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How are valves made?



 
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Jenny Lee
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Joined: 06 Jun 2021
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2021 4:41 am    Post subject: How are valves made? Reply with quote

Hi All,

Can anyone share any resources to articles, videos or other online content explaining how trumpet valves are made?

I'd like to understand better the processes like lapping and annealing as they relate to valves and valve casings, as well as the differences in construction of stainless steel, Monel, nickel-plated, nickel silver and any other valve types.

So far I've found several resources below, but none seem to cover this topic in much depth:


    This video briefly showing the valve production process at Bach doesn't go very deep into the topic


    This article from Brett Getzen is probably the most detailed and does mention some of the characteristics that made one valve block superior to another, but it assumes the reader is already pretty familiar with the manufacturing processes involved, as it doesn't go into much detail on those.

    Various threads on TH discuss which valves are better, but again, don't go into how they're built.


Thanks for any input or links people can offer up on this topic. I've been digging online for a while and seem to keep coming up short. But I think I must not be the only one who's interested in this topic.
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2021 5:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

First you have to identify what makes one set of valves "better" than another. There are several factors:
- Smooth operation
- Tightness of seal (which effects both tone and intonation, as well as "valve articulation")
- Durability of the piston surface
- Alignment of the ports
- Durability of the casings - usually a function of the smoothness of the piston surface, the precision of the fit, and the quality of the casing brass
- Precision of the initial fit - this is process-dependent as allowing the valves to "wear in" in the hands of the customer opens the door to their bad habits manifesting in improper seating of the valves, but hand-lapping at the factory to essentially break-in the valves in advance, while very effective at assuring good fit, is very costly and requires specialized skilled labor
- Valve guide fit and stability
- Durability of the guide slot - how fast it wears determines how soon there is rotational slop misaligning the ports - and also contributes to a reduction in smoothness.
- And one that is often forgotten: how did the manufacturer do at striking a balance between securely seating valve caps and thread wear over time?

Then there are the issues of interacting with a player's tastes:
- How long a valve stroke does the player prefer?
- How fast a response does the player prefer vs how hard they must push to depress the valve (spring strength)
- How crisp a valve articulation does the player prefer?
- Does the player prefer the added inertia of brass guides (impacting slightly both tone and response) even though they typically click?
- Does the player prefer the added stability and core tone strengthening of higher mass casings, or the lighter response and greater flexibility of less mass in the core of the horn?

Finally, we get down to long term value:
- How easily does the construction of the piston and casing lend itself to being rebuilt after it eventually wears?
- How available are spare parts?
- How resilient to disassembly and reassembly for rotational precision alignment is the piston?
- If using brass guides, how fast does the slot wear wide enough to be an issue?
- If using plastic guides, are replacements readily available now and into the distant future?

There is no "right answer" - its a balance and a fit to the desires of the customer that determines the "best" valves. And that will be different from person to person.

After defining all of that, one can then get into the details of forming ports and knuckles, casting and machining piston sleeves, or extruding them and plating them, silver-soldering the ports and knuckles into the pistons and casings, the differences between a cage jig (Bach) and a finger jig (common in Asia) for assembly of the valve block (and the effects the jig has on how heat dispersion impacts the assembly), differing honing and turning methods, the ideal tolerance for initial gapping (depends a lot on material and final fit process), and many other factors. All in all, this is a topic for a few hundred page book, not a blog post.



The thing is: all of these articles would be so much more valuable if your site actually reviewed some quality trumpets. Right now seeing just an overly optimistic review of an unrepairable low-cost starter horn and nothing else makes this level of detail seem rather irrelevant.
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Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com

2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20
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Jenny Lee
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2021 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OldSchoolEuph wrote:
...All in all, this is a topic for a few hundred page book, not a blog post.


Thanks for offering up these details and the main points to consider.

I guess I'm just looking for a cursory understanding on the manufacturing processes involved for the purposes of being able to compare valves.

For example, brazing/annealing seems to become relevant when we talk about Monel, as I've heard this process can soften Monel valves and make them more porous. Details like these seem important to understand if we want to explain the potential advantages of one material over another.

OldSchoolEuph wrote:
The thing is: all of these articles would be so much more valuable if your site actually reviewed some quality trumpets. Right now seeing just an overly optimistic review of an unrepairable low-cost starter horn and nothing else makes this level of detail seem rather irrelevant.


Yes, the review you're referring to about the TR-330 still needs some work.

Part of my aim in better understanding valves and other critical components is to be able explain and compare different features of the instrument. In this way, I hope to have a stronger foundation of knowledge to draw from when reviewing the instrument.
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HaveTrumpetWillTravel
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2021 10:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I watched this video by Harrelson recently on valves:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KstWExMrRGQ&ab_channel=HarrelsonTrumpets

He offers his own (not mainstream) take on different valve blocks and the use of materials. He offers his opinion on MAW, Getzen, Bach, Adams, etc. He claims the tightest clearances are Yamaha, Carol, and Jupiter. Lots of axes to grind, but it was interesting to me.
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Jenny Lee
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 6:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HaveTrumpetWillTravel wrote:
I watched this video by Harrelson recently on valves:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KstWExMrRGQ&ab_channel=HarrelsonTrumpets

He offers his own (not mainstream) take on different valve blocks and the use of materials. He offers his opinion on MAW, Getzen, Bach, Adams, etc. He claims the tightest clearances are Yamaha, Carol, and Jupiter. Lots of axes to grind, but it was interesting to me.


