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Conn Victor 80A Cornet


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dershem
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 10, 2021 6:18 pm    Post subject: Conn Victor 80A Cornet Reply with quote

I have several friends who have these and rave about them. I have played on several of those and like it quite a bit. So I got one.
However, there is one thing abut it that is ... a concern.
The horn plays nicely and in tune. A small change in mouthpiece really affects the sound a lot. That is good.
But there is no 3rd valve ring, and because of the way the horn is built, there is no way to attach one.
But...
Have any of you ever put a trigger on the 3rd valve slide?
I don't want to change the horn too much, but I have this thing about being in tune.
Thanks.
cd
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Shifty
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 10, 2021 6:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Many horns designed for that era were built with the third valve slide just a bit longer than it "should be." Thus, any combination using the third valve will play just a bit flatter than most other horns.

That makes it easy to lip down the 1-3 and 1-2-3 combinations and lip up the 2-3 combinations. Seems to work pretty well.
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Andy Cooper
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 10, 2021 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bach makes a first valve slide thumb hook to retro fit older horns without converting to a reverse slide. [CSP30142] on Mouthpieceexpress.com
The hook is on a piece of brass a couple of inches long that solders on to the 1st slide crook. It's a lot cheaper than creating a trigger.

I did something similar to that to a 1953 Vic. Worked pretty well for 1&3, 1&2&3 combinations.
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delano
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2021 1:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's a nice idea of Andy, the Bach hook, but it's complicated on an 80A. It's only possible to operate that hook with your right thumb, for the left thumb is no room cause of the opera glass tuning system. Maybe it's doable with the right thumb but it needs some coordination practice I think.
But honestly I don't think it's necessary at all. The old Conns are indeed built with a slightly longer third slide so lipping the problematic notes is not difficult and the slotting is not that tight that the sound will suffer (much).
In fact the low D sounds great, low C# is just under 100%, you have to practice these notes separately.


Last edited by delano on Sun Jul 11, 2021 8:07 am; edited 1 time in total
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Richard III
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2021 6:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shifty wrote:
Many horns designed for that era were built with the third valve slide just a bit longer than it "should be." Thus, any combination using the third valve will play just a bit flatter than most other horns.

That makes it easy to lip down the 1-3 and 1-2-3 combinations and lip up the 2-3 combinations. Seems to work pretty well.


On my 80A it takes very little of that. So much so, I'm not even aware of it. Such a well made horn. So in tune. Makes me wonder what's wrong with modern instruments. I have a baritone horn that is also the same. So it can be done, why aren't they doing it?
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Andy Cooper
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 12, 2021 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

delano wrote:
It's a nice idea of Andy, the Bach hook, but it's complicated on an 80A. It's only possible to operate that hook with your right thumb, for the left thumb is no room cause of the opera glass tuning system. .


True - it might not work with the Bach hook. I had Roy Lawler make one that clamped on next to the crook and used an adjustable hook - sort of like some Olds trumpets. It did work with the left thumb - guess it depends on how big your hands are.
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dershem
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 12, 2021 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
On my 80A it takes very little of that. So much so, I'm not even aware of it. Such a well made horn. So in tune. Makes me wonder what's wrong with modern instruments. I have a baritone horn that is also the same. So it can be done, why aren't they doing it?


I know that feeling. My valve bone needs to have the 3rd valve slide pushed out about 5/8" before it can play even close to in tune. I haven't played anything more recent (mine dates from 1951), but ... what I've seen really hasn't been much different. Very little development.[/quote]
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nieuwguyski
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2021 9:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quite a few years ago I remember an English repair tech posting images on his website of his modification of an 80A, in which he elegantly reversed the top tube of the third slide and installed a fixed ring. He even made a cutting die from scratch to duplicate the shape of the between-the-tubes bracing and brazed on curved mounting plates just to add an original-looking structural reinforcement to his mod.

I have a 48A Vocabell cornet that was somewhat less-elegantly modified to add a third-slide ring: The top tubes of the third slide were swapped, and bracing was removed as necessary. A generic third-slide ring was soldered onto the now-female top tube. The Vocabell is so massively over-engineered the loss of bracing has had no apparent effect on structural integrity. Feel free to argue that the loss of original bracing has changed much more than just the structural integrity, but I played that modified horn for a long time, until the valves started showing their age. It's now in the "waiting for money for a valve job" group of horns.
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deleted_user_687c31b
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2021 11:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been wondering whether it would be possible for my own cornet to 3D-print a thumb ring and 'clip' it onto the center of the slide's bend, going slightly around the tubing up to the valve block where the ring would be. It would be a bit lengthy, but lightweight and removable. Maybe such a thing could work for your cornet? You'd likely have to design and print it yourself though.
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harryjamesworstnightmare
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2021 7:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just use your lip It's a much smaller adjustment than on any modern horn due to the longer 3rd slide on the 80A.
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Morifori
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2021 11:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My high school band kid plays an 80A and refuses to consider a "modern" horn because she doesn't wantto have to mess with moving slides while playing.

