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There is a Disservice Being Done to Young Trumpeters


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HackAmateur
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 10, 2021 7:52 pm    Post subject: There is a Disservice Being Done to Young Trumpeters Reply with quote

Most of the trumpet high range "advice" online is purely applying to players who aren't average, whether that means above or below average, when it comes to RANGE.

I know this because, over the years, I searched a lot for tips on increasing my trumpet range. Even on this website (Trumpet Herald), I encountered one extreme or the other. What do I mean by anomalies, you might ask?

Well, I mean that I was told only two camps of trumpet players exist when it comes to range, based on things I read on this website and other websites...

Either:
1.) You're a "High D Trumpet Player", whose highest note is High D and you either airball or play an extremely weak High Eb, but nothing after that.
OR
2.) You're a "Double High C Player", who discovered the "trick" or gimmick that magically increased your range from High D to Double High C and beyond.

This is bullcrap, to put it as nicely as I can put it.

Lots of trumpet players probably have a range somewhere between "High D" and "Double High C+", but those players are SEVERELY underrepresented online. Why is that the case? I'm asking as a player who DOES fall into the middle ground category.

It turns out my highest (usable in performance) trumpet note is High F#. I've played a G# above High C before, but I've never played a single note higher than that, period. People like me apparently don't exist online at all, except for me I guess.

The thing is... when young trumpeters read "I'm great at High D" and "With pure technique alone, I became a limitless range player", they don't actually get the memo that there's a middle ground. They don't get to understand the fact that there are players who have a range that is between "High D" and infinite range. They read what people say, and they read people saying "take my course", so they believe playing high notes is some kind of "gimmick".

There's no gimmick to playing high notes. You need a strong embouchure and you need to practice playing high notes regularly. If your underlying fundamentals are sound prior to doing that, you will gain range over time, gradually.

THERE ISN'T A GIMMICK. There's no "take my course and in one month, you'll be blasting out Double High C's, even though your highest note was regular High C prior to that". That is FAKE.

I know some people will respond "disagreeing" with my opinion simply because they make a living off desperate young trumpeters who want to increase their range quickly. I doubt that disagreement will be genuine, OBVIOUSLY. But, that's fine. If you offer an expensive course on how to play high notes, I don't expect you to like the fact that somebody is pointing out the truth and exposing your course as a total sham.

Young trumpeters are being told that the strength of their chops "doesn't matter", that it's "all technique", and the people saying this have been playing trumpet for decades. Yeah, I guess if you've been playing for decades, you probably don't have any more muscular development in your chops. They're fully developed. Congratulations. But, that doesn't mean a beginner or intermediate young trumpet player has the same chops as you. And it doesn't mean "pure technique" is how young trumpeters will increase their range... if their chops aren't strong enough for a high range yet, "technique" won't do anything for them at all. Technique only works if you already have strong chops, but there's a technique barrier to your higher range. In most cases, that's not what is happening to prevent high notes.

This is insane and it needs to stop. Whoever is making a living off selling bullcrap courses for players with weak chops... I'm sorry, but you need to gig more or something. Find a way to make money that doesn't require totally discarding your morality, please.

My highest usable note is a High F# above High C. The highest note I've ever played in my life was a High G# above High C. Literally, I've played no notes higher than that. BUT, I'm not a "high D" player. If you ARE a High D player, I want to let you know: that's a real range barrier. You will pass that range barrier, that High D barrier. However, it will take practice and dedication. There are no "gimmicks" or tricks that will make you magically unlock an entire octave of range out of nowhere. This is bullcrap and needs to stop being marketed to you.

Thanks, everyone!

I had to get that off my chest because I was once that young trumpeter looking for answers, but instead of answers, I found very expensive "courses" that promised miracles. There aren't any miracles.
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Jaw04
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 10, 2021 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Hack,

I agree with a lot of your post. It is totally true that there's no gimmick or course that can guarantee super range. There is no way you can blast out double Cs if you were stuck on a high C before in one week, like you said (although you might be able to touch that double C or at least G quietly with a few tweaks to your approach).

