There is a Disservice Being Done to Young Trumpeters

[HERMOKIWI]

[Robert P]

Where have you seen that few acknowledge players with range that falls between high D and dub C? I can't say I've gotten that sense.

I think it's true that some people have a natural predisposition for higher notes, but there's a continuum. There are people like Doc who take to the horn like they were born to play it, but from everything I've read about him and certain tangible recorded evidence in his earlier pro career he wasn't known for having outstanding range - he was probably a dependable F/G player for a long time. From what I've seen when Doc was with Steve Allen's Tonight Show, he could move around the horn like crazy but Ernie Shavers was the resident high note guy. Double C's didn't come naturally to Doc like they did for Maynard. Eventually Doc found the key to becoming a dependable double C and then some player - and there are visible cues to his changing approach if you look at film of him over time.

I struggled for a very long time with chronic embouchure issues, pretty much anything over a G on top of the staff was a question mark even after I'd been playing for a number of years. Sometimes high C and D would come out but it was never dependable, never felt anchored. Overall my embouchure was very unstable. What made a difference for me was experimentation, making certain changes and also *being aware* of specifics of what I was doing. Maybe there are teachers who can tell you very specifically how to manipulate your setup to play higher, I never encountered a teacher who could help me. Of course *now* I could tell my younger self what to do. 🎺
_________________
Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C

Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo

Chinese Flugel

[HackAmateur]

[JoseLindE4]

According to internet lore at least, Ghitalla taught an adult beginner how to play above high C in about 20 minutes. It was discussed here: https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=136537&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=20

From the linK:

[drboogenbroom]

Strength is task specific. Strength is a technique. My experience teaching is that separating and trying to "train" strength separate from technique typically causes more problems than it solves.

As someone plays, the muscles will gain strength to play that way, right or wrong.

We don't put a 18 month old on a leg press machine to improve their walking.

Just some thoughts.

Kevin
_________________
By concentrating on precision, one arrives at technique, but by concentrating on technique one does not arrive at precision.

Bruno Walter

[Rod Haney]

What I was really trying to say is more attention should be placed on the 2 aperture setup from the beginning. So that as other skills develop thru play and practice, range can grow with it naturally, not due to a change you had to make to correct a flaw you learned on your first day. I haven’t fully explored Stevens, but the 2 aperture system makes so much sense as a beginning to trumpet. I have truly thought this they and I see only advAntages to this.
Rod

[JayKosta]

[kalijah]

[HERMOKIWI]

I just did a another test. This time I wanted to see how much more chop strength it took me to go from a solid, loud D above high C up to an equally solid, loud double C. The answer is that it didn't take any more chop strength at all. What it took was more abdominal strength to support the more resisted air stream.

I'll restate my point about chop strength: If a high school age (or any age) player has a good, solid D above high C they have sufficient chop strength to play a double C and beyond. So, why can't they do it? In most cases the reason is relatively simple: The embouchure they use to play the D above high C is not consistent with the technique needed to play higher and because of that they are unable to make the technique adjustments necessary to play higher. If they try their sound typically falls apart because it alters their embouchure into an unplayable configuration.

We all have a limit on how high of a note we can play. That's because our physiology ultimately limits us. In my case I go from D above high C to double G to double C with a very simple adjustment: I raise the back of my lower lip up toward the back side of my upper lip and the pitch goes up. It is a lip compression technique. I'm limited by my physiology, however, in how far I can make that adjustment and, therefore, how high I can produce a note.

In my case the absolute limit has been G above double C. Even for that note the chop strength is the same as the chop strength for the D above high C. The difference is the positioning of the lower lip and the increased abdominal strength applied to keep the air stream going in the face of increased resistance.

If you think playing higher and higher and higher requires more and more and more chop strength you are chasing a fiction down a rabbit hole.

You report that you have the F# above high C but the double G is a problem. You think the problem is chop strength. If, in fact, the problem is chop strength it's because the embouchure you're using to play the F# above high C is not consistent with the technique necessary to play higher. So, you're trying to substitute chop strength for technique.

