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T.J. (Tony) Getzen - who was he? Many questions



 
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2021 4:26 am    Post subject: T.J. (Tony) Getzen - who was he? Many questions Reply with quote

The title says it all. While There is a lot I have come across regarding Tony Getzen, founder of the family firm, there are a great many blanks – and a lot of what I have encountered that is not often mentioned when his name comes up. This leaves a lot of questions – even such basics as how does someone named Anthony have the initials “T.J.”? Shouldn’t it be “A.J.”?

Per Tom Getzen, the family originated in Grand Rapids. However the verbose history that was present at the Getzen company website for many years until being replaced by the current timeline one made reference to starting the company in the family dairy barn – in Elkhorn. Grand Rapids or Elkhorn?

That same timeline says that Tony Getzen trained in instrument repair at C.G Conn, though it gives no dates. The history of Allied Music at that website however indicates not Conn, but York as a point of origin, 1913-1919. Conn or York apprenticeship?

The Allied history indicates that Tony Getzen became plant superintendent (essentially the boss, displacing original employee Mike Strong as the dominant force in Holton product direction) in 1930. Holton’s Harmony Hints however states that Tony Getzen was “returning” as Plant Superintendent in 1929. 1929 or 1930 ? Returning from where, during what years ??

The combination of these questions forms another hypothetical one: did Tony Getzen apprentice at York, near his family home, go to Holton in 1920, leave sometime before 1929 for a brief stint at Conn, and then “return” as the boss in 1929?

As Plant Superintendent, Tony Getzen led Holton through the Great Depression. He corrected founder Frank Holton’s optimistic mistake of purchasing the former Couturier factory in LaPorte for the Collegiate line, moving that back to Elkhorn. He introduced model numbers for the first time in 1931. He streamlined the product portfolio, focusing on new mainstream designs with the broadest appeal, and eliminating all of the niche market and artist-linked models that had high engineering cost with low sales volume. (In the process, he motivated Renold Schilke, who has apprenticed there shortly before and throughout his career embraced diversity in product offerings to better fit individual players, to leave and consult for Martin instead). In trumpets, he eliminated all the 2nd generation and carry-over designs, introducing the Model 30 and its 3 other variations plus the peashooter Streamline. By 1937, he managed to whittle that down to just the Model 30 which was then replaced, as were all remaining cornets, with a single Resotone model of each in 1938.

In 1938, the economy recovered sharply – just as Getzen achieved his greatest reduction in product offerings. After engineering the firm’s prosperity in tough times, he missed the opportunity when it came. In 1939 he left Holton, opening a small repair business from his home and the Resotones were replaced by a set of 4 (soon 5) Model 45 and Model 48 trumpets, and 3 cornet models all designed by Arvid Walters, who became chief design engineer the next year and remained so through 1981. Was Tony Getzen fired for heading the wrong way as the economy turned? In hindsight, would that be poor judgement as WWII shortly thereafter took the economy back to Depression-level spending? Would there be a Getzen company if the economy had not rebounded in 1938?

The design of the Holton trumpets and cornets produced under Tony Getzen, particularly the Resotones with their unique bell rim that was a cross between a French bead and a traditional krantz garland, were not only predictive of the Getzen Super Deluxe models that would follow years later, but had a strong central-European influence. According to Tom Getzen, Tony Getzen worked first in the repair department at Holton, which would have put him under Wm. Schuster, Holton’s head of repair and accomplished Saxon instrument maker in his own right. Who did Tony Getzen learn instrument making from? Was it someone German? At Conn? At York? Was it Wm. Schuster at Holton?

While T.J. Getzen had a huge impact on brassmaking in the 20th century, remarkably his date of birth, formal education (if any), the name of his wife and date of marriage – all of the details we see typically for other makers, including fairly minor ones by comparison – are absent from the histories. When was Tony Getzen born? Who was Mrs. Getzen?

So to summarize the questions I hope TH-ers may know some answers to, or anecdotes suggesting:
1) Did Tony Getzen start out in “the family dairy barn” environment in Elkhorn, or in Grand Rapids?
2) Did Tony Getzen apprentice at Conn or York?
3) What years was he at Conn, and in what positions(s)?
4) What years was he at York and in what position(s)?
5) What years was he first at Holton and in what position(s)?
6) Where was he “returning” from in 1929 when he became Holton’s plant super?
7) Was Tony Getzen fired from Holton in 1939 for having gone the wrong way with the product portfolio as the economy rebounded sharply in 1938?
8 ) Would there be a Getzen company if the economy had not rebounded in 1938?
9) Who did Tony Getzen learn specifically brass-making and design from?
10) Are the Holton Resotones and the Getzen Super Deluxes an aesthetic legacy of Wm. Schuster?
11) When was Tony Getzen born?
12) Who did he marry and when?
13) Did he go to college and if so where?
And finally, one more question all of the histories and the recurrent dominance of repair demand asking: Is Allied the core Getzen company, or Getzen ??
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Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com

2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20
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interfx
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2021 7:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I emailed you some scans I had in my files.

