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Bach Strad or Yamaha Shew for a newbie is a sacrilege???


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arker
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2021 5:09 pm    Post subject: Bach Strad or Yamaha Shew for a newbie is a sacrilege??? Reply with quote

Hello!

My first post here so you know...
I am 52, playing self tough (Clarke) for 10 months now...12 major scales by heart, chromatic, blues scale, some ballads, some riffs by ear... ok, I played harmonica for 10 years 20 years ago, I've already known how to read music sheets, divorced, pandemic, and between a girlfriend or a trumpet I chose the trumpet). It's like a hobby for me...

I have a TR300 Brach (I know!), bought for $100 on craigslist...and I think I deserve an upgrade.

I am thinking Yamaha Bobby Shew or a Bach Strad 37 or 43.
I tend to go with the Shew, but I wonder if that "progressive" lead pipe thing or even the reverse lead pipe may mess up my early learnings (even if I like how the Shew feels to play)

Putting money aside, Is there any assertive technical recommendation?
Should I go for an intermediate one?

Thank you!
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Goby
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2021 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's best to jump straight to professional model horns and mouthpieces. A lot of kids aren't responsible or dedicated enough to have a nice pro horn while in middle school, thus the student instrument market. There is also a high risk of having your horn damaged in school, and a dinged up Bundy is a lot easier for parents to stomach than a dinged up Bach Strad. Since you seem to be dedicated to the instrument, and will be playing in a safe environment for the horn, I see no reason not to get a nice instrument.


The Yamaha Bobby Shew and Bach Stradivarius are both extremely popular trumpets among professionals, and both would be great choices. The only thing that could mess up your development would be playing a leaky or otherwise inferior model TR300. A bad horn can ingrain bad habits by making you compensate for the poor quality of the instrument. Having a professional horn can actually accelerate your development as a player by preventing you from developing these habits.


The breakdown between 37,43, and Shew:
The 37 is the most popular pro trumpet ever, and is sort of the baseline on which all other horns are compared. The sound of a 37 is hearty and rich, with a nice "core" in the sound. The 43 is similar in timbre to a 37, but with a little more sparkle. Vincent Bach preferred the 43 to the 37. The Shew is lighter in weight than either Bach, and is more suited towards jazz and commercial music than classical, although there are plenty of classical players who own and use one. If you're able to try them all out, pick the one that sounds and feels the best to play. What ever is comfortable for you will work best. Some horns get along better with different mouthpieces, so don't be afraid to pick up a new mouthpiece or two to experiment with before or after making your purchase. If you're buying sight unseen, Yamaha is known for excellent quality control and consistency.


My recommendation is to take a few lessons (online or in-person) to help with your development as a trumpet player and musician. There is no substitute for good practice, and a teacher will help get you started in the right direction.


Best of luck on your musical journey.
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zaferis
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2021 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I also would NOT recommend a "step-up" or "intermediate" trumpet.. hardly worth the extra money for young folks.. definitely not for an adult. Outside of cosmetics would be not improvement from what you have in-hand.

Go for the pro horn (after or along with lessons). The instruments you mentioned are good to look at as well as a bunch of others.

My personal recommendation is a Bach 19037 "Anniversary" Model - a new build of the instrument that has been the gold standard for a very long time. Hard to go wrong with this.
But so many others to consider: Schilke, Getzen, Shires, Powell, Adams, Thanes, etc., etc.


good luck
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So you have played on a Shew, and the Bach's should be easy enough to get a chance to try as they are about as common as any inventory in a store today.

It's your money, and your future experience: go with what feels right for you.
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mikepodorski
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm a returning player, just over a year back playing. I say buy the best trumpet you can afford. Play them (and others) first, and play the one you are actually buying. There can be pretty big differences in the same model.
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arker
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Goby wrote:
It's best to jump straight to professional model horns and mouthpieces. A lot of kids aren't responsible or dedicated enough to have a nice pro horn while in middle school, thus the student instrument market. There is also a high risk of having your horn damaged in school, and a dinged up Bundy is a lot easier for parents to stomach than a dinged up Bach Strad. Since you seem to be dedicated to the instrument, and will be playing in a safe environment for the horn, I see no reason not to get a nice instrument.


