• FAQ  • Search  • Memberlist  • Usergroups   • Register   • Profile  • Log in to check your private messages  • Log in 

Another Roll Out question



 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> The Balanced Embouchure
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
mike ansberry
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 03 Jun 2003
Posts: 1605
Location: Clarksville, Tn

PostPosted: Sat Jul 10, 2021 12:58 pm    Post subject: Another Roll Out question Reply with quote

Hey, Jeff
I have been revisiting the information in the Roll Out section and I think I may have been doing it wrong.

On Roll Out #3 my lip starts in a normal playing position for the first note, then I pucker and get the double pedal. The inner mushy part of my lips are vibrating and I get the sound like on the recording,
but lower lip doesn't roll out as far as in the picture. The ridge between the red mushy part of the lower lip and the harder outer part does not leave the mouthpiece.

I play #4 the same way. My lips are in the mouthpiece but puckered forward to get the double pedal sound like in the recording. But they roll in as I ascend.

Will this prevent me from getting the full benefit of BE?
_________________
Music is a fire in your belly, fighting to get out. You'd better put a horn in the way before someone gets hurt.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
trumpetteacher1
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 11 Nov 2001
Posts: 3398
Location: Garland, Texas

PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2021 8:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is always potential for a more exaggerated lip position. I think that most players settle for something less than optimum.

If you have thinner lips, the more exaggerated RO position may be challenging.

What happens when you play pedals with the bottom lip more rolled out? It will undoubtedly feel different.

Jeff
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
mike ansberry
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 03 Jun 2003
Posts: 1605
Location: Clarksville, Tn

PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2021 10:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I will work on that.

So I should practice Roll Out # & 4 with the boundary of the "fleshy part" of the lower lip out of the mouth mouthpiece up into the upper range and not let it roll in?
_________________
Music is a fire in your belly, fighting to get out. You'd better put a horn in the way before someone gets hurt.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
steve0930
Veteran Member


Joined: 07 May 2018
Posts: 186

PostPosted: Mon Jul 12, 2021 6:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Mike

As far as I know the only hard and fast rule is that you should sound exactly like the recording and it sounds like you are checking that box.

Personally my "shift" phase is dramatic so the bottom lip (and I have thin lips) is right out of the mp - at the start of RO 3and 4.

At the moment I don't have any hard and fast rule for how much I roll in in the middle of the RO4. I think quite a lot of people (from what I have read on this forum) go for more of a rolled in lip set up as they get to say g top of the staff.

Great thing about BE is the flexibility / despite Jeff's very precise instructions / to experiment. On any given day where are you lips giving you the most "snap" and "zip" is probably more useful than anything you read here.

In my head I don't have any goal of optimum lip placement for the RO - I see the lips as embarking in a never ending optimization process and I am like a passenger looking on if that makes any sense.

Nice to have a bit more discussison on this forum after a quiet few months..

all the best and stay safe

steve in Helsinki
_________________
My Number 1 supporter
http://langdons.com/images/langdon-image.jpg
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
trumpetteacher1
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 11 Nov 2001
Posts: 3398
Location: Garland, Texas

PostPosted: Mon Jul 12, 2021 6:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mike ansberry wrote:
So I should practice Roll Out # & 4 with the boundary of the "fleshy part" of the lower lip out of the mouth mouthpiece up into the upper range and not let it roll in?


There is no absolute answer to this question. Different players roll back in to different degrees, depending on their lip architecture. Please reread page 70.

The first thing to know is whether or not you can play the pedals with a setup like the pictures on page 63. That is the starting point. For some players this is the easiest thing in the world. Not so for everyone.

If you email me a video, I can give direct feedback.

Jeff
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Forrest_M
New Member


Joined: 01 Jul 2023
Posts: 2

PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2023 7:24 pm    Post subject: Roll out Reply with quote

I understand that different embouchures roll in and out to differing degrees.

If the right double pedal pitch is reached, but the tone is not as clean as the ones on the cd, will effectiveness suffer?

Thanks.
_________________
- Forrest
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
trumpetteacher1
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 11 Nov 2001
Posts: 3398
Location: Garland, Texas

PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2023 8:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are parts of BE that are very much sound-based. Think Bill Adam, but with a different emphasis.

Q: If the right double pedal pitch is reached, but the tone is not as clean as the ones on the cd, will effectiveness suffer?

A: Yes (see note at bottom)

Q: If the zips are not as robust as on the CD, will effectiveness suffer?

A: Yes

Q: If the snaps are not notched in place as illustrated on the CD, will the proper development of slurs suffer?

A: Yes

Mac Gollehon (a monster player) wrote this a few months ago on the Callet forum, regarding his early visits to the Callet studio:

"in regards to the sound in the double pedals during Jerome's Trumpet Yoga phase as I said was like a contra bass clarinet but thinking further on it the sound was more metallic than that and extremely compact center. No one I saw got that sound as they were too tight in the corners or stretched, thinned out. Many students were loud but unfocused, blatty and spread in that register and it carried over throughout the other registers..... I took a couple hours to get it and as I said I didn’t hear that sound from any of the others and I heard most of them. That means something was missing in their setup."

