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khedger
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 10, 2021 9:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just a few comments about the discussion of Miles:

technical ability - Miles got a lot of s*)* for not being a great player technically. This is crap. I think that early in his career (like when he was with Bird) he was still getting his technical thing together and that's when he got tagged with this 'bad technique' thing. The other is that in a lot of Miles' playing over the years he's pushing the envelope while improvising. I just think his priority was more on the substance of what he was playing than the technique per se. Plus there were a lot of drugs, fatigue, and health problems over the years.
I was in the audience for two of the shows recorded for the 'We Want Miles' album and let me tell you, I was blown away! I didn't really expect him to play much that night but he played his butt off. Anybody that thinks he had bad technique is just not listening.

his innovation not mentioned - Delano points out that his innovations are mentioned quite often and he's right, of course. I was trying to say that when most people think about his artistic legacy (especially trumpet players) I think they tend to focus strictly on his playing and sometimes miss the monumental significance he had on jazz and music in general.....that's all I was trying to get across...

And now, a little tale. When I was in high school (mid 70s) a friend turned me on to Weather Report with an album called 'Tale Spinnin' which is one of their ethno hip, middle period albums. I loved it. I immediately went out and purchased another one called 'Weather Report', which was their first album. This one was much more 'abstract', and while I had no experience with the more free elements of jazz at that point, I really dug this album. The next day I went to a fellow trumper, listening buddy's house and played the WR for him. After a side he frowned and said "you like that?" to which I replied, "yes, a lot". "Well if you like that, you HAVE this. I bought it yesterday and I can't stand it." He then handed me a brand new copy of Miles Live at Fillmore. That night on first listening I was in modern jazz heaven!!!!

keith
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delano
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2021 12:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great post. And to clear up a few things. This all is not about taste. Everybody is entiteld to prefer Al Hirt or Doc above Miles. It's for me about the heaps of super negative critic on Miles as a player and musician. I don't mean anybody here personally.
In fact I can't understand that a nation like the USA with quite a nationalistic feeling and tradition, treat a man who is for me an extraordinaire genius in the field of music, one who IMO becomes close to the great classical composers in the sense that he seemed to have what Mozart had: some direct connection with a world outside us, some directness in the expression of the unexpressionable (is this a word?), something you can't buy and something that can't be learned or practisized.
But Mozart ended anonym in a mass grave, some things obviously need some time to get their place in this world.
I think Miles deserves to be honoured as a a great American.
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mhenrikse
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2021 4:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trickg wrote:
I've never been into Miles. For some guys the sun rises and sets with Miles Davis. I can't tell you the number of times someone, after learning that I was a trumpet player would ask, "oh - so you like Miles Davis?" No. Not really. And I've tried. Either I just don't understand what I'm listening to, and therefore don't have the ability to appreciate it, or if it's something else.

It's undeniable what he did as a musician - he pushed the envelope, took things in new directions, and put together some really fabulous bands - but Miles just has never been my cup of tea.

That recording sounds decent though - it's some of the better playing I've heard from him.


Listen to Shirley Horn with Miles on one track and Wynton on the other. Miles is so much more after just one note, and he even clammed it!
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trickg
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2021 4:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mhenrikse wrote:
trickg wrote:
I've never been into Miles. For some guys the sun rises and sets with Miles Davis. I can't tell you the number of times someone, after learning that I was a trumpet player would ask, "oh - so you like Miles Davis?" No. Not really. And I've tried. Either I just don't understand what I'm listening to, and therefore don't have the ability to appreciate it, or if it's something else.

It's undeniable what he did as a musician - he pushed the envelope, took things in new directions, and put together some really fabulous bands - but Miles just has never been my cup of tea.

That recording sounds decent though - it's some of the better playing I've heard from him.


Listen to Shirley Horn with Miles on one track and Wynton on the other. Miles is so much more after just one note, and he even clammed it!

Which songs specifically?
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mhenrikse
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2021 5:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trickg wrote:
mhenrikse wrote:
trickg wrote:
I've never been into Miles. For some guys the sun rises and sets with Miles Davis. I can't tell you the number of times someone, after learning that I was a trumpet player would ask, "oh - so you like Miles Davis?" No. Not really. And I've tried. Either I just don't understand what I'm listening to, and therefore don't have the ability to appreciate it, or if it's something else.

It's undeniable what he did as a musician - he pushed the envelope, took things in new directions, and put together some really fabulous bands - but Miles just has never been my cup of tea.

That recording sounds decent though - it's some of the better playing I've heard from him.


Listen to Shirley Horn with Miles on one track and Wynton on the other. Miles is so much more after just one note, and he even clammed it!

Which songs specifically?