It's also true that there are a lot of players working their range between D and double C, I am also one of those. I have played up to double C a few times but it's very quiet and unusable in real-life playing situations.

I somewhat disagree though about a couple things: the point about magically unlocking an octave of range out of nowhere, to be honest, I have had days where I have "magically" been able to play much higher than other days, and I try to really figure out why that is the case. And through that process I eventually make those notes more consistent, more centered, and more usable. I don't think it's really about muscular development past the high school level. There are many dedicated hard-working college trumpet majors that haven't figured out high notes yet, and it's more about technique than strength in my opinion. But I like your post and I'm just adding my 2 cents.
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HackAmateur
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 10, 2021 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jaw04 wrote:
Hi Hack,

I agree with a lot of your post. It is totally true that there's no gimmick or course that can guarantee super range. There is no way you can blast out double Cs if you were stuck on a high C before in one week, like you said (although you might be able to touch that double C or at least G quietly with a few tweaks to your approach).

It's also true that there are a lot of players working their range between D and double C, I am also one of those. I have played up to double C a few times but it's very quiet and unusable in real-life playing situations.

I somewhat disagree though about a couple things: the point about magically unlocking an octave of range out of nowhere, to be honest, I have had days where I have "magically" been able to play much higher than other days, and I try to really figure out why that is the case. And through that process I eventually make those notes more consistent, more centered, and more usable. I don't think it's really about muscular development past the high school level. There are many dedicated hard-working college trumpet majors that haven't figured out high notes yet, and it's more about technique than strength in my opinion. But I like your post and I'm just adding my 2 cents.


I appreciate your feedback on this. By the way, glad to see another person working on range between High D and Double C other than just myself!

I have great range days that seem 'magical', too, sometimes. Those are the days I blast out a Double G# (G# above High C). However, it's not REALLY magic or a miracle. It's just that I can play that note sometimes, therefore I have the potential to play it regularly, but I just haven't unlocked that potential yet.

I'm working on things just as you are. I just wish more people on our level were represented online. That way, people desperate for higher range don't get scammed with bullcrap courses that cost an arm and a leg.

I'm fine with somebody offering TRUMPET LESSONS. But, if you're telling somebody that your lesson will give them an entire octave of range, that's a scam, not a real trumpet lesson.

I'm trying to bright light to that particular point, here.
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Jaw04
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 10, 2021 8:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree, it can be miraculous to find those notes in the practice room, but...

It's definitely more valuable for folks to work on making the notes they can hit more locked in and ready to go in any playing situation. I can get up to G consistently in the practice room but could potentially still miss it frequently on gigs both improvising or playing a chart... so most of my practice is trying to simulate real playing situations. That's where the real time and practice goes into play. That doesn't happen in a week.
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HackAmateur
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 10, 2021 8:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jaw04 wrote:
I agree, it can be miraculous to find those notes in the practice room, but...

It's definitely more valuable for folks to work on making the notes they can hit more locked in and ready to go in any playing situation. I can get up to G consistently in the practice room but could potentially still miss it frequently on gigs both improvising or playing a chart... so most of my practice is trying to simulate real playing situations. That's where the real time and practice goes into play. That doesn't happen in a week.


Exactly right. It doesn't happen in a week.

Also, I can't play the G in gigs either. My highest usable note for gigs is the High F# above High C. Yes, in the practice room, I can play a G or maybe G# depending on the day. But that's not gig-ready. It's just two notes I haven't mastered yet, so therefore I can't actually play them in gigs reliably. Same as what you're saying!

It's going to take time. It'll take me practicing fundamentals as always, combined with me specifically practicing range (which I'm doing twice a week), to eventually unlock the G and G# notes as usable notes. Until then, I'm a High F# player.

Unlocking these very high notes takes time, proper practice (that's where a trumpet teacher comes in handy), and practicing the correct stuff for range.

