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Brassnose Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Mar 2016 Posts: 2047 Location: Germany
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Posted: Mon Jul 26, 2021 10:43 pm Post subject: Corporation vs. modern Bach horns |
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I currently see a lot of Bach Corporation Elkhart Bb and C horns for sale. A lot of the sellers highlight the Corporation aspect. Are these horns so much different/more desirable than modern Bach’s? Reasons (other than mythology)? _________________ 2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance, Frate, Klier |
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Goby Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Jun 2017 Posts: 648
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Posted: Mon Jul 26, 2021 11:10 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, there are quite a few differences. The corporation stamp refers to the line on the bell underneath Vincent Bach’s signature which was featured in the early Elkhart instruments and gradually fazed out as the bell stamps got worn out and needed replacing (37 was the first to wear out and be replaced with a die missing the “corporation line). These early Elkhart horns are very close to the late Mt Vernon, differing only in bell construction (stamped die on Elkharts vs cut and hammered sheet on Mt Vernon). As Bach grew as a company, they introduced cost-cutting measures, especially after the departure of Vincent Bach in the mid-70’s. These cost cutting protocols only changed the horns slightly, but with each successive change, a bit of Bach’s soul was lost. Here is a list of characteristics of early Elkhart Bach Strads:
Side seam bells on Corp horns were more difficult to bend but provided better feedback and resonance
2-piece valve blocks were more labor intensive to produce and yielded better results acoustically
Nickel-silver trim added weight to the horn
Steel bell bead wire
Brass valve guides
Early Elkhart pinky hook in nickel-silver
Nickel-silver valve trim
Bells and leadpipes spun on Mt Vernon mandrels
Vincent Bach was the shop foreman overseeing production. Production happened at a smaller scale while Bach was still around. |
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interfx Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Dec 2001 Posts: 678 Location: Atlanta, GA
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OldSchoolEuph Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2012 Posts: 2440
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Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2021 4:14 am Post subject: |
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Goby wrote: | These early Elkhart horns are very close to the late Mt Vernon, differing only in bell construction (stamped die on Elkharts vs cut and hammered sheet on Mt Vernon). |
Not exactly
- Early Elkharts still involve a lot of hand forming - hydroforming the blanks came about very late. Cutting of the sheet may have changed.
- The last Mt.Vernons, the 180s built there 12/63-12/64, had Mt. Vernon standard .020" bell stock vs the .025" standard at Elkhart.
- The Mt.Vernon 180s still use a brass rim wire.
- The heavier stock, different mandrels, different employees, and different annealing ovens all required significant changes to the working and annealing schedule that determines the resonant character of the bell when Bach moved to the Main Street plant in Elkhart where the Early Elkharts were made. _________________ Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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Brassnose Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Mar 2016 Posts: 2047 Location: Germany
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Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2021 4:56 am Post subject: |
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OK, I gather there are significant manufacturing differences. As these instruments are around 50+ years old, would one prefer an early Elkhart/Corporation horn or one of the new models such as the 190 series? Speaking of intonation, attacks, ease of playing for an amateur player with 40+ years of experience. I know I’ll have to test - just wondering if it would be worth giving a few eBay and Craigslist horns a shot. _________________ 2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance, Frate, Klier |
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OldSchoolEuph Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2012 Posts: 2440
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Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2021 5:34 am Post subject: |
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Brassnose wrote: | OK, I gather there are significant manufacturing differences. As these instruments are around 50+ years old, would one prefer an early Elkhart/Corporation horn or one of the new models such as the 190 series? Speaking of intonation, attacks, ease of playing for an amateur player with 40+ years of experience. I know I’ll have to test - just wondering if it would be worth giving a few eBay and Craigslist horns a shot. |
As they say: "They don't make them like they used to". While that's true, the question is which way does that point? You will find folks who are steadfast in their opinion that there is no substitute for the vintage _________ (Committee, Mt. Vernon Bach, Ambassador - whatever). Similarly, you will find those who find the advancements in modern horn design and manufacturing provide a superior tool for their use. It comes down to how well you personally fit a horn.
Myself, I (obviously) am a big vintage horn person, yet when I need a tool I can rely on in performance, I find there is no substitute for the response, intonation, ease of achieving the tone I want, etc. that comes from taking advantage of the latest tech.
