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Bach Strad or Yamaha Shew for a newbie is a sacrilege???


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Brassnose
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 31, 2021 8:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I’d like to support the statement by Vin DiBona and to re-iterate what I said way above. If you buy a used, standard brand horn online and you don’t like it, you’ll be able to sell it again at no or only a little loss. Repeat until you find one you really like but don’t flip the horns too fast. Give yourself months or even a year or two to find out if you like it. Some horns take more time than others, especially for people (re)starting on the trumpet, to get to really appreciate them.
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a.kemp
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 31, 2021 8:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

All the trumpets you mention are quite good!
Try them and pick the one you enjoy playing!

New, used. Totally up to you.
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 31, 2021 11:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brassnose wrote:
Hi Lou, I have play tested a number of Yamahas, oh, around Xmas 2019, I’d say, including the Shew 63xx and 83xx series, bunch of Xenos including a few Xeno II and also the Moschberger and the Bergeron model, not sure if they are Xeno II.

Hi Brassnose

Thank you very much. I've never heard of the Moschberger. No, I don't think that the Bergeron is a Xeno II horn.


The heavier Yamahas I sorted out rather quickly, again I am not sure why they did not speak to me.

I wonder whether this was a mouthpiece gap issue, considering my initial experience of the Xeno II, but maybe it was just personal preference.

The Moschberger and Bergeron models felt tight, tighter than the 83xx Shew models, in fact (which is counterintuitive, but well …).

To be the honest, I don't know why this would be the case.

The honest answer probably is that I am so much used to my Bach, having played it for almost 30 years that I would have a hard time finding something that I could adapt quickly and naturally.

Without a doubt, we do adapt to the horn we have, learn its subtle nuances, and how to get our best out of it.

There is a list of horns that played really good for me (besides those in the signature, obviously) but the list really is quite short.

Those are horns I’d consider equal or better than the Bach FOR ME for various reasons (sound, presence, attacks, intonation, valves, …) in no particular order:

— Hüttl Silver Colibri (oddball choice, I know, but the horn sounds and plays great!)
— Conn V1 (would love to test all different bell variants in a big band rehearsal)
— Conn 52B (even better than the V1 for me)
— any Martin Schmidt piston horn
— my teachers Selmer Radial (maybe any Selmer Radial? I might go for one at some point)
— Schilke B6 (like that brilliance and ease in the upper register)
— Edwards X-13 (this may be THE one better horn I’d need to save my money for).
— interested in testing the Bach Mariachi and Commercial

Even custom horns I tried over the years did not make me want to buy other horns so much - after testing horns of at least one German custom maker I happily left again with my Bach.

Interesting, thanks.

Lou, may I suspect that your liking for the slightly broader Yamaha sound has to do with your musical history? I come primarily from a big band/funk/pop commercial background and to me the Bach’s represent that “presence” of the sound much more than the somewhat broader sound of the Yamahas - I really hear quite a sound difference between the Bach and the Yams. This is also the reason why I bought my Schmidt rotary for orchestral stuff. The Bach just kills the strings and woodwinds. My trumpet buddy in the orchestra also switched to a Scherzer rotary from a Bach 43 for the same reason.

Interesting again, thanks, and you could very well be right about the reasons for choosing the sound of my Yamaha. I've never really thought about it. I really like my sound on my Yamaha, and have received many compliments in orchestral settings, regarding my sound on my Xeno II, which is always nice. My background is mainly brass band, concert band, light orchestra and symphony orchestra, and I used to do old time dance band and big band trumpet playing, but not since I've had the Xeno II. although I do use it for my husband's American Songbook/light jazz band.

I'm not sure whether the Xeno II represents the trumpet sound I have in my head, just suits my natural sound, or I've grown to really like my sound on this trumpet.


Sorry for drifting off topic, everyone!

I'm very sorry too.

Take care and best wishes

Lou

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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 31, 2021 11:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brassnose wrote:
Hi Lou, it’s been a while so I’m not quite sure anymore, but my travel mouthpiece is a JK USA 5C. I may also have had one of the Monettes I was still playing at the time with me. That would have been a B4L and a B4S S2 STC1. The pieces I play now are in the signature.


Hi again Brassnose

Thanks very much for the clarification.

I wonder what your impression would have been with mouthpieces with less gap.

All the best

Lou
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- James R New Custom 3Cs
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Bach Strad 184ML
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 31, 2021 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The newest generation Xeno is a fantastic horn and one of the few new produced horns I've played that I'd consider purchasing.