Without doing those things, most people will never increase range. But make no mistake: there aren't simply 'high d players' and 'limitless' players. There's no gimmick.

It's always hard work, persistence, dedication, and proper practice. No tricks.
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JoseLindE4
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 10, 2021 8:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I spent most of my professional life with a hard cap roughly around G above high C. There might be an occasional G# or A, but they were tiny. Several times, I stumbled on an approach that gave me an extra octave +, but it didn’t make sense to me, so I wrote it off as unnecessary. I’d accidentally do it every few years, become intrigued, and then call it a dead end after 3 or 4 days and go back to focusing on more valuable things.

A few years ago I decided to dedicate 5 minutes a day at the end of my fundamental routine to see if I could make this other way work. It seemed like a small commitment that wouldn’t hurt anything. It wasn’t an embouchure change, but it was radically different enough that it seemed like a different setup.

I tried the approach again and immediately, I could play an extra octave. I didn’t get stronger, I changed how I conceived of things. Double C doesn’t feel like it takes any more effort than high C. It might, but it doesn’t feel like it.

The notes came instantly, but it took a lot of time to integrate them with normal range and it took time to get any volume. It was maybe a year and a half before I felt confident using the new notes in performance, but they were there from day one.

If you’re pushing against a wall and it isn’t moving, you might not ever get strong enough to push over the wall, but you might learn how to walk around it.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 10, 2021 10:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hack, how can you say these tricks/techniques or whatever, to play higher are scams etc?

If you can’t play high, how can you judge if they work or not? Maybe one of these teachers could assess what you are doing wrong and show you how to improve?

I can’t play much higher than a useable E, so I’m definitely no expert, but I would never dream of saying teachers that can scream out super C’s all day long, are not capable of teaching the technique or method of playing much higher.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2021 4:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

While it requires some strength, the main focus should be on muscle coordination.
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HackAmateur
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2021 5:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JoseLindE4 wrote:
I spent most of my professional life with a hard cap roughly around G above high C. There might be an occasional G# or A, but they were tiny. Several times, I stumbled on an approach that gave me an extra octave +, but it didn’t make sense to me, so I wrote it off as unnecessary. I’d accidentally do it every few years, become intrigued, and then call it a dead end after 3 or 4 days and go back to focusing on more valuable things.

A few years ago I decided to dedicate 5 minutes a day at the end of my fundamental routine to see if I could make this other way work. It seemed like a small commitment that wouldn’t hurt anything. It wasn’t an embouchure change, but it was radically different enough that it seemed like a different setup.

I tried the approach again and immediately, I could play an extra octave. I didn’t get stronger, I changed how I conceived of things. Double C doesn’t feel like it takes any more effort than high C. It might, but it doesn’t feel like it.

The notes came instantly, but it took a lot of time to integrate them with normal range and it took time to get any volume. It was maybe a year and a half before I felt confident using the new notes in performance, but they were there from day one.

If you’re pushing against a wall and it isn’t moving, you might not ever get strong enough to push over the wall, but you might learn how to walk around it.


Yeah you're right. It's not always chops holding somebody back.

I mean, if your range barrier is NOT strength-related, meaning your chops are already developed enough to hold higher lip compression than your current max range, then yes, technique will end up being the thing that unlocks more range.

But, think of the young high school trumpet player who practices one hour a day, practices incorrectly (doesn't do their fundamentals properly), doesn't focus on having a good sound because they don't know how, etc. In almost ever case like that, they haven't developed their chops enough, so it probably really is strength/developmental. Not just strength, but they need private lessons from somebody who knows how to teach fundamentals properly. This is different from a gimmick, though.

If you're a pro player who has been stuck on G above High C for years, your chops are already very strong, so it's likely a technique thing at that point.

