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Is this a fake Committee?


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Satchel
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 1:15 pm    Post subject: Is this a fake Committee? Reply with quote

Dea all,

Not knowing if there are such things as counterfeit Martin Committee trumpets, I do know that counterfeiters are interested in making copies of almost anything collectible that has value.

This is why, when I see a reasonably priced committee in apparently pristine state (compared to trumpets of the same era), I am a little suspicious. The color seems rather nickel or silver plated. Year is supposed to be 1949.

What do you think? Does anything raise a flag?







Last edited by Satchel on Wed Jul 28, 2021 4:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are you able to inspect the horn?
The way the 3rd valve finger ring is installed makes me think the person didn't know much about trumpets.

The stamping of U S A has the S looking poor.
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F.E. Olds Nut
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That is almost certainly genuine, but I highly doubt that is the original finish.
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 1:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

F.E. Olds Nut wrote:
That is almost certainly genuine, but I highly doubt that is the original finish.

Did the OP edit their message and delete a link?
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F.E. Olds Nut
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LittleRusty wrote:
F.E. Olds Nut wrote:
That is almost certainly genuine, but I highly doubt that is the original finish.

Did the OP edit their message and delete a link?


All I saw were the linked photos. I think this horn is listed on eBay
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

F.E. Olds Nut wrote:
LittleRusty wrote:
F.E. Olds Nut wrote:
That is almost certainly genuine, but I highly doubt that is the original finish.

Did the OP edit their message and delete a link?


All I saw were the linked photos. I think this horn is listed on eBay

What linked photos? Am I having a senior moment?

Edit: I tried quoting the OP and see there are photo links. But they just show up as blank/unused space on my iPad. Odd.

Edit2: The photos show up fine on my PC.

Edit3: The issue appears to be with the mozilla browser on my iPad. Safari works fine.


Last edited by LittleRusty on Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:21 pm; edited 1 time in total
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JetJaguar
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Could it be the Larry Ramirez Committee? Which would be in the 1990's or thereabout.

Edit: Josh Landress, an authority on the subject, identified the horn in the post immediately below.
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J. Landress Brass
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looks legit to me. Possibly replated at one point, but 100% an older 1946-60's Martin Committee.
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Satchel
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for your answers. Here's the bracing

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shofarguy
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Satchel,

Could you post a picture of the bottom of the valves showing the port pattern?

Thank you!
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Halflip
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 5:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Is this a fake Committee? Reply with quote

Satchel wrote:
This is why, when I see a reasonably priced committee in apparently pristine state (compared to trumpets of the same era), I am a little suspicious.


What price is the seller asking? What is the venue? (Estate sale? Craig's List? eBay? Goodwill? Other?)

As others have observed, the horn appears to have been refinished, which, along with the generic aftermarket case, suggests to me that the last playing owner acquired an authentic horn used and had it restored. It looks legit to me (I own a medium bore Committee from around 1953, and I had mine restored by Charlie Melk). If you can see the serial number, you can look it up on one of the published lists and verify that it aligns with the claimed year of manufacture.

Regarding the reasonable price, sometimes (although this is becoming very rare) the responsibility for liquidating assets (as in an estate sale, for example) is placed in the hands of a relative who has no knowledge of brass instruments or how to research and appraise them. The result is an unexpectedly low price, and possibly a very lucky buyer.
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HERMOKIWI
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looks genuine to me and it's unusual, too, because the bell engraving goes back past the first valve.
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Satchel
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 11:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It was on eBay. It seems the seller has moved the listing.
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Halflip
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2021 12:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I found the listing on eBay under "completed items". It said that the asking price was $4200, but that someone's "best offer" was accepted.

$4200 doesn't sound "reasonably priced" to me. Was that the price you saw? If not, perhaps the seller 'wised up' and quickly adjusted the price before a bid or offer was entered. Or maybe the listing was originally an auction with a low starting bid that was below the reserve.
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Satchel
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2021 8:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What would be a normal price ?
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Goby
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2021 8:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

for a nice 50's committee medium bore, probably 1800-2400. Mint examples (original case, paperwork, provenance, etc.) would be on the higher end of that spectrum. You can probably find a project horn for 1500, but the cost of repair work often gets more expensive than buying a nice horn to begin with. Large bore prices are all over the place, from $3000 to $5000, maybe more for a really nice one.
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Halflip
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2021 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Satchel wrote:
What would be a normal price ?


Your original post said "reasonably priced", which I inferred to mean a 'bargain' (from a buyer's perspective). $4200 is not a bargain. It's really near the top end of the market (from what I've seen on eBay and elsewhere) for a mint original horn from the best period for Martins of that vintage (some people say ones from the late 40's are the best, and the large bore versions seem to draw higher prices as well). I've seen one or two large bore Handcraft Committees (an earlier design without the trombone water keys) get advertised at over $5000 (and maybe someone who thinks it will make them sound like Chris Botti would pay that much).

When I take the average of prices being asked for late 40's to early 60's Committee trumpets currently for sale on eBay, I get (rounded to the nearest dollar) $2712. To me, a "normal" price would be $1800 to $3200 (that's not breaking things down to account for bore size, standard vs. deluxe models, type of finish, etc.). One thing that surprised me is that the later "Leblanc-era" Committees (the Larry Ramirez design) are being offered at similar or higher prices! (I get an average of $3471, although one was admittedly gold-plated with a corresponding premium price.) I've got one of these; maybe I should 'cash it in'!

Please note that I don't claim to be an expert on Committees, and I'm sure others on this forum who better deserve that title will chime in and perhaps debunk things I've said here (which is good -- we'll get more viewpoints regarding the value of these horns).
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Satchel
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2021 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok. It’s removed anyways. I’d rather purchase from a professional shop then. Do you know any reputable shop selling one?
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Halflip
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2021 11:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So you are actually in the market!

Josh Landress seems to have several in stock. Some have special provenance and cost a ton, but he has a couple of medium bores that look nice. I particularly like the 1954 he has for $3200 (it's the same age as me!):

https://www.jlandressbrass.com/shop/Trumpets/Used-Trumpets/Bb-Trumpets/p/1954-Martin-Committee-Deluxe---2-Bore---Used-x55793929.htm

I'm not clear on whether you are looking for a medium bore or a large. You will want to look at all the Martins he is offering.
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Wondra
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2021 11:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

+1 on J Landress Brass. Besides being Committee experts, they host an active market for them and have many pass through their store.
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