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Satchel Veteran Member
Joined: 12 Apr 2021 Posts: 115
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Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 1:15 pm Post subject: Is this a fake Committee? |
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Dea all,
Not knowing if there are such things as counterfeit Martin Committee trumpets, I do know that counterfeiters are interested in making copies of almost anything collectible that has value.
This is why, when I see a reasonably priced committee in apparently pristine state (compared to trumpets of the same era), I am a little suspicious. The color seems rather nickel or silver plated. Year is supposed to be 1949.
What do you think? Does anything raise a flag?
Last edited by Satchel on Wed Jul 28, 2021 4:02 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3306 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 1:33 pm Post subject: |
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Are you able to inspect the horn?
The way the 3rd valve finger ring is installed makes me think the person didn't know much about trumpets.
The stamping of U S A has the S looking poor. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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F.E. Olds Nut Veteran Member
Joined: 15 Mar 2010 Posts: 343 Location: Detroit
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Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 1:48 pm Post subject: |
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That is almost certainly genuine, but I highly doubt that is the original finish. _________________ Del Quadro "The Mother" |
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LittleRusty Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12664 Location: Gardena, Ca
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Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 1:52 pm Post subject: |
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F.E. Olds Nut wrote: | That is almost certainly genuine, but I highly doubt that is the original finish. |
Did the OP edit their message and delete a link? |
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F.E. Olds Nut Veteran Member
Joined: 15 Mar 2010 Posts: 343 Location: Detroit
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Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 1:55 pm Post subject: |
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LittleRusty wrote: | F.E. Olds Nut wrote: | That is almost certainly genuine, but I highly doubt that is the original finish. |
Did the OP edit their message and delete a link? |
All I saw were the linked photos. I think this horn is listed on eBay _________________ Del Quadro "The Mother" |
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LittleRusty Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12664 Location: Gardena, Ca
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Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 1:59 pm Post subject: |
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F.E. Olds Nut wrote: | LittleRusty wrote: | F.E. Olds Nut wrote: | That is almost certainly genuine, but I highly doubt that is the original finish. |
Did the OP edit their message and delete a link? |
All I saw were the linked photos. I think this horn is listed on eBay |
What linked photos? Am I having a senior moment?
Edit: I tried quoting the OP and see there are photo links. But they just show up as blank/unused space on my iPad. Odd.
Edit2: The photos show up fine on my PC.
Edit3: The issue appears to be with the mozilla browser on my iPad. Safari works fine.
Last edited by LittleRusty on Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:21 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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JetJaguar Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Nov 2006 Posts: 1518 Location: Vancouver, BC
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Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:12 pm Post subject: |
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Could it be the Larry Ramirez Committee? Which would be in the 1990's or thereabout.
Edit: Josh Landress, an authority on the subject, identified the horn in the post immediately below. _________________ 1938 Martin Handcraft Imperial #2 bore, 38 bell
Bach 7C mouthpiece
I'm looking for a Connstellation 5C-N or 5B-N mouthpiece
www.jazzscales.org
The Coady Strengthening Exercises: http://coady.coolwarm.com
Last edited by JetJaguar on Wed Jul 28, 2021 5:39 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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J. Landress Brass Veteran Member
Joined: 29 May 2006 Posts: 425 Location: New York City
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Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:25 pm Post subject: |
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Looks legit to me. Possibly replated at one point, but 100% an older 1946-60's Martin Committee. _________________ Josh Landress
J. Landress Brass, LLC.
38 West 32nd Street, STE 908, NY, NY 10001
646-922-7126
www.jlandressbrass.com |
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Satchel Veteran Member
Joined: 12 Apr 2021 Posts: 115
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Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 3:28 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for your answers. Here's the bracing
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shofarguy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Sep 2007 Posts: 7012 Location: AZ
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Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 4:48 pm Post subject: |
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Satchel,
Could you post a picture of the bottom of the valves showing the port pattern?
Thank you! _________________ Brian A. Douglas
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper
There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds. |
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Halflip Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Jan 2003 Posts: 1925 Location: WI
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Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 5:43 pm Post subject: Re: Is this a fake Committee? |
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Satchel wrote: | This is why, when I see a reasonably priced committee in apparently pristine state (compared to trumpets of the same era), I am a little suspicious. |
What price is the seller asking? What is the venue? (Estate sale? Craig's List? eBay? Goodwill? Other?)