In fact, most players who are using an embouchure which is inconsistent with the technique needed to play higher and try to use chop strength as the basis for playing higher ultimately top out at about F# above high C. Some can ultimately get the double G but only with inconsistency and a lot of effort. That describes me 20 years ago, which is the point at which I figured out what embouchure and technique I needed to go a lot higher. So I've been there and have done that.

It sounds to me that this describes your situation. If you could apply the correct technique with the chop strength you already have you would see instantaneous and dramatic results without increasing your chop strength at all. Extreme high range is not the result of super human chop strength. It's a result of normal developed chop strength coupled with the technique needed to produce extreme high range. It's all about leverage, not chop strength.
_________________
HERMOKIWI

[kalijah]

Even the best technique requires increasing embouchure effort to ascend. But that trajectory can certainly be drastically improved with the right approach. "Strength" and "effort" are not the same thing.

As has been pointed out, high strength means less effort is required for a given task.

The best approach is to improve efficiency of effort AND strength. That gives headroom for fatigue, both chronic and acute.

[trickg]

[Robert P]

[HackAmateur]

[Shaft]

Wayne Bergeron and Jim Manley offer lessons on their websites.

Many other trumpeters who can walk the walk as well.

While a person cannot save all of the young kids from
information that may be a “disservice” to them……
……common sense is still available in the world.

It never hurts to find someone who CAN DO something
that you want to learn and study with them.

One cannot be too picky when sifting through

the free advice section of life. Discernment is on the individual.

[HERMOKIWI]

My first step in increasing my range was to learn more about how high range is actually produced. I acquired several publications by Pops McLaughlin including his publication entitled "How The Chops Work." These materials introduced me to methodologies about how resistance is created including lip to lip compression and increasing the length of the aperture tunnel.

I then began experimenting with these concepts. It took lot of experimentation over a long period of time before I arrived at my current approach. The process was to try things consistent with the concepts and see what worked and what didn't work. It was a trial and error process. My results were very inconsistent for a long time.

What I found was that the simpler and less extreme the process the better results I obtained. I ultimately arrived at my current method which is simply to push up the back of my lower lip so it slides up and behind my upper lip, thus increasing the length of the aperture tunnel. That method coordinated easily with my normal embouchure so it was easy for me to execute. It became a normal extension of my normal embouchure. It enabled me to play my entire range on a single embouchure setting. As I go higher I am just doing the thing I've described to a greater and greater extent.

Keep in mind that this motion is very slight. It is not exaggerated. If you watched me go from the D above high C to the double G and then to the double C you wouldn't notice any change in my embouchure at all. Everything is happening at and around the aperture. Nothing is happening at the corners, those remain constant.

So, what do I suggest for you? As I said in prior posts your personal physiology is a big factor in what is going to work for you. That being said, the thing that I think is a constant in developing range is aperture control. You want to focus on increasing the control of the aperture.

To do that you have to get in touch with the aperture. One way to do that is to do a simple exercise: Put a drinking straw in your mouth and grip it with your aperture. Get the feel of what it is to use just the muscles controlling your aperture.

If you're going to work on developing strength it's the muscles you use to grip the straw you want to work on. Those muscles are pretty weak compared to the muscles controlling the corners. They have to be developed so that you can consciously and actively control your aperture. That's what I'm doing with the technique I use. Other techniques may be more consistent with how your physiology dictates the shape of your embouchure but the principles of aperture control are the same.

Reconcile yourself to the fact that it's a trial and error thing. It can be very frustrating. I would do things that seemed to work to some extent one day but the next day I was getting inconsistent results. It's an evolving process. What I ultimately found was that I was trying to do too much. I was not focusing enough on just the aperture.

Some say that you want to make the aperture smaller and smaller. That would increase resistance but trying to make the aperture smaller and smaller didn't work for me. It might work for you. It might not work for you. What worked for me was increasing the length of the aperture tunnel. It might work for you. It might not work for you. As I said above. it's a trial and error thing and an evolving process.
_________________
HERMOKIWI

[JayKosta]

[HERMOKIWI]

[Denny Schreffler]

[Robert P]

[JayKosta]