The Yamaha Bobby Shew and Bach Stradivarius are both extremely popular trumpets among professionals, and both would be great choices. The only thing that could mess up your development would be playing a leaky or otherwise inferior model TR300. A bad horn can ingrain bad habits by making you compensate for the poor quality of the instrument. Having a professional horn can actually accelerate your development as a player by preventing you from developing these habits.


The breakdown between 37,43, and Shew:
The 37 is the most popular pro trumpet ever, and is sort of the baseline on which all other horns are compared. The sound of a 37 is hearty and rich, with a nice "core" in the sound. The 43 is similar in timbre to a 37, but with a little more sparkle. Vincent Bach preferred the 43 to the 37. The Shew is lighter in weight than either Bach, and is more suited towards jazz and commercial music than classical, although there are plenty of classical players who own and use one. If you're able to try them all out, pick the one that sounds and feels the best to play. What ever is comfortable for you will work best. Some horns get along better with different mouthpieces, so don't be afraid to pick up a new mouthpiece or two to experiment with before or after making your purchase. If you're buying sight unseen, Yamaha is known for excellent quality control and consistency.


My recommendation is to take a few lessons (online or in-person) to help with your development as a trumpet player and musician. There is no substitute for good practice, and a teacher will help get you started in the right direction.


Best of luck on your musical journey.



Goby!!
Thank you, my leader!

Makes total sense...focus on what meters instead of fighting the horn.

Thank you so much for the explanation of the models... I've watched so many videos! so difficult to separate the wheat from the chaff...and you did it!.

I have 20 mouthpieces already.... can't find anything better for me than the bach 5b though...have all the 5 family!

I do plan to have classes... I bet a couple of good classes with a good teacher and the proper study in between them may save months of self-taught. I've been trying to overcome an important obstacle every day and It's been working so far! Having fun...

Many thanks!
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arker
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

zaferis wrote:
I also would NOT recommend a "step-up" or "intermediate" trumpet.. hardly worth the extra money for young folks.. definitely not for an adult. Outside of cosmetics would be not improvement from what you have in-hand.

Go for the pro horn (after or along with lessons). The instruments you mentioned are good to look at as well as a bunch of others.

My personal recommendation is a Bach 19037 "Anniversary" Model - a new build of the instrument that has been the gold standard for a very long time. Hard to go wrong with this.
But so many others to consider: Schilke, Getzen, Shires, Powell, Adams, Thanes, etc., etc.


good luck


Thank you!

Being an online buying I am gonna go for the conservative choice. 190s37 was my 4th choice...after your comment maybe 3rd or second...I've seen all videos about it and seems they're trying to bring back not only the mechanicals but the quality consistency as well with these 190's.
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arker
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mikepodorski wrote:
I'm a returning player, just over a year back playing. I say buy the best trumpet you can afford. Play them (and others) first, and play the one you are actually buying. There can be pretty big differences in the same model.



don't push man! lol
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kramergfy
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2021 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I’ll add my 2 cents; I had a Shew horn for a spell and liked how it played, but always felt the sound was a bit too light and spread for a lot of concert/wind ensemble and symphonic music. The Shew has a wide bell, which tend to sound less crisp at lower dynamics, but can really sound better than everything at loud dynamics, much like a rotary trumpet. Huge growl.

I prefer the tighter 37 bell for most things, and feel it’s an appropriate starting point as a first horn. There may be better options, but until you have years of playing experience in many ensembles, it’s really hard to figure out what you need.