Track 3 "Don't Let the Sun Catch You Crying" - Marsalis
Track 13 "You Won't Forget Me" - Davis
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delano
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2021 5:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rothman wrote:
delano wrote:


In my country I'm not allowed to open this site

The objections against Miles'electric work are IMO the same as the reactions on Bob Dylan's abondoning the folk guitar, the public wants the famous one seeing repeating his little thing till he dies. Some do, some don't. Dylan and Miles belong to the don't group.
Miles had to go on, so I don't think the criticisme was justified.


Meat and potatoes part of the link...

"The best-known example is distinguished black jazz historian Stanley Crouch's diatribe in The New Republic in February, titled Play the Right Thing and subtitled "The most brilliant sellout in the history of jazz."

A thorough thrashing, it berates Davis for "terrible performances and terrible recordings" and labels him "the most remarkable licker of moneyed boots in the music business, willing now to pimp himself as he once pimped women when he was a drug addict" -- the latter an allegation Davis confirms as true in his book.

Crouch attacks Davis not only for his "sellout" to the greater commercial appeal of rock over jazz, but for the implicit racism in moving from "black" jazz toward "white" rock and a "youth culture vulgarity that vandalizes the sweep and substance of Afro-American life."


Now I see. I did read that comment from Crouch years ago and I don't think it has any worth. It has never been said but I do it now: Miles has always been an almost "white" player in my opinion. He developed quite quickly a pleasing sound and made 'cool' records. The projects with Gil Evans especially Porgy and Bess and Sketches of Spain can easily be seen as commercial products aimed at a large, most white public. Let's not forget that even The Birth of Cool had with Kai Winding, Junior Collins, John Barber, Lee Konitz, Gerry Mulligan, Al Haig, Joe Shulman and Gerry and Gil as arrangers almost a complete white line-up. Still these Gil Evans records belong to the best he made.

That picture changed I suppose in the period of his second great quintet. His sound became harsher and not very pleasing anymore, more a hard bop thing. And with the start of his electric period he changed his sound again in the direction of a black power sound. This is also the time a became something of an activist for black power.
I see the young(er) Miles Davis more as what we call here in Holland a 'bounty', white inside, black or brown on the outside. And he came from a well to do family, his coquetry with behaving like a pimp and other gangsta behaviour (probably also his drug thing) is just frustration: knowing he was not one of the tough guys.

About being commercial: in my view the USA is a tough country, you have to take care of yourself, nobody else will. Let's not forget that Armstrong made his immortal Hot Five and Hot Seven recordings not with a working band. And I still doubt that Armstrong without his singing should has been as famous as he got. Armstrong used his celebrity as "the greatest trumpeter in the world' to become an entertainer as soon as possible. He wanted to be a star in theatres and movies and not end as an obscure club player. Was that wrong? I don't think so. It's a pity that it seemed to be a necessity and it has been indeed a loss for the music.
Same for Miles. From the start of his career he wanted to play for a big audience, see above. He wanted to play concerthalls, festivals, big things. I think there has never been such super playing and super competent groups as his two great quintets/sextet. But R&R, Soul and then The Beatles changed the music world and the music stage and Miles had a choice to make where to go. The rest is history. And I think it's hypocrite to blame Louis and Miles for their choices.

Someone like Crouch seem to accuse Miles of some kind of treason of the music. That's too easy, if Crouch wanted it all different he should have paid Miles or organize something like that. Miles was not resposible for the economic reality nor had the obigation to became some type of martyr for the sake of the music.
BTW a critics story is just that, they can write what they want, still it are only words and they did not and will not change anything.
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lipshurt
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2021 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

that stanley crouch stuff sounds like it could be a plausible criticism except for one thing......
Apparently crouch read an articlle or heard through the grapevine that miles was "playing Rock music".... and he assumed that meant he was selling out, and playing music with a great appeal to a massive audience, and was doing it to make money..

Have you ever heard Bitches brew? or Live at the fillmore? or On the corner? or live/evil? Apparently crouch never too the time to listen to those. Now i love live at the filmore, but I'm quite certain that if you get me in a room with 10,000 people who are looking for ways to spend their entertainment dollars, I'm gonna be like the only person saying "yeah i dig that". those records are simply the absolute antithesis of commercial music. It has no commercial appeal except to people like me, and maybe 25 percent of trumpet herald, who are a tiny tiny peice of the commercial music pie. Crouch was just plain stupid for missing the basic truth of that.

Now to some folks on here who have bought into the bogus notion that miles was a primitive player with no chops or technique but still had some magic musical connection .... wrong. Miles played his ass off. great chops, great time, great sound, great technique. He even double tongues octaves like vizzutti, but in a musical way that sounds so natural that you dont even think of it as pyrotechnics. Just music, Masterfully played by a player who studied his ass off, took lessons with the best, and wanted to tell Arsenio Hall about how Gustat taught him the non-presure system when he was in high school.
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rothman
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2021 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For recordings that held little to no commercial value, other than jazz oriented fans, it would be worth knowing the kind of contract Columbia set up for Miles, and perhaps contrast with Bill Chase's more obvious rock style debut album.

