced players (not specialized mouthpieces, just standard ones)... beginners should be given that in my opinion.

They're probably going to switch over to a standard mouthpiece anyway. Why start them off playing on junkyard metal when they can start with a middle-of-the-road normal mouthpiece?

To the airflow, the mouthpiece is more important than the trumpet itself, especially for tone production. So, it's okay for beginners to start off on student horns, just I don't believe in "student mouthpieces". A starting mouthpiece ought to be a standard mouthpiece that actually has a use in the real world beyond being "for beginners".[/b]
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2021 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
This discussion about 'back pressure' and 'free blowing' is interesting to me because it involves the player's concepts of how 'playing the instrument' should feel.


Or it involves the players need to toss around phrases that trumpet players love to repeat to sound "trumpety".

Is "back-pressure" somehow different than, just,... pressure?
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HackAmateur
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2021 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kalijah wrote:
Quote:
This discussion about 'back pressure' and 'free blowing' is interesting to me because it involves the player's concepts of how 'playing the instrument' should feel.


Or it involves the players need to toss around phrases that trumpet players love to repeat to sound "trumpety".

Is "back-pressure" somehow different than, just,... pressure?


Ignoring the silly ad hom, yes "backpressure" is different from "pressure".

With mouthpiece pressure, that means how hard is the mouthpiece jammed into the player's lips.

Mouthpiece backpressure, however, means that your airflow doesn't feel like it's going smoothly THROUGH the mouthpiece. It feels like something is physically blocking some of your air from traveling into the lead pipe from the mouthpiece. If you want to know exactly what I mean, block half of your mouthpiece using your index finger on the shank and blow through it... then blow through the mouthpiece without blocking it. That's backpressure.

The terminology I'm using has a real utility. It's not an attempt to "sound trumpety" whatever that means.
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As a composer, I will never write "B Sharp", "C Flat", "E Sharp", or "F Flat". I don't care what the key signature is. I'm not an academic; I'm a musician.

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kalijah
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2021 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
To the airflow, the mouthpiece is more important than the trumpet itself, especially for tone production. So, it's okay for beginners to start off on student horns, just I don't believe in "student mouthpieces". A starting mouthpiece ought to be a standard mouthpiece that actually has a use in the real world beyond being "for beginners"


The mouthpiece AND trumpet are THE instrument. And the trumpet portion of the instrument is the DOMINANT contributor of acoustic impedance, that is, it provides the greater resonance and there by the dominant resistance.

So you don't prefer the 7C, (nor do I) and you think that students don't. While I kinda agree that there are better mouthpieces for students. The 7C is absolutely a legit mouthpiece and has been used by professional players including studio and other type players.

Everyone has preferences, but to decry so vehemently, and have that much issue with a single piece may reveal that the problems may not be just the mouthpiece.


Last edited by kalijah on Tue Jul 13, 2021 2:43 pm; edited 1 time in total
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2021 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
With mouthpiece pressure, that means how hard is the mouthpiece jammed into the player's lips.


That is mouthpiece "force". And it is not related to air pressure.

Quote:
It feels like something is physically blocking some of your air from traveling into the lead pipe from the mouthpiece. If you want to know exactly what I mean, block half of your mouthpiece using your index finger on the shank and blow through it... then blow through the mouthpiece without blocking it. That's backpressure.


No. That's resistance. And resistance is required to play. There are also other mouthpieces that contribute even more to the total instrument resistance than a 7C would.

The 7C also COULD be revealing some undue resistance contributed by the player which is a pure detriment to efficiency. Don't assume that all of the resistance you experience is from the instrument (including the mp). It isn't.

Quote:
The terminology I'm using has a real utility. It's not an attempt to "sound trumpety" whatever that means.


It means nonsensical, nebulously defined(at best) terms that trumpet players love to toss about.

Examples:

"free-blowing", "back-pressure", "compression", "air volume", "projection", and the holy grail of trumpetspeak: "air-speed"
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joelf
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2021 3:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Lip Slurs and Low Range Reply with quote

HackAmateur wrote:
joelf wrote:
OrangeDreamsicle wrote:
...generally my low Ab and below is my problem...
I (a beginning player) can not get that Ab with a centered aperture---have to 'cheat': lips to the right of MP.