After years of horn safaris, I now play an older 1967 Bach 37 that’s exactly like a new 19037, and find it to be the perfect trumpet for me overall. It’s truly a great compromise/middle of the road horn that feels like an old pair of shoes. I found the 43 to be similar in almost every way, but found the sound to be a tad less focused, but easier to push more up stairs.
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arker
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2021 9:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kramergfy wrote:
I’ll add my 2 cents; I had a Shew horn for a spell and liked how it played, but always felt the sound was a bit too light and spread for a lot of concert/wind ensemble and symphonic music. The Shew has a wide bell, which tend to sound less crisp at lower dynamics, but can really sound better than everything at loud dynamics, much like a rotary trumpet. Huge growl.

I prefer the tighter 37 bell for most things, and feel it’s an appropriate starting point as a first horn. There may be better options, but until you have years of playing experience in many ensembles, it’s really hard to figure out what you need.

After years of horn safaris, I now play an older 1967 Bach 37 that’s exactly like a new 19037, and find it to be the perfect trumpet for me overall. It’s truly a great compromise/middle of the road horn that feels like an old pair of shoes. I found the 43 to be similar in almost every way, but found the sound to be a tad less focused, but easier to push more up stairs.




That's where this thread begin at Mr.
I had a tendency to think like you do with all your experience.

At the the other hand, why not? won't harm you know.

look at it! price seems not to be a good parameter.

8310Z $2.500
180S37 $3.000
LR180S-43 $3.300
190S37 $3.670

and maybe a 190s37 is not a grand better than a Shew...
since the price is not the issue, I should try all of them for a while and only then choose the one that I like the most.

plan B: go for the conservative meaning at the end of the day a Shew is a "thematic" instrument and a bach is more trumpet in its essence so better to understand the business (I am a 10 months player!)

thank you!
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Brassnose
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Buy a used horn you think may fit, play it exclusively for a year or two, learn and practice, and then (if need be) buy another used horn you think fits better. Play them back to back for a while, sell the one that fits less. Repeat until you’ve found „the one“. If you stick with reputed brand used horns you should not lose much money but gain experience, step by step.

There are loads of quality horns including Bachs and Shews in the marketplace, why buy new?

Get a teacher and practice. Repeat over and over.
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 31, 2021 2:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi

I've only skim read the thread, being in a hurry as usual, but as you probably know already, you are comparing apples with oranges. The Bach Strad is a great all-around trumpet. Why not compare a Bach 37 or 43 with a Yamaha Xeno, which is a more general purpose Yamaha option than the Shew.

I have a Yamaha Xeno II and a Bach 37. I love my Yamaha Xeno II, and it is my go to trumpet for both orchestral and jazz.

All the best

Lou

Edit. I decided to slow down and read the thread in its entirety, and I notice that no one suggests the Xeno, and I wonder why. Especially the Xeno II, is a great all-around trumpet in my opinion. I love mine. I always joke that it takes something special in a trumpet, to make me, whose first musical love is cornet, smile, and smile indeed I do with the Xeno II in my hand. I definitely think that it worth the OP trying one along with the Bach Strad
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Brassnose
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 31, 2021 2:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don’t like the Xeno horns so much, so I did not suggest them. I have no idea why I like the Bachs but not their „knockoffs“ (please note I put this in quotation marks!) - I have a similar feeling with the B&S Strad-type trumpets, they just don’t do it for me while for flugelhorns it’s just the inverse: not so fond of the Bachs but really like B&S and and also quite like Yamaha.
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 31, 2021 3:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brassnose wrote:
I don’t like the Xeno horns so much, so I did not suggest them. I have no idea why I like the Bachs but not their „knockoffs“ (please note I put this in quotation marks!) - I have a similar feeling with the B&S Strad-type trumpets, they just don’t do it for me while for flugelhorns it’s just the inverse: not so fond of the Bachs but really like B&S and and also quite like Yamaha.


Hi Brassnose

Fair enough. Have you played the Xeno II? I think that it is a big improvement on the 6335H/6335H and Xeno I. Those were good trumpets, but a bit vanilla sounding, and on which it was less easy to colour your sound than on say a Bach Strad.

