• FAQ  • Search  • Memberlist  • Usergroups   • Register   • Profile  • Log in to check your private messages  • Log in 

new routine for the PETE device



 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Fundamentals
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
chuck in ny
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 23 Sep 2006
Posts: 3597
Location: New York

PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2021 10:10 am    Post subject: new routine for the PETE device Reply with quote

insofar as the large disc end, that part remains the same.
for the compression work on the small end it was always puzzling when to stop squeezing, and how hard or long to do so. i now do the exercise sitting down, head bent, and looking square at the floor. the small end goes in the lips and gets held there a few seconds, and then the head gets raised almost half way, and repetitions of that, in a similar way to doing bicep curls.
after a few weeks of that i was able to go from perpendicular to the floor to straight ahead level. there is no question the lip muscles got much stronger.
this is with the silver plated brass version. the plastic PETE might be superior in some aspects.
you do get to the point of muscle failure so it's prudent to keep the hands cupped under the PETE.
whether this translates to better horn blowing is going to be left to a number of months of observation. in the first place this is only the beginning of an exercise that will slowly increase strength over a long period of time.
with the added intensity of effort i do this 3 days a week with rest days in between. as with all trumpet matters the art of this is knowing when enough is enough and stopping.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Eliot
Veteran Member


Joined: 05 Nov 2018
Posts: 123
Location: Melbourne, Australia

PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2021 12:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a friend who plays trumpet, and has done for years. He swears by the pencil between the chops, which he has used and still uses. Some used to wonder why he wandered around sucking on the end of a short stubby pencil. Took years for me to find out.

Seems any method to develop the embouchure takes time AND dedication.

BTW, I fabricated a similar type of PETE device with a 4" piece of coat hanger plastic and a tap (fawcet) washer to add weight to the end. It may be a bit agricultural but for a few bob (pennies) it does the same job.
_________________
Eliot
Rank amateur, still upright and trying hard.
Yamaha YTR6335RC
B&S 150A Alto-Tenor Horn
Yamaha FZ8n (motorcycle)
Conn 83B (trumpet)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
chuck in ny
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 23 Sep 2006
Posts: 3597
Location: New York

PostPosted: Sun Aug 22, 2021 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i am continuing with this routine with satisfying results. the lip muscles are gaining strength and playing is easier with both endurance and range.
presumably this will take half a year to get into a strong muscular groove. every athletic endeavor has a base of strength first, and then control, whether it's basketball shooting or violin vibrato. we have the same bonehead discussion here regularly, i can play this certain note and range effortlessly. yeah, effortlessly when your chops are massively strong. it's incomplete and misleading information for those who can't do that.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
chuck in ny
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 23 Sep 2006
Posts: 3597
Location: New York

PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2021 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

update on how this is going.
there are two isometric variations with the PETE. one holding the small end in your lips with the device level, and timing the result, and one holding the small end in the lips with the device hanging down, looking at the floor. i have done both. i got to over 10 minutes with the device hanging down, and the time is excessive, and with more exercise to get more excessive, so i gave it up.
i settled on repetitions of starting with the device hanging down and raising to level. it has a good muscular feel and short duration. now it is possible to suicide yourself with any number of trumpet overwork schemes and especially so with this weight training. if i have too much zeal it results in weak practice days. we figure all this stuff out ourselves but it pays to watch the embouchure like a hawk. the guidelines for this is to do repetitions until you begin to approach the beginning stages of muscle burn. to the extent possible stop before even light burn or strain. there are, and there aren't, numbers, and days when you do much less reps than you are capable of and days when you allow yourself to slightly exceed your prior maximum. doing any number of reps like this demonstrates a nicely strengthening embouchure so you can progress at your own biorhythm.
it has been a couple of months and i figured seat of the pants for it to take 6 months for muscular development as who is kidding who things take their sweet time. it has however been enough time to assess efficacy. my lips have gotten much, much stronger. range and endurance are improving. there is no reason i could not make significant gains given time.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
jocar37
Veteran Member


Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 380
Location: Pennsylvania

PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2021 10:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I love the PETE. I actually own two. I keep one in the car and one by my chair in the living room. I use them all the time and they definitely help.
Most of the time I've been doing the isometric exercise with my head up, the small end between my lips and the PETE pointed out perpendicular to my face. It gets a bit boring, but when I'm driving and have the radio on, I can go for quite a long time. Not sure about diminishing returns.
Since it does get boring, I started doing something that I consider a kind of lip "bicep curl," but I don't think it's the same thing you described that way. I just let the PETE hang from my lips, then raise it up to perpendicular, maybe even beyond, let it drop slowly down, then repeat several times. I'm not sure that's any better than the isometric, but that little movement makes it less boring. I think this is the same as the exercise you're describing here.
chuck in ny wrote:
i settled on repetitions of starting with the device hanging down and raising to level.