And if I'm not properly warmed up (I think that's a lot of it) sometimes I can't get Ab and G at all---just farty; belchy somethings. And it changes from day to day. But it is WAY better with a longer warm up, starting higher before getting to the Southland...


I wouldn't recommend focusing too much on embouchure shifts as you get down to low notes. You ought to stay focused on producing a beautiful sound, in my opinion, and if something physical happens in your embouchure to make that beautiful sound happen, you probably shouldn't worry too much about it.

EDIT: To be clear, I mean SMALL changes you shouldn't worry about, like it your face pivots slightly to reach Low Ab.

By the way, I'd recommend you look into using Vincent Cichowicz Flow Studies as a warm-up, followed by long tones. As a beginner, the most important thing you ought to focus on is creating a beautiful sound, the most beautiful sound you can. It's the foundation of everything else.

If you don't have any clue what a beautiful tone sounds like, I'd recommend listening to various pro players playing solos until you find somebody whose tone you love. For me, Conrad Gozzo, Doc Severinsen, and Jesse McGuire have gorgeous tones. But somebody else might prefer the opposite kind of trumpet tone, such as Maurice Andre or Chris Botti. That's a different kind of beautiful tone than Doc Severinsen, but beauty is in the eye of the beholder (or listener).[/b][/i]
Yeah. Sound is paramount---the reason I was attracted after 56 years on guitar (on which I could somehow get a sound almost from jump).

I'm a jazzer, and we jazzers know that there's more than 1 way through Rome. If pulling to the side is the only way to make Ab and G---by cracky, that's MY way.

The general problem is still those farty 'before' notes---especially that low G, a bitch to control. The more warmed up I am the easier, but it's always SOMEWHAT of a problem.

Straight ahead...
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Tpt_Guy
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2021 11:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kalijah wrote:
Quote:
With mouthpiece pressure, that means how hard is the mouthpiece jammed into the player's lips.


That is mouthpiece "force". And it is not related to air pressure.


One definition of pressure is the act of pressing something against something else. The pressing of the mouthpiece against the lips has nothing directly to do with air, but it is still pressure. This is why it was referred to as "mouthpiece pressure."

Quote:
Quote:
It feels like something is physically blocking some of your air from traveling into the lead pipe from the mouthpiece. If you want to know exactly what I mean, block half of your mouthpiece using your index finger on the shank and blow through it... then blow through the mouthpiece without blocking it. That's backpressure.


No. That's resistance. And resistance is required to play. There are also other mouthpieces that contribute even more to the total instrument resistance than a 7C would.


A point of confusion for the trumpet world (not on your part). Yes, resistance is required, but when players experience more resistance than is comfortable, it is often described as "backpressure" because it feels as if something is pushing back. There is such a thing as backpressure in the flow of gasses or liquids, but I doubt it occurs in brass playing to any great extent because we only experience real resistance when we play and are pushing against the acoustical energy of the system. Occasionally an instrument can have misaligned nodes and anti-nodes due to poor design or poor manufacturing and this can make for a rather "stuffy" instrument. Yay, another term for excessive resistance. Unfortunately, this is part of the trumpet world's parlance and isn't likely to die any time soon. (Not trying to counter you, Darryl. Just trying to contribute to the thread in a way that ties things together.)

Quote:
The 7C also COULD be revealing some undue resistance contributed by the player which is a pure detriment to efficiency. Don't assume that all of the resistance you experience is from the instrument (including the mp). It isn't.

Quote:
The terminology I'm using has a real utility. It's not an attempt to "sound trumpety" whatever that means.


It means nonsensical, nebulously defined(at best) terms that trumpet players love to toss about.

Examples:

"free-blowing", "back-pressure", "compression", "air volume", "projection", and the holy grail of trumpetspeak: "air-speed"


Unfortunately, many terms players use to describe instruments' playing qualities or how to achieve a certain technique are rooted in sensations. "Backpressure" (or stuffiness, as mentioned above) is a sensation of such resistance that it feels as if the air is pushing back. This would be beyond what some may call a "tight" horn (of course, we know a "tight" instrument is simply efficient). I ceased using this term (backpressure) after I corrected some non-optimum playing habits and the feeling went away. "Free blowing" of course just means that for a given player there is an acceptably low amount of resistance. Compression is one that just bugs me. For example, in a video a seller promoting a certain horn will say, "The valves have great compression" then pull a slide so we hear the pop. That's seal. Trumpet valves are not automotive pistons - they do not compress anything ever. Of course, you meant people talking about compressing air, which isn't something trumpeters can do to any meaningful extent.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2021 11:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kalijah wrote:
Quote:
This discussion about 'back pressure' and 'free blowing' is interesting to me because it involves the player's concepts of how 'playing the instrument' should feel.