It's responsive, somewhat flexible, has a great sound, but is also fairly secure. It plays circles around at least 95% of Bach 37's I've tried in my life.

That said the "circles" part is definitely my opinion and based on my playing preferences (which don't usually include the Bach 37). Both are fine horns, and feel and play differently. I'd imagine most players would have a preference between the two and it might not match with mine, which is fine.

However, definitely worth trying.

Also, worth noting and mentioning are Shires horns, which are made in Massachusetts. The model A and B are similar to Bach horns, but simply play better IMO, and some others on this board. The model C series is my personal favorite, more in the vein of Benge and Besson like horns.
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21trumpet
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 31, 2021 1:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Bach Strad or Yamaha Shew for a newbie is a sacrilege?? Reply with quote

arker wrote:
Hello!

My first post here so you know...
I am 52, playing self tough (Clarke) for 10 months now...12 major scales by heart, chromatic, blues scale, some ballads, some riffs by ear... ok, I played harmonica for 10 years 20 years ago, I've already known how to read music sheets, divorced, pandemic, and between a girlfriend or a trumpet I chose the trumpet). It's like a hobby for me...

I have a TR300 Brach (I know!), bought for $100 on craigslist...and I think I deserve an upgrade.

I am thinking Yamaha Bobby Shew or a Bach Strad 37 or 43.
I tend to go with the Shew, but I wonder if that "progressive" lead pipe thing or even the reverse lead pipe may mess up my early learnings (even if I like how the Shew feels to play)

Putting money aside, Is there any assertive technical recommendation?
Should I go for an intermediate one?

Thank you!


Just going to give my 2 cents since I actually own the Shew 2 and have been playing it for the last 1 and 1/2 years. I have also owned in the past a Bach 37 and also more recently the Bach 43. I am just not a Bach fan except maybe for the Commercial model. For the money you can’t go wrong with the Shew but I do agree that every player is different so I do also suggest to go ahead and try them all first if possible. The guy I bought the Shew from wanted to buy it back from me and he ended up finding another one on TH used and he is very happy with his Shew. Good luck in your quest.
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 31, 2021 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Crazy Finn wrote:
The newest generation Xeno is a fantastic horn and one of the few new produced horns I've played that I'd consider purchasing.

It's responsive, somewhat flexible, has a great sound, but is also fairly secure. It plays circles around at least 95% of Bach 37's I've tried in my life.

That said the "circles" part is definitely my opinion and based on my playing preferences (which don't usually include the Bach 37). Both are fine horns, and feel and play differently. I'd imagine most players would have a preference between the two and it might not match with mine, which is fine.

Hi Crazy Finn

This is definitely how I see the Xeno II. When I first got it to replace my Bach 37 that I liked but had a horrible sticking valve, I was initially worried that it wouldn't be as good a trumpet as my 1970s Bach 37, and that maybe I shouldn't give up on my Bach, but it didn't take long for the Xeno II to win me over and more. I completely agree with your description of the playing characteristics of the Xeno II. I finally solved the sticking valve issue of my Bach 37, but it remains in its case. I completely agree that the Xeno II plays circles around my Bach 37, and my preference is undoubtedly for the Xeno II.

However, definitely worth trying.

I completely agree.

Take care and best wishes

Lou


Also, worth noting and mentioning are Shires horns, which are made in Massachusetts. The model A and B are similar to Bach horns, but simply play better IMO, and some others on this board. The model C series is my personal favorite, more in the vein of Benge and Besson like horns.

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- James R New Custom 3Cs
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camelbrass
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 31, 2021 10:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The poor old Bach Strad 37 gets a hammering on this site.

I get it, it's personal preference, but when you hear one played by the right player with the right mindset that sound fills the hall like no other, regardless of the volume.

Worth aspiring to.

Regards,


Trevor
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Brassnose
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2021 12:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I’d actually not be worried too much about the good ol’ 37. I mostly read the posts in a way that do not discount the 37. Rather I’d see people suggesting a load of other horns as well. And Bach always gets their share of negative comments in general. Don’t you worry ‘bout a thing, or so Stevie said
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2021 1:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

camelbrass wrote:
The poor old Bach Strad 37 gets a hammering on this site.

I get it, it's personal preference, but when you hear one played by the right player with the right mindset that sound fills the hall like no other, regardless of the volume.

Worth aspiring to.