At his peak he was often down to his last $600 - 800 trying to pay people and the band, not in a plush setting by the shore in Malibu, with canvas and paint.
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khedger
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2021 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rothman wrote:
For recordings that held little to no commercial value, other than jazz oriented fans, it would be worth knowing the kind of contract Columbia set up for Miles, and perhaps contrast with Bill Chase's more obvious rock style debut album.

At his peak he was often down to his last $600 - 800 trying to pay people and the band, not in a plush setting by the shore in Malibu, with canvas and paint.


Don't believe the 'little commercial value' thing. True, jazz records don't sell huge numbers in the short term, but Columbia is STILL making money off of 'Kind of Blue', recorded 60 years ago! Not to mention 'Bitches Brew' and all of the other material. You can bet that Columbia made their money back 100 fold on the Miles Davis deal....

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Halflip
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2021 9:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rothman wrote:
. . . not in a plush setting by the shore in Malibu, with canvas and paint.


I believe I read that Mr. Davis made the bulk of his fortune not from record company earnings, but rather from investing those earnings in utility stocks and municipal bonds.
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delano
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2021 12:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lipshurt wrote:


(...)

Now to some folks on here who have bought into the bogus notion that miles was a primitive player with no chops or technique but still had some magic musical connection .... wrong. Miles played his ass off. great chops, great time, great sound, great technique. He even double tongues octaves like vizzutti, but in a musical way that sounds so natural that you dont even think of it as pyrotechnics. Just music, Masterfully played by a player who studied his ass off, took lessons with the best, and wanted to tell Arsenio Hall about how Gustat taught him the non-presure system when he was in high school.


Great stuff.
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HackAmateur
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2021 6:48 pm    Post subject: This Reply with quote

trickg wrote:
I've never been into Miles. For some guys the sun rises and sets with Miles Davis. I can't tell you the number of times someone, after learning that I was a trumpet player would ask, "oh - so you like Miles Davis?" No. Not really. And I've tried. Either I just don't understand what I'm listening to, and therefore don't have the ability to appreciate it, or if it's something else.

It's undeniable what he did as a musician - he pushed the envelope, took things in new directions, and put together some really fabulous bands - but Miles just has never been my cup of tea.

That recording sounds decent though - it's some of the better playing I've heard from him.


TrickG basically just said it all. This is exactly how I feel about Miles Davis' playing.

However, I do wanna give Miles credit where credit is due. He wasn't just a trumpeter. Like myself, he was also a composer. That makes him more "relatable" to me because I also happen to be a composer alongside being a trumpeter.

So, despite the fact Miles' sound isn't quite what I like to hear, I respect the crap out of him because perhaps his main claim to fame wasn't that he played the trumpet... it was that he could compose the crap out of jazz music while maintaining pretty good trumpet fundamentals. That ought to be respectable to anybody, including those of us who don't really appreciate his sound concept or style.
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A.N.A.Mendez
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2021 8:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

zero to race in 60 seconds......

God... What a mess we live in.
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rothman
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2021 8:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some interesting exchanges between James Mtume, and Stanley Crouch. Unfortunately, it's not the full debate, but an abridged version, that reduces Crouch's output in favor of Mtume...but who also is a good speaker himself.



Link
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delano
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2021 2:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The sound of this clip is not very good and sometimes it went very fast so for me as a foreigner it was not always easy to follow but I loved the things Mtume said.
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huntman10
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2021 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Like several other posters on this thread, I acquired a few Miles albums from the Columbia Record Club. I liked listening to them then, and knew it was some kind of experience that I had not tasted before. Of course, I was then and am now a small town hick with a thing for brass instruments with three or four valves. But somehow I could tell that what he played on those platters was just the right thing, the right tone and pitch and all those musical elements to say what he was saying. But it takes a commitment to find that message, and maybe it isn't for everyone.

But I must admit, in some ways, it was like listening to excellent Italian Opera Arias. The music was strong and emotional and moving, but I didn't understand many of the words. But the difference was that the opera stuff had liner notes that explained what was going on, and with the operas, I could whistle the tunes, or sing the music without words on that old smokey tractor I had to drive around on the farm. Actually had neighbors a mile away who told me years later they could hear me on those spring Saturdays.

But I digress, I agree that what Miles did was the best I ever heard of that genre'. But that genre' is totally immersive. You can't listen to it and do something else, like listening in your car while the kids fuss in the back, or play it in your office while you read some boring regulations.