Or it involves the players need to toss around phrases that trumpet players love to repeat to sound "trumpety".

Is "back-pressure" somehow different than, just,... pressure?


I'll answer this in a stand-alone post, even though I just posted about it as part of another.

I looked up backpressure and found this definition:

Residual pressure opposing the free flow of a gas or liquid, as in a pipe or an exhaust system.

(This definition is from the American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Fifth Edition.)

So, yes. It is different than pressure. That said...

I don't believe brass players experience this, at least not from the instrument itself. The entire instrument after the mouthpiece has a wider cross-section than the throat and thus there really isn't much of an opportunity for any sort of residual pressure to build and oppose a free flow of air. Further, it does not take a lot of air to play a trumpet. As Rafael Mendez put it, "It takes as much air as normal conversation."

Poor playing habits can cause a feeling of excess resistance, as can a poorly designed or constructed instrument, a poorly designed mouthpiece or just one that doesn't match the player, or an improper gap.
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delano
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2021 12:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's a pity that this thread about problems in someone's low range detoriated in a thread about mouthpieces and the worth of a certain jargon.
On a forum like this you can only give advice about a playing problem with solutions with a degree of probability.
In this case by far the biggest probability goes to Billy B.:

The tension is rooted in your breath.

Especially the lowest notes are the least forgiving to tension in your breathing system and it may feel quite contra-intuitive to let go your inclination to control these difficult notes and give instead of that free way to the low notes.

BTW as a former collecter I still own about 15 to 20 (I did not count them) 7C mouthpieces and they are all different in rim, depth, alpha angle and more.
Some of them may feel restrictive, some quite open, possibly a consequence of wrong, contradictory elements in the design, but FYI the best one I own is a Bach 7C cornet piece from the sixties (not deep!) and the worst one is also a Bach, a quite recent one. I own them, often more than one, from Bach, Benge, Curry, Yamaha, Jupiter, JK A&s and some without brand names. And yes, most 7C's are probably a little too deep for a beginner but please stop all the bad-informed generalisations about these mouthpieces. The 7C is just a mouthpiece like others, some are good, some are bad, some are good for somebody but bad for somebody else.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2021 3:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

delano wrote:
It's a pity that this thread about problems in someone's low range detoriated in a thread about mouthpieces and the worth of a certain jargon.
On a forum like this you can only give advice about a playing problem with solutions with a degree of probability.
In this case by far the biggest probability goes to Billy B.:

The tension is rooted in your breath.

Especially the lowest notes are the least forgiving to tension in your breathing system and it may feel quite contra-intuitive to let go your inclination to control these difficult notes and give instead of that free way to the low notes.

BTW as a former collecter I still own about 15 to 20 (I did not count them) 7C mouthpieces and they are all different in rim, depth, alpha angle and more.
Some of them may feel restrictive, some quite open, possibly a consequence of wrong, contradictory elements in the design, but FYI the best one I own is a Bach 7C cornet piece from the sixties (not deep!) and the worst one is also a Bach, a quite recent one. I own them, often more than one, from Bach, Benge, Curry, Yamaha, Jupiter, JK A&s and some without brand names. And yes, most 7C's are probably a little too deep for a beginner but please stop all the bad-informed generalisations about these mouthpieces. The 7C is just a mouthpiece like others, some are good, some are bad, some are good for somebody but bad for somebody else.


A voice of reason. So refreshing.