Yesss! This was a really interesting watch--thanks for sharing!

Loved that he spoke about tolerances and the different materials--though he didn't have much to say about stainless steel and its advantages.

He definitely had some opinions that would clash with what most users here on TH have said about Getzen and nickel plated valves more broadly. I suppose these points are "not mainstream" as you said and should be taken as personal opinions only. And yes, he did fall into some unrelated tangential trains of thought. But I found it helpful and interesting as well.
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 6:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nickel vs Monel vs Stainless is not significant. How valves perform and last is a function of how well they are made (porting design, metal forming, assembly methods, tolerances, fitting methods/process, and long-term maintainability provisions), not what they are made of - at least from among that set of three proven alternatives.
_________________
Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com

2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 6:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jenny Lee wrote:
... Part of my aim in better understanding valves and other critical components is to be able explain and compare different features of the instrument. In this way, I hope to have a stronger foundation of knowledge to draw from when reviewing the instrument.

--------------------------
Understanding the manufacturing process, and the property of different metals is really not very important - because the final function of the valves depends much more on how well the manufacturing is done. All of the metals that are typically used can make good valves.

The typical advertising literature and claims by makers should not be given much weight - unless there are specific 'numbers' (such as valve clearance) that YOU can check with a set of precision machinist measuring tools.
Some tools that would be needed are: micrometer, dial caliper, depth gage, bore gage - and the SKILL how to use them.

Without specialized tools, you can do basic testing of valve action (maybe trying several oils), valve seal, and slide movement. You can also do basic visual and finger-tip testing for roughness, scratches, etc.
Trouble is that you would only be testing a few instruments, and they might not be representative of what a customer would receive. So your evaluation would basically be:
1) everything looked and operated correctly.
2) these problems were found.
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
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Jenny Lee
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 7:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OldSchoolEuph wrote:
Nickel vs Monel vs Stainless is not significant. How valves perform and last is a function of how well they are made (porting design, metal forming, assembly methods, tolerances, fitting methods/process, and long-term maintainability provisions), not what they are made of - at least from among that set of three proven alternatives.


Yes, I understand the quality of workmanship is far more relevant in determining valve quality than what material of the three common ones listed is chosen. I've read comments from many users here that both nickel and Monel, specifically, are great for for valves--the question to ask is not which material is superior?, but instead, which manufacturers do quality work?

That said, I've seen several threads where a user has asked questions like which is better, Monel or nickel valves? So I feel I need a clear understanding of the differences between those materials.

For example, some manufacturers (e.g. Edwards) argue that Monel becomes porous during the brazing process and advocate for nickel as a better alternative to Monel. Is that a mischaracterization of Monel?

And curiously, I rarely see discussions about stainless steel here, despite it apparently being among the top 3 most common materials for valve blocks.
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 8:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jenny Lee wrote:
For example, some manufacturers (e.g. Edwards) argue that Monel becomes porous during the brazing process and advocate for nickel as a better alternative to Monel. Is that a mischaracterization of Monel?


That can happen with monel if the brazing overheats the adjacent material. It will show up as dark staining around the ports where the overheating happened as the pores will scavenge brass from the casing wall. Problems with cooling monel alloys initially can also lead to micro porosity issues anywhere in the piston surface after machining - as Jupiter had issues with a while back.

However, its a matter of properly handling the materials with well designed and carried out processes. It is no different than the challenges in assuring an even layer of contaminant-free nickel gets applied. Process is key.
_________________
Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com

2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20
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Halflip
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 8:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jenny Lee wrote:
That said, I've seen several threads where a user has asked questions like which is better, Monel or nickel valves? So I feel I need a clear understanding of the differences between those materials.


You have alluded to the fact that you are doing some kind of research. If it is for a dissertation or thesis (or even for a book or website), I would be careful about deciding what direction your research should take based on comments or questions from random posters on a more-or-less open forum. Also, are you ultimately relying on sources that you can formally cite as authoritative in a footnote or appendix? I would.


Jenny Lee wrote:
And curiously, I rarely see discussions about stainless steel here, despite it apparently being among the top 3 most common materials for valve blocks.