The problem I see is there's a bunch of high school players whose chops literally aren't strong enough to play a High D or High Eb with good control... and with underdeveloped chops, these players search for techniques or think range is some kind of magic trick. When your chops simply aren't strong enough to hold that kind of compression, no amount of tricks will unlock forte-volume High Eb. They need stronger chops, which times time and work... and usually, they also need a teacher so they get their fundamentals right.

EDIT: Had to fix my horrible spelling and grammar.
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Last edited by HackAmateur on Sun Jul 11, 2021 5:46 am; edited 1 time in total
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HackAmateur
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2021 5:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rapier232 wrote:
Hack, how can you say these tricks/techniques or whatever, to play higher are scams etc?

If you can’t play high, how can you judge if they work or not? Maybe one of these teachers could assess what you are doing wrong and show you how to improve?

I can’t play much higher than a useable E, so I’m definitely no expert, but I would never dream of saying teachers that can scream out super C’s all day long, are not capable of teaching the technique or method of playing much higher.


Well, I'm not saying high note experts can't help somebody increase their range.

What I'm saying is, in a lot of cases, the younger players legitimately don't have enough strength in their chops to actually hold their embouchure in place for notes like High E. So, for them, they should be focusing on two things:

1.) Fundamentals (this is where they need a teacher to do things correctly as possible)
and
2.) Developing their chops.

If your chops are already developed and your embouchure doesn't actually fail, you've encountered a range break. So yeah, at that point, I would agree with you that a high note expert would be extremely helpful.

Just I think we shouldn't be offering "high note courses" to players who reach embouchure failure when trying to play a High Eb. They're literally not ready for extreme upper register yet.

If my range gains stop, I will probably reach out to a high note expert for lessons and pay them to help me. But, before I do that, I'll make sure it isn't weak chops holding me back.

I hope that makes sense.
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As a composer, I will never write "B Sharp", "C Flat", "E Sharp", or "F Flat". I don't care what the key signature is. I'm not an academic; I'm a musician.

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area51recording
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2021 9:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's worse now with all the online stuff, but not a new phenomenon. "Double High C in 37 Weeks" has been around a LOT longer than YouTube.....
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 12, 2021 1:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

area51recording wrote:
It's worse now with all the online stuff, but not a new phenomenon. "Double High C in 37 Weeks" has been around a LOT longer than YouTube.....


Yeah. I just don't like to see beginners and barely intermediate players focusing on the wrong stuff or stuff that isn't going to help them at all.

Like, if your highest reliable note is between Regular High G (on top of staff) and Regular High C (two ledger-lines), and your embouchure breaks down when attempting to play higher than that... if that's where a player is at in terms of range development, I think that they ought to be focused on fundamentals primarily.

When they run into a range barrier that doesn't involve their embouchure collapsing when reaching for higher notes, THAT is when technique and efficiency comes into play.

But if you're airballing High D with your buccinators going to muscle failure from trying to play it, you're not ready for very high notes yet and any "high note course" will be snake oil until your chops are strong enough for the very high notes.

When I say "very high notes", I mean all the notes between High C and the G above it, to clarify. If your chops break down from trying to play a High D or High Eb, you aren't going to unlock those 7 semitones above High C until your chops are strong enough.

People downplay strength a lot, but the people downplaying strength have almost always been playing for many years correctly and diligently, meaning they've developed their chops.

My highest (usable) note is High F# above High C. When I play a High C#, to me it feels like it has nothing to do with strength. But, it does. Somebody whose chops can barely hold the lip compression for High C is going to absolutely need more strength to play a nice High C#.

When your chops are developed enough to easily play from High C to the G above it easily, High C# feels like it's "technique-only" to you. But to somebody with undeveloped chops, they will LITERALLY need more strength in their facial muscles. It's not all technique if you don't have the strength yet!

A beginner who has been playing for 1 month and struggles with G# on top of the staff probably doesn't need "better high note technique". They need stronger chops. This is why fundamentals are so critical.