I sold my 6335HGII for this reason, and bought a Bach 37, only to now be back on Yamaha. My Xeno II has all the attributes of my former 6335HGII that I previously liked, but with a far better response, and it being far easier to colour the sound.

I honestly think that mouthpiece gap is an issue with the Yamaha trumpets. I don't like them with standard Bach mouthpieces. Yamaha mouthpieces insert around 1mm or so further than modern Bach mouthpieces (or at least how Bach mouthpieces inserted last time I tried new ones (between 2005 and 2010)), and the difference is night and day (at least in my opinion) on the Yamaha trumpets, if you sleeve a modern Bach mouthpiece to insert equivalently to a Yamaha mouthpiece in a Yamaha trumpet. As an example, my 1994 Bach 7C trumpet mouthpiece, which I used to use on my previous 6335HGII inserts around 1mm further (and equvialent to the supplied 16C4 mouthpiece of my Xeno II) than the 2005 Bach 3C I used on my Bach 37. Owing to the rim of my Bach 3C having worn over time, I now play a James R New modular top copy of the cup end of my Bach 3C, combined with his version of a standard Bach 10 backbore (rather than the slightly more open Bach 10 backbore, which is the S backbore of his mouthpiece range) cut for sleeves, with his 6.5 sleeve (which inserts a fraction further than the supplied Yamaha 16C4 mouthpiece). Works great for me on the Xeno II.

All the best

Lou
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improver
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 31, 2021 3:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Shew horns seem tight to me. Get a used 37 you wont regret it.
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Brassnose
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 31, 2021 4:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Lou, I have play tested a number of Yamahas, oh, around Xmas 2019, I’d say, including the Shew 63xx and 83xx series, bunch of Xenos including a few Xeno II and also the Moschberger and the Bergeron model, not sure if they are Xeno II.

The heavier Yamahas I sorted out rather quickly, again I am not sure why they did not speak to me. The Moschberger and Bergeron models felt tight, tighter than the 83xx Shew models, in fact (which is counterintuitive, but well …).

The honest answer probably is that I am so much used to my Bach, having played it for almost 30 years that I would have a hard time finding something that I could adapt quickly and naturally.

There is a list of horns that played really good for me (besides those in the signature, obviously) but the list really is quite short.

Those are horns I’d consider equal or better than the Bach FOR ME for various reasons (sound, presence, attacks, intonation, valves, …) in no particular order:

— Hüttl Silver Colibri (oddball choice, I know, but the horn sounds and plays great!)
— Conn V1 (would love to test all different bell variants in a big band rehearsal)
— Conn 52B (even better than the V1 for me)
— any Martin Schmidt piston horn
— my teachers Selmer Radial (maybe any Selmer Radial? I might go for one at some point)
— Schilke B6 (like that brilliance and ease in the upper register)
— Edwards X-13 (this may be THE one better horn I’d need to save my money for).
— interested in testing the Bach Mariachi and Commercial

Even custom horns I tried over the years did not make me want to buy other horns so much - after testing horns of at least one German custom maker I happily left again with my Bach.

Lou, may I suspect that your liking for the slightly broader Yamaha sound has to do with your musical history? I come primarily from a big band/funk/pop commercial background and to me the Bach’s represent that “presence” of the sound much more than the somewhat broader sound of the Yamahas - I really hear quite a sound difference between the Bach and the Yams. This is also the reason why I bought my Schmidt rotary for orchestral stuff. The Bach just kills the strings and woodwinds. My trumpet buddy in the orchestra also switched to a Scherzer rotary from a Bach 43 for the same reason.

Sorry for drifting off topic, everyone!
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 31, 2021 4:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Brassnose

Thank you very much. I've had a quick read of your post, and am looking forward to reading it properly later (I'm in a noisy environment and I want to read it when I'm in a better position to concentrate on what you are saying), and replying.

If you don't mind me asking, can I ask just one quick question, and that it regarding the mouthpiece which you used on the heavier Yamaha models. Did you try a sleeved mouthpiece, or one that inserts further than a modern Bach mouthpiece?