I just did a search for "Stainless Steel" (all terms) in the "Equipment" category within the "Horns" forum. I got 516 'hits'. I checked some of the threads, and most of the ones with some useful information were discussing valves. (Not too many people think there would be any positive playing characteristics in a stainless steel bell or leadpipe. )
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spitvalve
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My Getzens have the nickel valves and they are awesome. My other horns have Monel valves, and while they work just fine I have to oil them more often.
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Bryan Fields
----------------
1991 Bach LR180 ML 37S
1999 Getzen Eterna 700S
1979 Getzen Eterna 895S Flugelhorn
1969 Getzen Capri cornet
Eastlake Benge 4PSP piccolo trumpet
Warburton and Stomvi Flex mouthpieces
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Jenny Lee
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OldSchoolEuph wrote:
Jenny Lee wrote:
For example, some manufacturers (e.g. Edwards) argue that Monel becomes porous during the brazing process and advocate for nickel as a better alternative to Monel. Is that a mischaracterization of Monel?


That can happen with monel if the brazing overheats the adjacent material. It will show up as dark staining around the ports where the overheating happened as the pores will scavenge brass from the casing wall. Problems with cooling monel alloys initially can also lead to micro porosity issues anywhere in the piston surface after machining - as Jupiter had issues with a while back.

However, its a matter of properly handling the materials with well designed and carried out processes. It is no different than the challenges in assuring an even layer of contaminant-free nickel gets applied. Process is key.


Thanks you, Ron, for enlightening me once again.
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Jenny Lee
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JayKosta wrote:
Understanding the manufacturing process, and the property of different metals is really not very important - because the final function of the valves depends much more on how well the manufacturing is done. All of the metals that are typically used can make good valves.


I think at least having a basic understanding of some of the critical aspects of manufacturing valves is somewhat important. For example, I had no idea what "lapping" meant in the context of valves until recently, which is relevant when discussing piston tolerances and plating.

But you're right in that having a detailed understanding of everything that goes into making every type of piston and casing would be unnecessary.

JayKosta wrote:
The typical advertising literature and claims by makers should not be given much weight - unless there are specific 'numbers' (such as valve clearance) that YOU can check with a set of precision machinist measuring tools.
Some tools that would be needed are: micrometer, dial caliper, depth gage, bore gage - and the SKILL how to use them.

Without specialized tools, you can do basic testing of valve action (maybe trying several oils), valve seal, and slide movement. You can also do basic visual and finger-tip testing for roughness, scratches, etc.
Trouble is that you would only be testing a few instruments, and they might not be representative of what a customer would receive. So your evaluation would basically be:
1) everything looked and operated correctly.
2) these problems were found.


Too true. And I've seen several (some very popular) trumpet review websites that do a terrible and dishonest job of reviewing instruments. As another TH user pointed out before, even Rolling Stone has started endorsing "budget" trumpets for the general public.

Along these lines, I appreciate your earlier feedback, in particular, regarding the issue of sticky valves with trumpets, as this convinced me of the need to dig more deeply into the prevalence, causes and outcomes of this defect. I was able to do this in (I hope) a transparent way and will carry this level of analysis over to any future reviews we write. But I digress... that review still needs some revision.
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Jenny Lee
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Halflip wrote:
You have alluded to the fact that you are doing some kind of research. If it is for a dissertation or thesis (or even for a book or website), I would be careful about deciding what direction your research should take based on comments or questions from random posters on a more-or-less open forum. Also, are you ultimately relying on sources that you can formally cite as authoritative in a footnote or appendix? I would.


Yes, much of my research is meant to help with writing educational content about trumpets for a blog. We're careful to quote specific individuals and include links to specific sources that have informed our research. And if we're citing informal discussions like those on TH, we'll typically clarify that information is coming from the opinions of some trumpet players and shouldn't be taken as definitive fact.


Halflip wrote:
I just did a search for "Stainless Steel" (all terms) in the "Equipment" category within the "Horns" forum. I got 516 'hits'. I checked some of the threads, and most of the ones with some useful information were discussing valves. (Not too many people think there would be any positive playing characteristics in a stainless steel bell or leadpipe. )


Ah, I see. I'll be more thorough in my search process going forward. I was mostly Googling broader questions like "trumpet valve comparison" that would lead me to threads on TH discussing one brand over another or debating the pros/cons of Monel vs. nickel valves. In such cases, stainless steel rarely came up.

But I can see now that TH has plenty of other threads on this specific material. Thanks.
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2021 4:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For giving advice about choosing trumpet (or anything else ...) -
1) Are there reliable reviews or reports of people who are completely satisfied with the item? Does that appear to be typical or rare?
2) People reporting problems or dissatisfaction? Typical or rare?
3) Is there a usable process to resolve a problem or dissatisfaction? Return for refund, repair, replace, etc.
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
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Getzen
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2021 11:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HaveTrumpetWillTravel wrote:
I watched this video by Harrelson recently on valves:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KstWExMrRGQ&ab_channel=HarrelsonTrumpets

He offers his own (not mainstream) take on different valve blocks and the use of materials. He offers his opinion on MAW, Getzen, Bach, Adams, etc. He claims the tightest clearances are Yamaha, Carol, and Jupiter. Lots of axes to grind, but it was interesting to me.


Just about all I can say is this is a very entertaining video.
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