Based upon his WW1 draft card, Tony was born in Grand Rapids, MI, and was a brass instrument maker at Lyon & Healy in Chicago; June 1917. (I did not know that)

Will be great to hear what Brett shares, and what other details you find out.

Thanks -
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Getzen
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2021 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I will try to chime in with what I know off the top of my head.

1) Did Tony Getzen start out in “the family dairy barn” environment in Elkhorn, or in Grand Rapids?

T. J. Got his start in Grand Rapids, MI. By that, I mean he was born there.


2) Did Tony Getzen apprentice at Conn or York?
3) What years was he at Conn, and in what positions(s)?
4) What years was he at York and in what position(s)?

Not sure about any of these. One of his brothers worked at York for a time and another at Wurlitzer I think.


5) What years was he first at Holton and in what position(s)?

I’m not certain when he started at Holton. I have some paper work I’d have to dig through to find out exactly when he started and in what capacity.


6) Where was he “returning” from in 1929 when he became Holton’s plant super?

I’m not certain he was “returning” from anywhere.


7) Was Tony Getzen fired from Holton in 1939 for having gone the wrong way with the product portfolio as the economy rebounded sharply in 1938?

He was not fired from Holton in 1938. He left Holton sometime in 1937-38 for personal reasons. From what I recall, he intended to return following a leave of absence but the opportunity and desire to strike out on his own presented itself and he never went back.


8 ) Would there be a Getzen company if the economy had not rebounded in 1938?

Who knows for sure? The economic recovery did make it possible for him to establish Getzen, so perhaps not.


9) Who did Tony Getzen learn specifically brass-making and design from?

A definite answer to that question is lost to history.


10) Are the Holton Resotones and the Getzen Super Deluxes an aesthetic legacy of Wm. Schuster?

Again, lost to history.


11) When was Tony Getzen born?

1894, exact date I would have to look up.


12) Who did he marry and when?

Why does it matter? Do you want his mother’s maiden name and social security number too?


13) Did he go to college and if so where?

No


And finally, one more question all of the histories and the recurrent dominance of repair demand asking: Is Allied the core Getzen company, or Getzen ??

Not exactly sure what you mean. Instrument repair has been an integral part of the family history for sure (early days of Getzen, Allied Music, Allied Supply). But so has manufacturing (post war to 1961 Getzen, Allied Music via contract with DEG, Boosey & Hawkes, Canadian Brass, Edwards, and current Getzen)

Keep in mind there was some family drama dating back generations that complicated things. Not a ton of passed down oral history. Here’s a juicy tid bit, Anthony James Getzen was not his birth name.
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2021 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Do you want his mother’s maiden name and social security number too?

TJ Getzen's mother was Martha Meike (1864 - 1938), born in Hamburg, Prussia. She would not have had a Social Security number (died prior to the rollout of that program)

Mr. Getzen: Are you really going to leave us hanging on the birth name item?

interfx sent copies of some government documents, and those list him (US military) as Tony for a first name - which explains TJ. Both the Getzen name, and his parent's chosen Gietzen name are listed on the veteran's info. I had no idea he was a Sargent in the Michigan National Guard for 6 years prior to being drafted into Federal service at the same rank 1917-1919. Another debt of gratitude we owe him.

Tony Getzen is an incredibly significant figure in the history, and the practicality, of 20th century brass making. His accomplishments are worthy of note, and not being lost to the anonymity that has swallowed so many who shaped the art and science of the horns we benefit from as players today.

I, of course, sympathize that no family is "normal" over the course of time, and drama afflicts us all. I would hope to move past that and simply preserve a better understanding of who this man was who didn't just lend his name to the firm of today, but who played a vital role in another firm that was more central than any other to the evolution of the modern trumpet. As I begin to dig into this, I see that the family preceding the current company generations is noteworthy as well, and that their leadership abilities may well have been passed on from prior generations - the bold risk taker from the Gietzen/Meike side in Prussia, and the financially gifted and highly organized CEO from the Hartwell civic-oriented pioneering midwestern family whose name now occupies a street in Elkhorn just as the Getzen name equally deservedly does.