"Especially the lowest notes are the least forgiving to tension in your breathing system and it may feel quite contra-intuitive to let go your inclination to control these difficult notes and give instead of that free way to the low notes."
This is also true of the high notes. You can improve your high range by improving your low range.
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trickg
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2021 6:30 am    Post subject: Re: Lip Slurs and Low Range Reply with quote

OrangeDreamsicle wrote:
I have trouble with my low range sounding thin and sometimes getting a double buzz (generally my low Ab and below is my problem), and it seems as though once I get warmed up and do some long tones in my lower register to get it sounding good, it will start sounding bad once I get into my practice. I believe the problem is that I get too much tension throughout my practice and it pervades my lower register (especially after doing some lip slurs in my higher range). To combat this, I had the idea that whenever I play an exercise, I would do some slurs from my low C# to F# as essentially a long tone kind of exercise to make sure I'm still loosening up for those notes. I can gauge when I'm starting to build up too much tension in my practice, and I can also work on the tone of my lower register. What do you all think of this kind of approach? Do you have any commentary/tips for developing a resonant and -in general- enjoyable lower register to listen to?

Wow. So I perused down through this thread and there's so much stuff to wade through - it's daunting.

My take on this is a MUCH more simple approach. I see the issue to be a focus issue - your chops simply aren't focusing in that register the way they should.

With that in mind, there are two things I have always worked on to promote chops focus:

1.) soft low long tones while working to reduce mouthpiece pressure
2.) lots and lots and lots and lots of articulation exercises, particularly from tuning C on down, mostly single-tonguing.

As others have stated, the issue is likely rooted in your air usage, tension, etc. Fixing those issues doesn't have to be complicated.

For me, focus issues don't tend to manifest from 2nd line G up. Where they really start to become noticeable are around 1st line E/Eb/D. If my chops aren't focusing, that's where the sound will start to break down, and when I really need to go back to basics, it will actually break down into a double-buzz. This is something I make a point to address from time to time, so I'm familiar with the issue, and I'm familiar with what I do to fix it.

Trumpet players are famous for making things much more complicated than they need to be. If you want to fix your chops focus issues, work those long tones and low articulation exercises. The articulation exercises work because they promote both proper air usage and chops focus - you can't articulate cleanly down low without that. The soft, low, low-pressure long tones also help to promote good air usage and chops focus.

If you work on those things and do it diligently - seriously, don't work anything else for a couple of weeks - you'll find it will fix a lot of other issues.

Speaking about trumpet players and over-complication, when you get right down to it, all trumpet playing is comprised of a few basic constructs that we put together to make music.
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harryjamesworstnightmare
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2021 6:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Change your mindset, not your equipment. Think of yourself singing the low register, take your mind off the mechanics. Imagine the sound you want and make it happen. A good sound model is the best approach. I've heard guys on all sorts of equipment play the low register just as well as the higher register. I doubt any of them are thinking about the mechanics. Let the tone guide you.
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HackAmateur
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2021 7:13 am    Post subject: Re: Lip Slurs and Low Range Reply with quote

First off, thanks for getting our mouthpiece semantics discussion back to the original topic. I was getting tired of arguing about semantics of how things should feel when playing. lol

trickg wrote:

For me, focus issues don't tend to manifest from 2nd line G up. Where they really start to become noticeable are around 1st line E/Eb/D. If my chops aren't focusing, that's where the sound will start to break down, and when I really need to go back to basics, it will actually break down into a double-buzz. This is something I make a point to address from time to time, so I'm familiar with the issue, and I'm familiar with what I do to fix it.


This is something I'm going to pay attention to. When I start 'double-buzzing' notes that are normally easy for me (e.g., middle E, Eb, or D area notes), I'm going to modify whatever I originally planned on practicing in favor of revisiting the basics through the trumpet exercises I choose, playing at mp volume instead of my typical f volume that I play 90% of my routine in most days.

I never thought that temporarily unfocused chops could be the culprit and that revisiting the basics could remedy that issue. So, when I encounter this again, I will adapt as you suggested (revisit basics) and also back off on the playing volume. That sounds like it would probably work for me.

If it does work for me, thank you in advance for this advice, even though it was intended for OP, not me.

trickg wrote:
Trumpet players are famous for making things much more complicated than they need to be. If you want to fix your chops focus issues, work those long tones and low articulation exercises. The articulation exercises work because they promote both proper air usage and chops focus - you can't articulate cleanly down low without that. The soft, low, low-pressure long tones also help to promote good air usage and chops focus.


+1

I agree with this completely, though I think the Claude Gordon Systematic Approach to expanding the low range could be an adjunct to this work.