Regards,


Trevor


Hi Trevor

I'm not giving the Bach 37 a hammering at all. I own one after all. I was just trying to suggest that the OP also tries the Xeno, and that the Xeno is the Yamaha trumpet that most people compare/suggest comparing to the Bach 37/43. I was just singing my praises of the Xeno, to balance other posters saying that they don't like it, so that the OP gets a variety of opinions. Yes, I prefer my Xeno II to my Bach 37, but I prefer my Xeno II to everything I've played since I got it (which is admittedly hardly anything), so maybe I just really like it. I personally think that the OP should try a Bach 37, Bach 43 and Xeno, and possibly not the Shew, as it is less of an all-around trumpet, although it can be used in all settings.

Take care and best wishes

Lou
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Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
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Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
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RL
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2021 3:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You're limiting your options by choosing between two brands.
You could buy a second hand trumpet which has less limitations then your current one just by trying them in a music store.

After a certain while you'll notice that your preferences will change and after that you could make a more " final" decision.
Lots of trumpet players are changing their gear frequently and you may have noticed that many players in this forum are owning more than one trumpet.
This says enough about the habits of a trumpet player
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trebleclefdave
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2021 7:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great thread - and timely!

I'm in a similar boat - looking to find a pro level horn to step up from a York 76 Series. Bach 37 and Xeno II are at the top of my list - but open to other models with great valves, excellent intonation, and super sound. Had a chance to play an 80s Bach 37 recently. That could certainly fit the bill but would really like to play a Xeno II and maybe others before making a decision.
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blbaumgarn
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2021 8:11 pm    Post subject: bach strad or yamaha shew for a beginner a sin? Reply with quote

Listen to and read everybody's council on this topic and go get what you want. It is your money and your playing experience. I don't think you can go wrong with either the Bach or Yamaha. I kind of feel like the Yamaha horns have the best quality control in the industry now and they are from everything I can find out are very consistent. Bach is kind of a benchmark horn in orchestras but Yamaha is now featured in many of the major orchestras. The Xenos are good at everything, as is the Shew horn. And, the Shew is not just a lead or jazz horn it is also versatile. Most of all have fun and satisfy yourself. Enjoy the music.
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Ed Kennedy
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2021 9:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trebleclefdave wrote:
Great thread - and timely!

I'm in a similar boat - looking to find a pro level horn to step up from a York 76 Series. Bach 37 and Xeno II are at the top of my list - but open to other models with great valves, excellent intonation, and super sound. Had a chance to play an 80s Bach 37 recently. That could certainly fit the bill but would really like to play a Xeno II and maybe others before making a decision.


Consider: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6f6tAkeW1fU&t=2s Edwards X17
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agroovin48
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2021 3:21 pm    Post subject: Bach Strad or Yamaha Shew.... Reply with quote

Just did a little side by side comparison with the same Bach 7C mouthpiece.

Yamaha 8335 Xeno II RGS - Yamaha 8310Z - Bach LR19043B

The Xeno II is a pre-production RGS. I fell in love with it immediately. Super responsive, wonderfully focused with a huge warm core to the sound. It has some unique indescribable quality to the sound that I absolutely love. The reverse lead pipe has just the right amount of resistance and slotting is effortless.

The 8310Z has a broader sound, but is big and bold and can light up so easily. Some people say it has a tendency to back up on them. I think that is because they are trying to put too much air into the horn. You don't have to work hard to play it. Put the right mouthpiece on it and go to town. It sounds great on almost anything.

Bach LR19043B, the Mariachi. Mine is one of a limited run with no engraving. Still a very beautiful horn. Love the bronze bell. It is a little broader in sound than the Xeno, but it still has that Bach core sound that seems to come through in a good Bach. It can be very bright or it can be dark. It depends on how you approach it. Sounds great with the 7C. The reverse 25 lead pipe works very well on it and it feels very comfortable and open.

Conclusion: Three great horns. It is a toss up on which is the best as they are all beautiful, but with different qualities. It would be very hard to pick one over the other, but there is something about my Xeno II RGS that pulls my heart strings.
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Robert P
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2021 5:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Bach Strad or Yamaha Shew for a newbie is a sacrilege?? Reply with quote

arker wrote:

I am thinking Yamaha Bobby Shew or a Bach Strad 37 or 43.
I tend to go with the Shew, but I wonder if that "progressive" lead pipe thing or even the reverse lead pipe may mess up my early learnings (even if I like how the Shew feels to play)

Putting money aside, Is there any assertive technical recommendation?
Should I go for an intermediate one?

Thank you!