Please, if you have access to further information relative to these questions (ignore the family ones, those answers have been largely found with the singular exception of the relationship between Wallace Hartwell and Mayor Herbert E. Hartwell (father-in-law of TJ Getzen)), please share. This is an important history of an important professional to whom we all owe some respect in that capacity at the very least.

Oh, and as for the "returning" part, its late, so I am stopping my search with the first admittedly lesser of the references to this I read, but The Holton Bulletin, January 1929, Page 7 "We are glad to welcome Tony Getzen back to the organization to take complete charge of the saxophone department". The promotion to super would come later.
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Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com

2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20


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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2021 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My apologies to the Getzen family if I am sticking my nose where it doesn’t belong.

If this memorial is the correct one, Tony was born on April 10th 1894. Based on the trombone on the tombstone I am guessing it is the correct one.
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Getzen
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2021 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well aware of the lack of an SSN, it was a joke. If you’d like, I can go through family genealogy and get more info on TJ’s parents and siblings.

As for the 1929 return to Holton, that would coincide with the timeframe my grandfather and his siblings were being born. Perhaps a leave of absence to deal with an issue with his young family. I will see what I can find, but we’re running out of people to ask.

In regards to the name change, well that’s due to some good old fashioned father/son strife. Tony and two of his brothers didn’t get along with their father so they changed their names and left Michigan. Unfortunately, history repeated itself, to a lesser extent, with Tony and Bob. Obviously, there wasn’t a lot of family stories being passed down. Or at least not any unbiased tales. Most of the stories I know of Tony came from early employees. One in particular named George “Toby” Clauer that started with the company when he came home (to Elkhorn) after WWII. He worked for Getzen until the early 2000’s. A great, great man. Fun fact #2, Adam named his son after Toby.
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Getzen
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2021 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LittleRusty wrote:
My apologies to the Getzen family if I am sticking my nose where it doesn’t belong.

If this memorial is the correct one, Tony was born on April 10th 1894. Based on the trombone on the tombstone I am guessing it is the correct one.


That’s the one.
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Brett Getzen
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2021 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So on the family side, what I have found is rather interesting. The Getzens are an immigrant family on one side, and a part of the heart of Elkhorn dating back to its earliest days on the other. The two classic American stories manifesting in one family.

Tony Getzen’s father Peter J. Gietzen (9/13/1857 – 6/27/1930) was the son of John Peter Gietzen (1807-1862), who was born in Peterswald, Rhineland-Pfalz, Kreis Zell, near Koblenz, Prussia (Germany), and Anna Maria Pauli Siebel (1811-1880), born Woppenroth, Rhein-Hunsruck-Kreis, Rhineland-Palatinate (Germany). (Edit: Peter was born in Germany in his father's homr town, deleting prior note)

His mother was Martha Meike (1864 - 1938), who was born in Hamburg, Prussia (Germany).

Tony was first generation German-American. Think of what this must have meant as he was called upon to serve the American Army in World War One.

Tony married Leora Elizabeth Hartwell (2/3/1898-3/23/1960), who had 3 siblings, and came from a well established family in the region. Her father, Herbert Eugene Hartwell (1866-1940), was an Alderman, and then Mayor of Elkhorn 1912-14. Following the 1895 addition of city water to the region, he had been named to first city Fire Department in 1897. Leora’s mother was Edith Louise Wiswell Hartwell (1869-1914) .

An open question right now is the relationship between Herbert Hartwell and grocer Wallace Hartwell (5/25/1839-8/2/1909) who was old enough to have been Herbert’s father ( the first of Wallace’s documented children being born just 2 years later). Wallace was County Clerk 1867-1869, and Treasurer 1897-1900. Wallace’s wife was Helen Mary Isham, the daughter of a Sugar Creek blacksmith. Wallace was the son of local pioneer Daniel Hartwell (8/4/1801 - 2/19/1884) and Elizabeth Hamilton) Daniel came west from Granville, New York, and was the son of Phipps and Olive. It seems likely Herbert was a part of this family, but the relationship has not yet been identified.(One may reasonably guess uncle or cousin, but its a guess)

Tony and Leora then had 4 children: James Robert Getzen 1927 – 2/12/2003, Donald Earl Getzen 5/15/1928 – 7/8/2017, Sarasota Florida lawyer William Getzen (born 1933) and daughter Carol, who appears to have been born after the 1940 census and died sometime prior to Robert. The family branches that then were a part of Getzen, Allied, Edwards, and so on are much better documented.