This suggestion is similar to my original suggestion, but different because it doesn't recommend trying to unlock the pedal notes. I call any note below D at the bottom of the staff "low notes", because at least for me, that's where articulation becomes more more difficult than middle-register articulation if I have too much tension. Lowering tension was the key for me to improve my low notes. It could also be the key for the OP.

My logic was that if a player can play pedal notes (in the manner outlined by Systematic Approach by Claude Gordon), and play them correctly, without an insanely drastic embouchure change, and with a decent tone, that will improve the "normal low notes" from low C# down to low F#.

However, like TrickG said, the OP should specifically work on regular low notes, in particular articulating them as cleanly as possible using single-tonguing. That would fix the problem, but to make tension happen far less often for normal low notes, at least in my personal experience, unlocking and doing the same for notes BELOW low F# has helped me tremendously.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2021 7:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

harryjamesworstnightmare wrote:
Change your mindset, not your equipment. Think of yourself singing the low register, take your mind off the mechanics. Imagine the sound you want and make it happen. A good sound model is the best approach. I've heard guys on all sorts of equipment play the low register just as well as the higher register. I doubt any of them are thinking about the mechanics. Let the tone guide you.


I just want to clarify that I was the first person to bring up what kind of mouthpiece OP could be using. Since OP has never answered that question, nobody in this thread has suggested an equipment change.

All I was alluding to was that shallower cups tend to be harder (at first) than medium cups to produce good low notes. Of course, yeah, when you've practiced your low notes properly on a shallow mouthpiece, you're going to have strong low notes on it over time.

Guys on all sorts of equipment playing the low register well? Of course. My only contention was that, for beginners, there's no reason to use a mouthpiece that typically makes low notes harder to improve. Yeah, if you're playing with pro and advanced amateurs, those guys probably won't have weak low notes. I mean that's common sense. This is about a beginner struggling with low notes, though, not advanced amateurs or pro players...
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2021 7:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

harryjamesworstnightmare wrote:
Change your mindset, not your equipment. Think of yourself singing the low register, take your mind off the mechanics. Imagine the sound you want and make it happen. A good sound model is the best approach. I've heard guys on all sorts of equipment play the low register just as well as the higher register. I doubt any of them are thinking about the mechanics. Let the tone guide you.

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trickg
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2021 7:41 am    Post subject: Re: Lip Slurs and Low Range Reply with quote

HackAmateur wrote:
I never thought that temporarily unfocused chops could be the culprit and that revisiting the basics could remedy that issue. So, when I encounter this again, I will adapt as you suggested (revisit basics) and also back off on the playing volume. That sounds like it would probably work for me.

I wanted to talk about this specific point because it was something that I came to because of what and how I was playing.

Initially it started during my Army band days in the summer when we were doing a lot of outdoor playing for ceremonies and street parades - anything that involved marching and playing marches.

In those settings we tended to want to produce a lot of volume - when you're outside, even lower dynamics need to be heard, so realistically your dynamic level extends from about an mf at the softest to a FF at the loudest.

Now add the marching. For me, marching on a rough grass field, I tend to apply more mouthpiece pressure, simply to keep the mouthpiece in place. Street parades are the same thing, only compounded. The surface might be smoother, but there's a lot more playing - a ceremony typically only has 2 marches played on the move - the Sound-Off sequence, and the Pass-in-Review sequence.

After a couple of weeks of back-to-back ceremonies and street parades, without some direct intervention in the practice room, there's only one way you can play - hard and loud. Your chops become accustomed to playing loud with additional mouthpiece pressure and more air. (back then in my early 20s, I didn't tend to practice on gig days. I'd warm up, do the gig, pop the horn back in the case when done, and that's where it would stay until the next day.)

The same thing happened during the years I played in a Latin band, and again with the wedding dance band. My chops got to a point where they actually needed the pressure to maintain focus.

The way I'd get it back would be to hit the practice room and systematically work on reducing mouthpiece pressure, playing softer, regaining chops focus, and ridding myself of the double-buzz that crept in to my playing. I try to keep it in mind these days so that I don't get to that point, but there are still times where I go back to some of those fundamental exercises just to bring things back in line.