EDIT: Bad grammar again. Had to fix it.
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As a composer, I will never write "B Sharp", "C Flat", "E Sharp", or "F Flat". I don't care what the key signature is. I'm not an academic; I'm a musician.

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HERMOKIWI
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 12, 2021 6:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It takes a long time to develop high range and there are no shortcuts. However, high range is primarily a technique thing and not a strength thing. Sure, it takes strength to hold the embouchure in place when playing in the extreme high register but the amount of strength required is overestimated by players who think that strength is the answer. In fact, developing more and more strength can be counter productive if it interferes with applying the technique necessary for an easier high register.

For example a player with a certain degree of strength who fails to pivot (as defined by Reinhardt) is at a distinct disadvantage compared to a player with the same degree of strength who does pivot. Pivoting is a technique thing, not a strength thing. There is a knack to being able to play the high register, a touch which is difficult to describe, but the knack/touch is a technique thing and not a strength thing. Admittedly, mastering the technique can be very difficult but technique should not be minimized compared to strength. They are both necessary.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 12, 2021 6:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HackAmateur wrote:
... Somebody whose chops can barely hold the lip compression for High C is going to absolutely need more strength to play a nice High C#.
...
But to somebody with undeveloped chops, they will LITERALLY need more strength in their facial muscles. It's not all technique if you don't have the strength yet!

A beginner who has been playing for 1 month and struggles with G# on top of the staff probably doesn't need "better high note technique". They need stronger chops. This is why fundamentals are so critical. ...

--------------------------------------
I agree with what you've been writing, but I think there can be a lot of misunderstanding regarding things such as: lip compression, technique, strength, and fundamentals.

It seems to me (based on my own experience, and numerous posts here on TH) that the whole subject of technique and fundamentals is not well understood by many players. Many people have established their own (likely faulty) variety of technique and fundamentals and then attempt to expand their high range by using more force doing their faulty technique.

Being taught by a 'good teacher' can be a huge help: but it seems that many people have trouble finding (or listening to) one, or they are reluctant to do so. So they rely on info sources such as books, youtube, online sites, TH, etc. to get their 'education'.

Have you found a good 'non-teacher' source of information about technique and fundamentals?

I have an online document with my thoughts about 'embouchure basics' here -
http://users.hancock.net/jkosta/Embouchure_Basic_Concepts.htm
It is intended more as a guide to 'what has to be happening', rather than teaching 'how to do it'.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 12, 2021 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I tell people that I'm a "high E" trumpet player. But somebody might jump in and say "but I've heard you play D's above double high C on gigs". That may be true, but I don't like to advertise range that I'm not confident in every day. It takes a lot of work for me to sure up my range and get ready for a book like All Shook Up. I just don't maintain for that kind of playing year round.
I agree with a lot of things that people have said above. But, I think a clear thing is that it is not some kind of Herculean strength. If it were, great players in their 80's and 90's would not have been able to keep blowing high notes.
There is definitely technique or perhaps a "knack" to it along with a lot of hard work.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 12, 2021 9:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hack, you post that litany as if it's something new. It's not. Not even remotely.

Young players have been chasing range since well before I started playing trumpet 40 years ago, and these kids usually chase it by buying mouthpieces that are completely inappropriate for them, or trying to seek out some trick or technique that's going to magically unlock that stratospheric ability.

I'm also not aware that there was any kind of exclusion for the middle ground - guys who have range to F or G, but don't have the elusive "dubba." We've been talking about all of that for a couple of decades right here on this board - don't know how long you've been lurking here, but your join date suggests to me that you wouldn't know the past history of what's been talked about on this board because simply put, you weren't here.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2021 7:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trickg wrote:
Hack, you post that litany as if it's something new. It's not. Not even remotely.

Young players have been chasing range since well before I started playing trumpet 40 years ago, and these kids usually chase it by buying mouthpieces that are completely inappropriate for them, or trying to seek out some trick or technique that's going to magically unlock that stratospheric ability.