I tried my ex demo Xeno II on approval with my Bach 3C. I nearly sent it back, as it played really stuffy compared to my Bach 37, and was dead sounding and fairly unresponsive. I then tried it with a sleeved copy of my Bach 3C (Kanstul custom 3C top (copy of the cup end of my Bach 3C) with a Kanstul B10 backbore sleeved by a UK tech), I had that coincidentally inserted the same as the supplied 16C4. The difference was absolutely night and day. Suddenly this dead sounding, stuffy trumpet came to life in my hand, beautifully responsive with a lovely sound. A year or so later I changed this sleeved backbore to a James R New 6.5 one, simply because the one I was using was raw brass.

I truly believe that the Xeno comes to life, both in response and sound, with a smaller mouthpiece gap.

All the best

Lou
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Brassnose
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 31, 2021 5:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Lou, it’s been a while so I’m not quite sure anymore, but my travel mouthpiece is a JK USA 5C. I may also have had one of the Monettes I was still playing at the time with me. That would have been a B4L and a B4S S2 STC1. The pieces I play now are in the signature.
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TrumpetMD
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 31, 2021 7:08 am    Post subject: Re: Bach Strad or Yamaha Shew for a newbie is a sacrilege?? Reply with quote

arker wrote:
... and between a girlfriend or a trumpet I chose the trumpet). It's like a hobby for me...

I have a TR300 Brach (I know!), bought for $100 on craigslist...and I think I deserve an upgrade.

I am thinking Yamaha Bobby Shew or a Bach Strad 37 or 43.

In order of preference.

1) Go back to your girlfriend. She'll treat you much better than your trumpet.

2) You don't tell us the condition of the TR300. Is there something wrong with it? You've only been playing for 10 months. It might be worth sticking with this horn while you're still developing.

3) I agree that you should skip the intermediate level horns.

4) If you're looking to upgrade, especially being a new player, I'd stick with a more general-purpose horn. Bach 37 or 43, Yamaha Xeno, Schilke S32 or B5, etc.

5) You talk about being an online buyer. FWIW, you already have 20 mouthpieces, 19 of which you don't like. It'll be much more expensive to do this with trumpets. Find a store that stocks a number of trumpets, and try them out to see what you like. Maybe someone can suggest a good store to visit where you live?

Mike
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Plus a few other Bach, Getzen, Olds, Carol, HN White, and Besson horns.
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Vin DiBona
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 31, 2021 7:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To the OP.
At this point in your development, it might be a bit difficult to figure out which horn you like best. Yet when you do find the right one, you will truly enjoy playing it and won't have to wonder "did I pick the right one".
After 15 years of playing a Schilke B1, I have gone to a Bach 190/37S.
At 70, the Bach fits me better now than the more open Schilke.
Both are great horns. I have owned many superb horns, Olds, Selmer, aa Burbank Benge 5X I got in high school and played for over 20 years, Yamahas, Bachs, a custom built Lawler, and a couple of Kanstul models.

I don't like to give advice but in this case I will throw some things out there.
A Bach 43 or 37 should work for you. If you can swing it, get a 190 version.
The Yamaha Shew horn would also be a good choice, but after some time, you might (emphasis on might) not find the sound to your liking.
The new Xeno models are much closer to the Bach sound than ever before. They play well. Bear in mind that many pros use Bachs for a reason - the sound. They are used in commercial playing, jazz, and of course, classical. Xenos might be a bit easier to play for you. That is up to you.
Another Yamaha to consider is the 6335. They play very well, too and I used one for some time.
Another excellent product is the Jupiter series.Their 1602 XO is a splendid instrument much like the Bach and Xeno horns.
I've have played at a decent professional level since my late teens and that is 50+ years ago. Over the many years I've played in ensembles with members of the Chicago Symphony and with other world renown instrumentalists.
What I have learned from these master players is you find the one you like and play it.
Good luck and enjoy the horn you pick.
R. Tomasek
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