I attended a clinic with Rene Hernandez, assistant principle of the Baltimore symphony, and even he said a similar thing about having to reset the chops after playing a series of pops concerts where the playing is much harder and louder.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2021 8:11 am    Post subject: Re: Lip Slurs and Low Range Reply with quote

trickg wrote:
HackAmateur wrote:
I never thought that temporarily unfocused chops could be the culprit and that revisiting the basics could remedy that issue. So, when I encounter this again, I will adapt as you suggested (revisit basics) and also back off on the playing volume. That sounds like it would probably work for me.

I wanted to talk about this specific point because it was something that I came to because of what and how I was playing.

Initially it started during my Army band days in the summer when we were doing a lot of outdoor playing for ceremonies and street parades - anything that involved marching and playing marches.

In those settings we tended to want to produce a lot of volume - when you're outside, even lower dynamics need to be heard, so realistically your dynamic level extends from about an mf at the softest to a FF at the loudest.

Now add the marching. For me, marching on a rough grass field, I tend to apply more mouthpiece pressure, simply to keep the mouthpiece in place. Street parades are the same thing, only compounded. The surface might be smoother, but there's a lot more playing - a ceremony typically only has 2 marches played on the move - the Sound-Off sequence, and the Pass-in-Review sequence.

After a couple of weeks of back-to-back ceremonies and street parades, without some direct intervention in the practice room, there's only one way you can play - hard and loud. Your chops become accustomed to playing loud with additional mouthpiece pressure and more air. (back then in my early 20s, I didn't tend to practice on gig days. I'd warm up, do the gig, pop the horn back in the case when done, and that's where it would stay until the next day.)

The same thing happened during the years I played in a Latin band, and again with the wedding dance band. My chops got to a point where they actually needed the pressure to maintain focus.

The way I'd get it back would be to hit the practice room and systematically work on reducing mouthpiece pressure, playing softer, regaining chops focus, and ridding myself of the double-buzz that crept in to my playing. I try to keep it in mind these days so that I don't get to that point, but there are still times where I go back to some of those fundamental exercises just to bring things back in line.

I attended a clinic with Rene Hernandez, assistant principle of the Baltimore symphony, and even he said a similar thing about having to reset the chops after playing a series of pops concerts where the playing is much harder and louder.


Absolutely great post. What you're saying is helpful to me, a decently advanced amateur player (though I really need to improve my flexibility which lags behind everything else)... and it's also helpful to beginners. It's probably also helpful to pro commercial and jazz players. Basically, anybody who NORMALLY plays with louder dynamics could benefit from reading this post and applying the concepts.

For me, I usually practice at forte-only unless I'm playing music or etudes that call for varied dynamics, in which case I'll play whatever is written, from pp to ff. This is because what I love the most is playing commercial stuff, such as soundtrack music. As you already know, most of that music isn't written at p or mp volumes.

However, before reading this, the only time I backed off on dynamics (from f down to mp) was whenever I was having an "off day" in terms of range. If High F is difficult to play (usually because my chops aren't fully recovered from previous practices or performances), I'd just go into mp Schlossberg and p Clarke stuff.

But the middle register double-buzzing typically starts multiple days BEFORE my range takes a temporary nose-dive (High F being very hard to play at f volume is a nose-dive for my range).

This means I've actually been changing over to soft playing of basics much later than I really need to. I should actually do it as soon as the double-buzzing and sloppiness starts in my middle register... not wait until High F can't be played at full volume.

So yeah, your post is INCREDIBLY helpful to me, and I'd say anybody else who normally plays around f volume most of the time.

With beginners, to get any decent resonance at all, they normally HAVE to play at f or ff volume. So, for the OP, this can set them up for a bunch of tension in their low notes. That may be the time the beginner needs to back off in terms of louder dynamics.

But for somebody who isn't a beginner, it sets up the double-buzzing and sloppiness in middle register, and for me, what follows is a temporary decrease in my range until my chops actually recover fully.

This is the most helpful post I've seen on this forum so far. Of course I only joined like last week, but still, this is golden advice that I'll be taking and using for sure.
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As a composer, I will never write "B Sharp", "C Flat", "E Sharp", or "F Flat". I don't care what the key signature is. I'm not an academic; I'm a musician.

-Bach Strad 180 series 37
-Schilke 15
-Bob Reeves s692s w/ custom rim
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