I'm also not aware that there was any kind of exclusion for the middle ground - guys who have range to F or G, but don't have the elusive "dubba." We've been talking about all of that for a couple of decades right here on this board - don't know how long you've been lurking here, but your join date suggests to me that you wouldn't know the past history of what's been talked about on this board because simply put, you weren't here.


Well, I know how to operate a search engine. I searched for these topics a lot before making this post. While it's true that guys who have a range between 'High D' and 'limitless' have been talked about, it has been rare according to my search results.

And of course, high note obsession has been around long before the internet, but my point is, with the internet, lots of nonsense about how to develop range has been able to circulate faster and to a larger number of trumpeters looking for range advice.

I won't deny that most trumpet players want those extra semitones in the upper register, and I won't deny that it's an old phenomenon. But internet is newer than the high note obsession itself and creates more confusion for those 'High D' players looking for more semitones than the confusion that existed prior to the internet being a big part of our world.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2021 8:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

..............with the internet, lots of nonsense about how to develop range has been able to circulate faster and to a larger number of trumpeters looking for range advice.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2021 12:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A lot has been mentioned about strength but I have not found that to be more than an equal part of the equation to me. To me it has been more about learning how to coordinate to keep the lips in line with the breath. This involves keeping the teeth open and the lips in line to receive the air. Without that no method can work to achieve upper register. If teeth or tongue interfere with breath to the lips, range will suffer in direct proportion to the amount of interference. If the lips receive air properly it seems more a matter of developing corner memory and coordination to amount of breath applied. The strength and coordination has been helped by playing softly in upper register. I am simply applying the 2 aperture theory of the Stevens system, no more than that / and I can now ~”play” dbl high c and up after 3 or so months. It simply corrected a mp placement issue and opened my jaw a little more. I’m not saying my high notes are anything I can use ina gig as accuracy simply doesn’t exist, but I’m hitting good notes waay up there. I hope I can build on this to bring more and more usable notes. I don’t think you could call this a method but it sure make sense to explore it. It’s all based on simply putting the lips where they can best respond. I wish someone had shown me this in 64’ when I started.
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HackAmateur
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2021 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rod Haney wrote:
A lot has been mentioned about strength but I have not found that to be more than an equal part of the equation to me. To me it has been more about learning how to coordinate to keep the lips in line with the breath. This involves keeping the teeth open and the lips in line to receive the air. Without that no method can work to achieve upper register. If teeth or tongue interfere with breath to the lips, range will suffer in direct proportion to the amount of interference. If the lips receive air properly it seems more a matter of developing corner memory and coordination to amount of breath applied. The strength and coordination has been helped by playing softly in upper register. I am simply applying the 2 aperture theory of the Stevens system, no more than that / and I can now ~”play” dbl high c and up after 3 or so months. It simply corrected a mp placement issue and opened my jaw a little more. I’m not saying my high notes are anything I can use ina gig as accuracy simply doesn’t exist, but I’m hitting good notes waay up there. I hope I can build on this to bring more and more usable notes. I don’t think you could call this a method but it sure make sense to explore it. It’s all based on simply putting the lips where they can best respond. I wish someone had shown me this in 64’ when I started.


I believe it!

But, you already had strong enough chops before adopting the Stevens System. If your chops weren't developed already, no theory would have worked very well for you. And that's what I'm saying here.

There are players with barely any development in their chops looking for "secrets" to expanding their range, and for them, there's no technique that will have them blasting out anything above High C or High D, because their chops aren't developed yet.

You had been playing for years and had great chops, so of course expanding your range truly was 'all technique'. That's why the Stevens System worked for you, but it probably wouldn't work for your average high school 10th grader who practices less than a half hour per day... they'd get frustrated and claim Stevens System "doesn't work" because Stevens System (or Maggio or anything else) can't give somebody strong chops. Chops have to be built from persistence and dedicated practice, proper fundamentals, etc., over time.

You had already put in that work, so you already had the chops.
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