Obviously she's not a serious musician but she is always in tune.
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Shawnino
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2021 6:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Morifori wrote:
My high school band kid plays an 80A and refuses to consider a "modern" horn because she doesn't wantto have to mess with moving slides while playing.

Obviously she's not a serious musician but she is always in tune.


Sounds serious to me--or at least seriously clever.
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Morifori
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2021 8:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is seriously lazy an option?

School might be interesting this year. Before the pandemic, the band director had a plan to purchase a set of matching trumpets for the advanced band. If they got the funding for it, my kid will be forced to not only learn to play a modern instrument, she'll be forced to play <insert shudder of horror here> a trumpet.
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Andy Cooper
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2021 1:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Morifori wrote:
Is seriously lazy an option?

School might be interesting this year. Before the pandemic, the band director had a plan to purchase a set of matching trumpets for the advanced band. If they got the funding for it, my kid will be forced to not only learn to play a modern instrument, she'll be forced to play <insert shudder of horror here> a trumpet.


Well - she should keep the 80A for high register work - seriously. A Warburton M style cup, a 4 or KT backbore.
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Morifori
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2021 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

At risk of sounding like an ignorant violinist, is that a good mouthpiece for high register and does it come in the old Conn taper?

The kid hasn't really explored mouthpieces and is using the Conn 4 that came with the cornet because others we've tried don't fit right.
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nieuwguyski
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2021 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I will say that on my 1923 80A I can hear that the Eb and Ab are low, and I have cracked Ab's in performance when the chord calls for a higher concert Gb than I can comfortably lip up to.

My 80A has the quick-change-to-A mechanism so I've never been willing to modify the third slide, but if I had an 80A with no mechanism I'd be tempted.
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Andy Cooper
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2021 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Morifori wrote:
At risk of sounding like an ignorant violinist, is that a good mouthpiece for high register and does it come in the old Conn taper?

The kid hasn't really explored mouthpieces and is using the Conn 4 that came with the cornet because others we've tried don't fit right.


I'm not recommending that backbore /top combination specifically for high register - I'm pointing out that the .485 bore of the cornet can be quite a handful and it responds well to smaller backbores and cups of medium depth while still giving a good sound (closer to a trumpet than cornet.)

You can get mouthpieces with backbore shanks made to fit the older Conn cornets, get a mouthpiece maker to alter an existing mouthpiece to fit, or have a mouthpiece maker cut the shank from your Conn 4 and thread it to fit other mouthpiece tops.
(Discussion about why your Bach doesn't fit right)
https://cderksen.home.xs4all.nl/ConnArticle34.html


The Conn 4 has a rim similar to a Bach 2 with a cup similar to the one found on a Bach 2C. (I started on a Conn 4. Nice sound - don't like the rim.)

If your daughter is going to play both the 80A and a marching trumpet, it would be nice for her to use mouthpieces with the same rim. If interested, you might start a discussion in the Mouthpiece Forum.
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deleted_user_687c31b
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2021 3:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Morifori wrote:
If they got the funding for it, my kid will be forced to not only learn to play a modern instrument, she'll be forced to play <insert shudder of horror here> a trumpet.

I’m assuming you’re half-joking, but if I may offer a bit of friendly advice: please make sure that your kid isn’t forced into something that makes her lose interest in playing. It’d be a shame if she quit playing because a random band director feels it looks better if the whole section is playing cheap but shiny trumpets. Trumpets aren’t inherently better than cornets, just different, and newer doesn’t neccesarily equal better either. Your kid’s got a decent instrument and enjoys playing it? That’s something to encourage rather than ‘fix’.

Of course, it may turn out to be a major motivational boost for your kid, in which case you can disregard my comment.
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Morifori
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2021 8:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the MP info!

As far as being "forced" to play trumpet...I am joking a bit. It might be good for the kid to try new things. I suspect she'd probably continue with both instruments: trumpet for school and cornet with the private lessons. And I'd rather she marched with someone else's horn, to be honest.

The "matching" trumpets are more for matching sound, not appearances--many kids in the trumpet section don't have good instruments and one of them isn't even playing a trumpet .

(The entire marching band trumpet section isn't getting matching instruments, only those who also play in the smaller advanced group.)
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Richard III
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2021 8:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

First off, the Conn 4 is a fabulous mouthpiece and works wonderfully well in the 80A. I finally got a Conn 4 to find out what the truth was for myself. I found out that it has a very nice rim feel, a medium cup depth and the sound is very nice. I can't see switching to anything else.

Second, all this talk about matching instruments drives me crazy. That and the blending stuff people go on and on about. I've played in so many groups and everyone had different horns. From a trumpet section with an old Olds, a Yamaha rotary, a Bach 43, a Shires and me on an old Conn cornet to anything else you can think of. No one ever said anything doesn't work. We play to blend and when we solo, we can stand out if we want.
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