In the same thread, Rich Colquhoun (a Callet teacher) writes:

"Chasing the correct sound is, at least for me, the most difficult thing to teach with any era of Jerome's teaching. I've particularly found that the more education people have had the more difficult it is to teach them that "a good sound" that they've been taught with musical performance in mind and the correct sound for this exercise or for this method to bear fruit are not the same thing."

On page 64 of the BE book, I point out that having the correct sound means that you lips are doing the right thing. And while getting the correct sound doesn't mean that you will instantly have a great upper register, it does mean that you now have an important element in place.

Jeff
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Forrest_M
New Member


Joined: 01 Jul 2023
Posts: 2

PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2023 9:26 am    Post subject: BE Reply with quote

Thanks for the detailed clarification.

I'm working BE step-by-step as written. It has been positive, even at this early stage.
_________________
- Forrest
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
JayKosta
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 24 Dec 2018
Posts: 3276
Location: Endwell NY USA

PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2023 10:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trumpetteacher1 wrote:
...
In the same thread, Rich Colquhoun (a Callet teacher) writes:

"Chasing the correct sound is, at least for me, the most difficult thing to teach with any era of Jerome's teaching. I've particularly found that the more education people have had the more difficult it is to teach them that "a good sound" that they've been taught with musical performance in mind and the correct sound for this exercise or for this method to bear fruit are not the same thing."

On page 64 of the BE book, I point out that having the correct sound means that you lips are doing the right thing. ...

-----------------------
Is there any description or audio example of the 'correct sound' for those exercises? And what is the difference in technique or approach for producing the 'exercise correct sound' compared to the conventional 'good sound'.
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
kehaulani
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 23 Mar 2003
Posts: 8965
Location: Hawai`i - Texas

PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2023 1:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JayKosta wrote:

Is there any description or audio example of the 'correct sound' for those exercises? And what is the difference in technique or approach for producing the 'exercise correct sound' compared to the conventional 'good sound'.

Jay if you were a BE guy you would know - the BE book comes with a CD with Roll Out example sounds.
_________________
"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird

Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Getzen Capri Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
steve0930
Veteran Member


Joined: 07 May 2018
Posts: 186

PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2023 11:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi
"Is there any description of the correct sound"
It's like my Dad's old petrol lawn lawn mower ticking over. After we'd cut the grass we'd have a game of croquet. A two hour dual. Then drinks. I miss him.
Steve
_________________
My Number 1 supporter
http://langdons.com/images/langdon-image.jpg
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Jamer
New Member


Joined: 23 Aug 2022
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2023 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm doing roll-out for quite some time now. I can produce this "lawn-mower" sound, but I've got some problems reaching the correct pitch in the double-pedals area. Is this ok?

It sounds almost like this: https://youtu.be/T7za4dPMk7U
But I can't hit the correct pitch of the lower notes like he does and sometimes I overshoot/undershoot the high notes. I guess the excercise needs more time & training

g''' is the absolute limit for me at the moment, even with "rolled-in" lips.

Overall, the feeling is light and playing the trumpet has never been that easy and stable for me. But the range is still kinda stuck. I will keep doing the BE excercises and explore where it leads me.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
trumpetteacher1
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 11 Nov 2001
Posts: 3398
Location: Garland, Texas

PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2023 7:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jamer, you can send me an email with questions. You can also post videos for me to take a look at. I will be happy to respond. There is no charge.

If you have purchased the BE book, it is part of the deal.

Jeff
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Jamer
New Member


Joined: 23 Aug 2022
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2023 10:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

trumpetteacher1 wrote:
Jamer, you can send me an email with questions. You can also post videos for me to take a look at. I will be happy to respond. There is no charge.

If you have purchased the BE book, it is part of the deal.

Jeff


Hy Jeff,

Thanks for the offer. I'm gonna make 3 mobile-phone Videos this weekend including:

1. Off-horn-excercises: Lip-Clamp, Lip-clamp-squeak, Lip-expander from Malte Burba which I do serveral times a day (when the Lips feel tired, I'm not doing them for a day or two & take a break). I feel this gives my lips strength.

2. Warm-up: Variations of your ALS and another scales exercise through my range to get the air-flow going and the lips warmed up.

3. Exercises of your book: Roll-In 3 or 4 & Roll-out 4 and TOL 1. I just recently started TOL, it feels kinda weird but I'm looking forward were it leads me to.

I will upload those videos on Youtube and send you the links. Thanks for your help.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
trumpetteacher1
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 11 Nov 2001
Posts: 3398
Location: Garland, Texas

PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2023 9:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Jamer,

It sounds good. Again, better to communicate with me via email when you want in-depth advice.

But here are a couple general comments for fellow BE'ers.

1. Off the horn exercises are the least important.

2. There is no need to do a warm up prior to a BE routine. If you do the exercises in the order advised, the warm up is already built in.

3. TOL and ALS are part of the core BE exercises. It is always preferable to get these solid before going very deeply into the extreme range of motion exercises (RI and RO).

If you use Youtube, I advise making it a private channel.

Jeff
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> The Balanced Embouchure All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group