So that makes for an interesting history of both a classic immigrant family and a pioneer one that never lost its sense of civic duty.

Unfortunately, that is what generally serves as introduction to the “meat” of examining a key figure in brass making. Now what is missing is his career details. There are several bits and pieces, but they don’t fit together very well. Someone of his import to the brass world of today deserves an effort to rediscover more than just who the great grandparents were.
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Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com

2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20


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Getzen
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2021 4:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well done. One bit of Elkhorn history, the Hartwells and Wiswells are both very large, long time Elkhorn families. Add to that my mother’s family (also large and long time Walworth County) and we are distantly related to most of Elkhorn.

Unfortunately, so much of Tony’s early career has been lost to history. Much like many of his contemporaries. I would love to know more of the how and why he did what he did. How did he decide on Chicago and then Elkhorn? How did he first meet Frank Holton? How did his friendship with Vincent Bach begin? And so on and so on. I’ll just have to wait for the great beyond to get those answers.

I will say two of my personal favorite moments were: 1) Getting to walk through the old Getzen barn with my grandfather several years ago and hear him describe how it used to be. 2) Getting to walk through the Holton factory shortly after Conn-Selmer shut it down and being able to stand in what was Tony’s office in the original part of the building. So much history. If the walls could talk, excuse the pun.

Another side note, the original Holton factory building was built by old school barn builders (partially funded by the city of Elkhorn) and it shows. Those barn wood builder guys would have a hay day in there with the timbers and hardwood floors.
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Brett Getzen
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2021 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Getzen wrote:
Tony and two of his brothers ... changed their names and left Michigan.


OK, I see Phillip Fredrik Getzen (10/15/1887-1961)) working for Lyon & Healy in Chicago and being personally sued alongside local 100 of the Union for engaging in practices violating anti-trust laws. Its an interesting story from a modern perspective because this predates the National Recovery Act of 1932 which changed collective bargaining from legally amounting to a union conspiring across employers to fix costs and thus prices in a sector of the economy (colluding with the very companies they were striking in the eyes of the anti-trust laws to limit competition in the marketplace - a fair argument), to a protected practice.

Ancestry lists one son in the family: Ralph Edwin Clark (1926-1986)...

Tony Getzen lists L&H as employer in June of 1917, so I am assuming his big brother got him a job. He was also living with Phillip and wife Banda (that's what is says in the census form - fairly legibly. First time I have seen that name).

Brother Robert Matthew Gietzen (9/24/1889 -6/11/1964) appears to have stayed at York, at least through 1916, and was still using the Gietzen name, and living at 414 6th street with his wife Petronella (Nellie) Jane Tanis (1/25/1891 – 1980). He is listed in the directory as an "inspector". I wonder if that was the same as play-tester, or something more metrology related. It appears they had two children, Robert Frederick Gietzen (1914-1990) and Howard Joseph Gietzen (4/28/1917 – 2/12/2006) who married Lois Yvonne Stone (1922-2011) and had 3 children – none of whom appear to have been in any way involved in the music business.

So that's 2 instrument making brothers who left and became Getzens, 1 who stayed in Michigan as a Gietzen. I also see a sister Martha Gietzen (1885-1946), who gave these brothers 10 nieces and nephews with her husband Joseph Peter Rudnick (1878-1948) who was born in the former Duchy of Posen in Prussia, a region that was given to Poland after WWII in trade for the Eastern part of what had been Poland which the Russians never gave back.

Other brothers appear to be Peter Jacob Gietzen (1882-1961), Felix J. Gietzen (b. 1886), and Joseph B. Gietzen (b.1883). Did one of these also become a Getzen and leave Michigan, perhaps never legally changing the name?
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Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com

2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2021 10:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, not all of the questions could be answered, but the essay is done, and I am posting a link here for a while to see if anyone points out any errors, or objections before I add it to the home page at trumpet-history.

My thanks to those who emailed me images from Ancestry and Family search, and who gave me pointers where to start searching online.

https://www.trumpet-history.com/Getzen_Dynasty.pdf
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Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com

2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20
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Getzen
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2021 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ron,

I just now got a chance to read through the essay. There are a few additions/corrections I can give you, but nothing major.

Tony’s birth name was Anton James Gietzen.

Felix Gietzen and Philip Getzen are the same person.

According to family records, Robert Gietzen’s middle initial was S.