Turn down the lights, turn off the TV, maybe get a glass of wine or Grape Nehi, and immerse yourself in Miles. Only then can you get close to understanding the words. And even then, maybe your experience will not be satisfying. It's not everyone's cup of Nehi. So I rarely listen to him these days. Not a negative for him, but for my lack of understanding.
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Rod Haney
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2021 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

trickg wrote:
I've never been into Miles. For some guys the sun rises and sets with Miles Davis. I can't tell you the number of times someone, after learning that I was a trumpet player would ask, "oh - so you like Miles Davis?" No. Not really. And I've tried. Either I just don't understand what I'm listening to, and therefore don't have the ability to appreciate it, or if it's something else.

It's undeniable what he did as a musician - he pushed the envelope, took things in new directions, and put together some really fabulous bands - but Miles just has never been my cup of tea.

That recording sounds decent though - it's some of the better playing I've heard from him.


I’m sure many will disagree with this post, but…

I always thought of Miles as a good head for composing and he took music in a different direction a few times. I admire him a lot for that. BUT I never thought of him as a great or even really good trumpet player. I’m sure I was incorrect but I felt I had much better trumpet skills as a sophomore in hi school. Didn’t have the head but I could play anything I heard him do with some semblance of tone many fewer chipped notes. If I had walked into Allstate tryouts with his attacks or tone I don’t think I would have made the band, certainly not 1st chair.

I had heard some early bop where he demonstrated some better skills, but not in later life IMO
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2021 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trumpet is hard enough that it's easy to focus on and marvel at players that command the instrument and do things that are HARD and rare. I certainly spend a lot of time in that space. Most of those same players exhibit artistry to various degrees but that's only part of the draw. Other players like Miles and Chet I don't expect to play the Carnival of Venice or Wayne's Oh Holy Night. Nor would I expect them to win competitions. With them, art is first and foremost with technical wizardry not really being the point.

No one wants to hear an artless technician just like no one wants to hear a player emote over changes with no sense of pitch or time. But generally discounting any player for not serving any other nitch often seems a hollow pursuit. I have completely different expectations for Maynard, Chase, Wayne, Malcolm, Miles, Sergei, Wynton, Alison, Chet, Miles, Clifford, Shew, Jens, Andre, Vizzutti, Mendez, Louis, Gansch... None detracts in the least from the others. Paraphrasing Hamilton, the world is wide enough for all of them, and they all have brought me an awful lot of joy.
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Rod Haney
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2021 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cheiden wrote:
Trumpet is hard enough that it's easy to focus on and marvel at players that command the instrument and do things that are HARD and rare. I certainly spend a lot of time in that space. Most of those same players exhibit artistry to various degrees but that's only part of the draw. Other players like Miles and Chet I don't expect to play the Carnival of Venice or Wayne's Oh Holy Night. Nor would I expect them to win competitions. With them, art is first and foremost with technical wizardry not really being the point.

No one wants to hear an artless technician just like no one wants to hear a player emote over changes with no sense of pitch or time. But generally discounting any player for not serving any other nitch often seems a hollow pursuit. I have completely different expectations for Maynard, Chase, Wayne, Malcolm, Miles, Sergei, Wynton, Alison, Chet, Miles, Clifford, Shew, Jens, Andre, Vizzutti, Mendez, Louis, Gansch... None detracts in the least from the others. Paraphrasing Hamilton, the world is wide enough for all of them, and they all have brought me an awful lot of joy.


Isn’t this what I said. Tremendous talent on the composition etc. but not a highly talented player in any technical sense. I always thought I would have enjoyed his playing more had he been a little more clean and accurate. I am more a fan of big band than small groups and that may have a lot to do with my opinion. While very few had his talent in writing or his sense and talent for less is more. Any lead or pops player in LA could play the notes better and with the feel as well if they knew the notes. I was lucky enough to have 2 band directors - one with experience with big time road bands and the other with classical experience. Both had been around great players from 2 different fields. Neither recommended looking to Miles as an example of the way to sound as a trumpet player who expected to make a living. What other venue would he have been successful at? I’m not banging on him as a musician as some of his songs are beautiful
And the sound is it’s own, but I would not try to take that sound to any other venue.

Can you imagine Miles on studio call, or in a theatre pit, or with a symphony. All the greats I recognize could pull all this off and sound good even playing Miles tunes. Maybe a great musical talent but a great trumpet player, no.
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blbaumgarn
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2021 12:36 am    Post subject: the greatest of them all Reply with quote

Miles was just "Miles" and a trumpet player at that. I don't know the Crouch character but what I have read he liked prodding people and downgrading rather than applaud anything anybody did that was positive and good. The last two years have done more to turn us into people who will never be able to get along with each other no matter what race of people we happen to be. Miles went places that no one else went with the horn. My brother, a trombone player, knew that years ago. I just started to fathom Miles and his gift in the last 15 years or so. I am glad he stayed after me and kept sending me CDs of Miles playing.
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