As others have observed, the horn appears to have been refinished, which, along with the generic aftermarket case, suggests to me that the last playing owner acquired an authentic horn used and had it restored. It looks legit to me (I own a medium bore Committee from around 1953, and I had mine restored by Charlie Melk). If you can see the serial number, you can look it up on one of the published lists and verify that it aligns with the claimed year of manufacture.
Regarding the reasonable price, sometimes (although this is becoming very rare) the responsibility for liquidating assets (as in an estate sale, for example) is placed in the hands of a relative who has no knowledge of brass instruments or how to research and appraise them. The result is an unexpectedly low price, and possibly a very lucky buyer. |
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HERMOKIWI Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2008 Posts: 2581
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Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 7:43 pm Post subject: |
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Looks genuine to me and it's unusual, too, because the bell engraving goes back past the first valve. _________________ HERMOKIWI |
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Satchel Veteran Member
Joined: 12 Apr 2021 Posts: 115
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Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 11:07 pm Post subject: |
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It was on eBay. It seems the seller has moved the listing. |
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Halflip Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Jan 2003 Posts: 1925 Location: WI
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Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2021 12:34 am Post subject: |
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I found the listing on eBay under "completed items". It said that the asking price was $4200, but that someone's "best offer" was accepted.
$4200 doesn't sound "reasonably priced" to me. Was that the price you saw? If not, perhaps the seller 'wised up' and quickly adjusted the price before a bid or offer was entered. Or maybe the listing was originally an auction with a low starting bid that was below the reserve. |
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Satchel Veteran Member
Joined: 12 Apr 2021 Posts: 115
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Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2021 8:09 am Post subject: |
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What would be a normal price ? |
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Goby Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Jun 2017 Posts: 652
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Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2021 8:28 am Post subject: |
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for a nice 50's committee medium bore, probably 1800-2400. Mint examples (original case, paperwork, provenance, etc.) would be on the higher end of that spectrum. You can probably find a project horn for 1500, but the cost of repair work often gets more expensive than buying a nice horn to begin with. Large bore prices are all over the place, from $3000 to $5000, maybe more for a really nice one. |
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Halflip Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Jan 2003 Posts: 1925 Location: WI
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Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2021 9:13 am Post subject: |
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Satchel wrote: | What would be a normal price ? |
Your original post said "reasonably priced", which I inferred to mean a 'bargain' (from a buyer's perspective). $4200 is not a bargain. It's really near the top end of the market (from what I've seen on eBay and elsewhere) for a mint original horn from the best period for Martins of that vintage (some people say ones from the late 40's are the best, and the large bore versions seem to draw higher prices as well). I've seen one or two large bore Handcraft Committees (an earlier design without the trombone water keys) get advertised at over $5000 (and maybe someone who thinks it will make them sound like Chris Botti would pay that much).
When I take the average of prices being asked for late 40's to early 60's Committee trumpets currently for sale on eBay, I get (rounded to the nearest dollar) $2712. To me, a "normal" price would be $1800 to $3200 (that's not breaking things down to account for bore size, standard vs. deluxe models, type of finish, etc.). One thing that surprised me is that the later "Leblanc-era" Committees (the Larry Ramirez design) are being offered at similar or higher prices! (I get an average of $3471, although one was admittedly gold-plated with a corresponding premium price.) I've got one of these; maybe I should 'cash it in'!
Please note that I don't claim to be an expert on Committees, and I'm sure others on this forum who better deserve that title will chime in and perhaps debunk things I've said here (which is good -- we'll get more viewpoints regarding the value of these horns). |
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Satchel Veteran Member
Joined: 12 Apr 2021 Posts: 115
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Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2021 10:47 am Post subject: |
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Ok. It’s removed anyways. I’d rather purchase from a professional shop then. Do you know any reputable shop selling one? |
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Halflip Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Jan 2003 Posts: 1925 Location: WI
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Wondra Heavyweight Member
Joined: 04 Mar 2007 Posts: 537
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Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2021 11:21 am Post subject: |
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+1 on J Landress Brass. Besides being Committee experts, they host an active market for them and have many pass through their store. _________________ Dave Wondra
Don't make me get the flying monkeys... |
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