Along those lines, it is my belief that right now, for Bach, horns like the Anniversary model, etc - and really all current Bachs - will one day be seen as the best they ever made. I base this on the optimal blend today of consistency in aspects of manufacturing such as bell making coupled with the continued application of the craftsman's touch where it can create subtle differences from one horn to the next increasing the opportunity for a player to find a "perfect fit". _________________ Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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Brassnose Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Mar 2016 Posts: 2047 Location: Germany
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Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2021 8:47 am Post subject: |
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Yeah, I have never played a vintage horn on a gig (unless you call my 1980 Blessing Scholastic vintage by now ). Honestly, I am leaning towards modern horns for all my playing but of course I am tempted by all the neat stories and the “Wow” factor. I once fancied buying a trumpet made the same year I am born plus one each for the years my parents were born but this is not so easy - plus I didn’t want to buy crap horns, either. _________________ 2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance, Frate, Klier |
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shal Regular Member
Joined: 07 Jan 2006 Posts: 32 Location: France
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Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2021 3:28 am Post subject: |
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Brassnose wrote: | OK, I gather there are significant manufacturing differences. As these instruments are around 50+ years old, would one prefer an early Elkhart/Corporation horn or one of the new models such as the 190 series? Speaking of intonation, attacks, ease of playing for an amateur player with 40+ years of experience. I know I’ll have to test - just wondering if it would be worth giving a few eBay and Craigslist horns a shot. |
190 series are good.
But a lot less of money you can found also good bach in used trumpet.
My very early elkart is very good (after some repairs), as good as a 190 and better than average Strad .
But I paid this trumpet largely less than a half of a 190 (even with repair include).
So early elkart (or mt vernon) is intersting if you can catch them for a good price and not afraid of repair cost.
Warning about valves . Mine has the valves already rebuilt. Avoid trumpet if valves problems. _________________ Bb: Taylor London
Bach 37ml 1965
C: SchilBach (aka Bach 229L with Schilke modification)
Bugle: Kanstul 1525
Piccolo : Stomvi (first model as Maurice)
Mouthpiece : Prana B2S3 or artisan 1C or 1-1/2B or ... |
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improver Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Mar 2004 Posts: 1455
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Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2021 5:43 am Post subject: |
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I was always a vintage horn guy but as they get older there are more mechanical issues and they become harder to play. So I'm becoming a modern horn guy because they play so well and that makes a big difference. Many, if not most 50 year old horns have had some work and when you buy a vintage horn you dont always know what it was. |
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kramergfy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Apr 2004 Posts: 992 Location: Los Angeles, CA
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Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2021 6:41 am Post subject: |
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Which Mt. Vernon are we discussing? The earlier shorter lead pipe or the later one?
As mentioned above, the main difference between the later 180 Mt Vernons and an Early Elkhart is the bell is lighter, has a brass French bead, and might have a 7 o clock bell seam. The third valve stop rod is also reversed.
The Elkhart began production with heavier bells, side seam bells and a round steel wire bell bead.
If you had truly comparable specimens from each era, I’d guess the main differences would be the Mt Vernons have a little more sound feedback, and slightly quicker response. The Elkharts might project better and hold together at louder volumes. That was the impression I had, but that could have been just the horns i had at the time? I prefer the Elkhart 37 personally. _________________ "I'm 73 and I'm still learning." - Maurice Murphy
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OldSchoolEuph Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2012 Posts: 2440
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Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2021 7:33 am Post subject: |
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kramergfy wrote: | Which Mt. Vernon are we discussing? The earlier shorter lead pipe or the later one?
As mentioned above, the main difference between the later 180 Mt Vernons and an Early Elkhart is the bell is lighter, has a brass French bead, and might have a 7 o clock bell seam. The third valve stop rod is also reversed.
The Elkhart began production with heavier bells, side seam bells and a round steel wire bell bead.
If you had truly comparable specimens from each era, I’d guess the main differences would be the Mt Vernons have a little more sound feedback, and slightly quicker response. The Elkharts might project better and hold together at louder volumes. That was the impression I had, but that could have been just the horns i had at the time? I prefer the Elkhart 37 personally. |
There were also early Mt. Vernons built in the late New York wrap. Your analysis of the differences between the Mt. Vernon and Early Elkhart 180s is spot on based on my horns. _________________ Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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