I'm not clear, however, on how the first exercise you describe does much for the lips. It seems to me that raising your head with the PETE in a static position adds a little neck exercise but doesn't do anything more than just holding it perpendicular to your face. Am I understanding your description correctly? If so, can you give me a better idea what you think this move does that you don't get from the others?
_________________
1945 Martin Committee
1939 Martin Handcraft Committee
1963 Olds Recording
1906 F. Besson flugel
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
chuck in ny
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 23 Sep 2006
Posts: 3597
Location: New York

PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2021 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jocar

apologies i have not checked the forum for awhile.
your bicep curl is exactly what i have been doing. keeping the device out perpendicular is fine. with a pure isometric movement you can put your muscles into a bind at the end, so as a trumpet player terrified of doing damage, breaking the exercise up with a rest gives you time to evaluate your status. i put the metronome on 60 and 1 beat down, 4 beats perpendicular, repeat for 5 reps. i intend to go up one beat every couple of months. the reps should stay the same. i would like it short sweet and effective.
everyone is different and should find their own way. with this exercise just being able to hold the device perpendicular for a few seconds means you have strong lip muscles. my strategy is to work comfortably under my maximum and increase the intensity slowly. in the gym we would go kamikaze and all but muscle shock is counterproductive. doing this work under the maximum keeps my embouchure supple and relaxed and my playing improves.
i could not do what you do in your car. you must have been doing this a long time and have developed muscles. i have to be very careful not to get to or near muscle bind. one of the options when i get to your strength is to increase the weight at the end of the PETE. imo the exercise should be reasonably brief.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
jocar37
Veteran Member


Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 380
Location: Pennsylvania

PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2021 5:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Chuck - Thanks for the reply. I have indeed been doing this for a quite some time. I don't know what the longest I've gone has been, but I can go for several minutes without any significant issues.
Sometimes I feel like the lip is getting a bit engorged, just like any muscles do after some extended lifting. When this happens, I flip the PETE and pull the flat end to stretch my lips out and loosen them back up.
Seems to work well. My embouchure is definitely much stronger when I've been using the PETE. One thing I've noticed is that I can get a much softer pianissimo than I'd ever been able to before.
Doing "curls" has a few possible benefits. First, as noted, after a while, my lips do get engorged and a bit stiff. I feel like dropping the PETE and raising it back up again relaxes the lip muscles enough to allow the blood to circulate ande keep the lips more limber so I can continue the exercise.
Secondly, it's a little boring just doing an isometric, which means I'm losing focus. Which means I'm probably not getting the full benefit of the exercise.
lastly, I believe that it's like any other weight training where range of motion and changes of position attack the muscles differently.
Don't know how much of this is what really happens. But it doesn't matter much to me as long as I see improvement.
_________________
1945 Martin Committee
1939 Martin Handcraft Committee
1963 Olds Recording
1906 F. Besson flugel
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
chuck in ny
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 23 Sep 2006
Posts: 3597
Location: New York

PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2021 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

it's worth noting that the PETE is supposed to be held by the hand at the disc end while the lips compress the thin end. holding the device out unsupported is apparently for those who must express themselves.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
kehaulani
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 23 Mar 2003
Posts: 8964
Location: Hawai`i - Texas

PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2021 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

chuck in ny wrote:
. . holding the device out unsupported is apparently for those who must express themselves.


If one holds the PETE, then the lip tension is, hypothetically, even from all directions (like Farkas' draw string analogy).

Letting it go flopping downward, unsupported, could require one to put undue pressure on the lower lip pressing upward. This would cause an undue upward pressure from the lower lip, making for "The Unbalanced Embouchure". (Hey, just started a new school of playing.)
_________________
"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird

Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Getzen Capri Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
chuck in ny
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 23 Sep 2006
Posts: 3597
Location: New York

PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2021 1:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani

it does not feel that way. it feels as if the device is held by both lips and no undue strain is apparent during the motion. the muscles are worked, and feel worked, during the timed isometric hold in the level position.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
chuck in ny
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 23 Sep 2006
Posts: 3597
Location: New York

PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2021 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

this is proceeding apace with intensity being slowly added. i am at 5 repetitions of 6 seconds apiece.
both range and endurance are slowly increasing.
any exercise routine comes into its own at 6 and 18 months initially and decades ultimately. rapid and easy progress happens in other areas but not with my playing. it is satisfying enough to find ways that are fundamentally sound and follow that out.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
mograph
Regular Member


Joined: 17 Feb 2020
Posts: 88

PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2021 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a PETE and find it useful.