Tony did not decide to sell Getzen after Bob struck out on his own. Actually, he was considering selling prior. Bob and Don had put together a plan to purchase the company themselves. However, despite their experience with the company, Tony didn’t think they could run it and rejected their offer. That is what prompted Bob to start his own business. I’m assuming out of disappointment and to prove his father wrong. An unfortunate case of the kids always being viewed as kids. It happens.

Bob was not a musician by any stretch. He was a master technician for sure, but practically tone deaf. If I remember correctly he was asked to leave the school band soon after joining.

Honestly, this is extremely well done and a great read. It’s a little humbling to think that anyone outside of the family would care enough to take the time to do all of this. A dynasty might be a bit of a stretch. I’d say we are all just incredibly lucky to be able to do what we love. I don’t know how it got there, but somehow brass runs through our veins. Hopefully it continues on to generation 5, the first of which starts band this year. She has chosen trumpet and recently informed she wants a 900DLX. We’ll have to wait and see on that.

Oh and regarding the courage of our wives, you don’t know the half of it. I’m actually surprised our mom didn’t warn Elizabeth and Leah off from getting involved in this mess.
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Brett Getzen
President
Getzen Company

Follow Getzen on:
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2021 5:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Getzen wrote:
Ron,

I just now got a chance to read through the essay. There are a few additions/corrections I can give you, but nothing major.

Tony’s birth name was Anton James Gietzen.

Felix Gietzen and Philip Getzen are the same person.

According to family records, Robert Gietzen’s middle initial was S.

Tony did not decide to sell Getzen after Bob struck out on his own. Actually, he was considering selling prior. Bob and Don had put together a plan to purchase the company themselves. However, despite their experience with the company, Tony didn’t think they could run it and rejected their offer. That is what prompted Bob to start his own business. I’m assuming out of disappointment and to prove his father wrong. An unfortunate case of the kids always being viewed as kids. It happens.

Bob was not a musician by any stretch. He was a master technician for sure, but practically tone deaf. If I remember correctly he was asked to leave the school band soon after joining.

Honestly, this is extremely well done and a great read. It’s a little humbling to think that anyone outside of the family would care enough to take the time to do all of this. A dynasty might be a bit of a stretch. I’d say we are all just incredibly lucky to be able to do what we love. I don’t know how it got there, but somehow brass runs through our veins. Hopefully it continues on to generation 5, the first of which starts band this year. She has chosen trumpet and recently informed she wants a 900DLX. We’ll have to wait and see on that.

Oh and regarding the courage of our wives, you don’t know the half of it. I’m actually surprised our mom didn’t warn Elizabeth and Leah off from getting involved in this mess.


Thank you for the kind words and additional information. I have updated the essay accordingly. I will probably link it to the home page at trumpet-history in the next few days.

https://www.trumpet-history.com/Getzen_Dynasty.pdf

I have also added an educational fair use declaration at the bottom including a prohibition of commercial use by other than Getzen. If you would like to grant a "used by permission" for the related content, that would of course be even better.

A 900DLX for a first year student? Talk about nice to dream! I did start out on a compensating Besson baritone, so I guess I'm not in a position to say too much more - other than that an old Getzen 90 Deluxe instead (entertaining how similar the names are!) would have the advantage of playing great no mater how many times it is bashed and straightened. . . .

- speaking of which, did you ever happen across any record of the valve cap thread on the 90s - only thing that's ever stopped me from getting a 90 playable again.
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Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com

2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20
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Getzen
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2021 10:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Of course anything from us is used with permission.

She’s probably going to end up with a first run, prototype 907DLX to start with. Better all around horn and I have one sitting in my office. Dad’s a bit of a push over. What she really wants is one with custom engraving of her own design. She’s going to have to stick with it and prove her commitment before we go that route. And I can’t really talk either. I had a hell of a collection for a middle schooler.

With the exception of Getzen trumpet #1, which I have, I’m 99% certain every Getzen has the same top cap threads. In fact, the Eterna Deluxe caps are exact copies of the caps off of one of my 1960’s Super Deluxes.
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Brett Getzen
President
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Follow Getzen on:
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If you have a question please feel free to email me at brett@getzen.com.
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Nos Mo King
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Joined: 10 Feb 2008
Posts: 438
Location: Cheyenne WY

PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2021 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ron, well done! This thread deserves a bump and kudos to you!


Thanks Mr. Getzen for all your contributions to the TH!!


All the best to all of you,

RC
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Russ Chapman




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