It doesn't matter. Get either one. Try it for a while, then compare it to the other one and see how the comparison strikes you. Be sure you really like one better and you're not just experiencing "different is perceived as better" syndrome. Sell the one that comes in 2nd. Or don't sell it. At your stage of development can you even tell the difference between either of them and your eBay Bach?

FWIW I have a Besson 1000 I got for dirt cheap and I wouldn't hesitate to play it on a gig. IMO it blows great.

I'm sure everyone is giving their best honest assessment but input from people who I gather mostly have more experience than you and are playing with their own physiology and psychology behind the horn isn't likely to tell you what you're going to experience.
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arker
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2021 10:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Bach Strad or Yamaha Shew for a newbie is a sacrilege?? Reply with quote

TrumpetMD wrote:
arker wrote:
... and between a girlfriend or a trumpet I chose the trumpet). It's like a hobby for me...

I have a TR300 Brach (I know!), bought for $100 on craigslist...and I think I deserve an upgrade.

I am thinking Yamaha Bobby Shew or a Bach Strad 37 or 43.

In order of preference.

1) Go back to your girlfriend. She'll treat you much better than your trumpet.

2) You don't tell us the condition of the TR300. Is there something wrong with it? You've only been playing for 10 months. It might be worth sticking with this horn while you're still developing.

3) I agree that you should skip the intermediate level horns.

4) If you're looking to upgrade, especially being a new player, I'd stick with a more general-purpose horn. Bach 37 or 43, Yamaha Xeno, Schilke S32 or B5, etc.

5) You talk about being an online buyer. FWIW, you already have 20 mouthpieces, 19 of which you don't like. It'll be much more expensive to do this with trumpets. Find a store that stocks a number of trumpets, and try them out to see what you like. Maybe someone can suggest a good store to visit where you live?

Mike



Hello Mr.

My TR300 is fine but the sound quality and the tunning are horrible to me. That D in the staff is not a D! Awful sound...

I've been studying hard....I love to play and I can buy a good trumpet...so why not?

I live in Fort Collins, 1 hour far from Denver.
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2021 10:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Bach Strad or Yamaha Shew for a newbie is a sacrilege?? Reply with quote

arker wrote:
I live in Fort Collins, 1 hour far from Denver.

Road trip!

A trip to a shop with horns to try can be fun. I haven’t heard of any good shops in your area or Denver, but that doesn’t mean you won’t find one.

Other online options are to go with a respected music store. Dillons, Austin Custom Brass, Thompson Music all come to mind. They can consult with you and recommend trumpets they offer for sale, new and used. All have good reputations on this site.

Or…

Buy a used trumpet. Try it out. If you don’t care for it, buy another and sell the first after acquiring the second. (If you prefer to not go back to the TR300 in between)

That way you get to have the fun of trying many different instruments.

I don’t typically make recommendations since I am just some random player, but a pro level Bach, Yamaha, Schilke, Getzen would all be fine, IMO. There are many others that would be fine too, but those four are a decent starting point.

Some retailers offer lower priced options on new instruments where they personally check out each horn prior to selling. Austin Custom Brass comes to mind as one of those dealers.
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2021 7:40 am    Post subject: Re: Bach Strad or Yamaha Shew for a newbie is a sacrilege?? Reply with quote

arker wrote:
My TR300 is fine but the sound quality and the tunning are horrible to me. That D in the staff is not a D! Awful sound...


This raises a red flag for me.

The TR-300 is one of the better student horns. I have used one for some public performances in the past (Memorial Day). The leadpipe and bell are Strad tapers, and the bell is made at Bach Elkhart alongside Strad bells. The D you mention is characteristically flat on all 3 valve brass instruments and must be lipped, but is not unusual on a TR-300.

If as you say the horn is fine, then it might be prudent to get some lessons and see if the sound quality improves before trying to assess pro horns. - unless in truth the horn has something seriously wrong with it. You should probably have someone look at it. This is another situation where having a teacher helps.
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trickg
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2021 8:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If there isn't a budgetary concern, buy the best horn you can afford - it will inspire you to practice and you'll know from the jump that the horn isn't holding you back - that way you can focus on your craft in the practice room.

That's what I did for my son with guitar. When he started showing some real promise, and was starting to obsess over gear due to his student level starter guitars, I got him a genuine Gibson Les Paul Standard. He stopped chasing gear, played that guitar every day until his fingers were sore, and his rate of progression skyrocketed.

Get the best horn you can afford - it's not a sacrilege at all.
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