I used it in the car until I read that it's not recommended that we do that.

Why?
Airbags, I suppose.

My elderly mother was in a car crash, and the exploding airbag gave her a nasty bruise (she's okay). I don't want an exploding airbag to propel my PETE through my teeth and into my spine ... and I don't trust myself to drop the thing if things go sideways. It's quite possible that I'll clench my teeth instead.

So ... I don't use it in the car. There's plenty of time to use the thing while sitting in front of the computer, lecturing people about how to use their PETEs.

Carry on ...
_________________
1985 Bach 37
1980 King 601 (it's bulletproof!)
1978 Couesnon flugelhorn
Playing for fun since 1979.
Fmr member 48th Highlanders of Canada Mil Band
Into that jazz devil music
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mike ansberry
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 03 Jun 2003
Posts: 1605
Location: Clarksville, Tn

PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2021 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Be careful about overdoing these exercises. I have a tendency to go overboard on things. After I got used to the exercises I started doing them WAY too long. It took a month before my muscles got back to normal.
_________________
Music is a fire in your belly, fighting to get out. You'd better put a horn in the way before someone gets hurt.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
chuck in ny
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 23 Sep 2006
Posts: 3597
Location: New York

PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2022 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i am at the 6 month point now doing 5 reps of 10 seconds each. range and endurance are steadily albeit slowly improving.
this would be the stage in sports where you get your initial athletic hardness. things are vastly better but nowhere near where i aspire to be. my feeling is that improvement milestones will happen on the pi ratio, 6 months now, 18 months, 5 years.
by actually strengthening the embouchure you get an exact feel of what it is doing for you. it extends endurance. it extends range. it makes playing by extension more comfortable and musical. strength seems to be the central organizing feature to being a player.
there have been thousands of discussions and 'free advice' here- much from professionals who have well developed muscles- that ignore the straight dope of the situation and replace it with tofu. i have never heard anyone say, be stronger and you won't have those problems. there are naturally other issues unrelated to strength to sort out. that said the core is strength.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Bethmike
Veteran Member


Joined: 21 Jan 2020
Posts: 192
Location: NW of ORD

PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2022 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I used it in the car until I read that it's not recommended that we do that.

Why?
Airbags, I suppose.

My elderly mother was in a car crash, and the exploding airbag gave her a nasty bruise (she's okay). I don't want an exploding airbag to propel my PETE through my teeth and into my spine ... and I don't trust myself to drop the thing if things go sideways. It's quite possible that I'll clench my teeth instead.


https://www.pinderplotkin.com/how-fast-do-airbags-deploy-in-a-car-accident/

Once an accident starts, airbag sensors begin calculating the impact level. Generally, airbags only deploy in moderate to severe accidents. So, if the crash is severe enough, the sensors signal the inflators to air-fill the airbags. This airbag inflation occurs in the blink of an eye.

Alternatively, you can calculate the airbag deployment as less than 1/20th of a second. It’s this speed in deployment that results in injuries to passengers sitting close to the airbags. Side airbags can deploy even faster than this. The less space between the protected passenger and the striking object makes this extra speed possible.

Airbags can also deploy in rollover car accidents. Here, side curtain airbags protect you. They can deploy in about 10-20 milliseconds of a rollover crash. Furthermore, they remain inflated for extended periods.

You will not have time to drop it or worry about clenching your teeth.

Do not use your PETE in a car.
_________________
Bach190ML43
Kanstul 1001
Bach NY7
Yamaha 631 Flugel
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
peanuts56
Veteran Member


Joined: 21 Nov 2021
Posts: 220

PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2022 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some years back I took a few lessons from Bob Civiletti and asked him about the pete device. He was dead set against any kind of isometric device. Ironically, he's now selling a device called monster chops.
I'm not trying to throw shade on him but wonder why he's now selling an isometric device.
Bob is a very fine player. He played a few things for me on B Flat and natural trumpet, and he was impressive. I learned a lot from him and Jerry Callet. I never recall Jerry marketing something like this. Just wonder what may have changed his mind.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Fundamentals All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group