• FAQ  • Search  • Memberlist  • Usergroups   • Register   • Profile  • Log in to check your private messages  • Log in 

Major embouchure change, 20th month report


Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> High Range Development
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Lionel
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 25 Jul 2016
Posts: 783

PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2021 10:20 pm    Post subject: Major embouchure change, 20th month report Reply with quote

In late Nov of 2019 I began a radical embouchure change. A positioning and usage of facial and lip muscles completely foreign to my former way of playing. My reasons for making the change was in part,

1. Due to a tooth loss that rendered it impossible to play effectively on my former set of chops. And,

2. A long-held desire I've had to change over to the Stevens-Costello embouchure system.

The Stevens-Costello system is a radical change from conventional studies. The initial goal is to teach the beginning student both the reasons for his range limitation, that and the way to play correctly. That is without range limitations. All trumpet players who start the system first read the book and learn about how their chops receive air and convert it to sound production to build the complete range of the instrument.

Once the student becomes familiarized with the physics of embouchure related to a limitless range he then begins to build his extreme upper register first. This is probably the area that upsets traditional teachers the most. It is however the essence of this remarkable system.

My report:

Since I once was a very capable lead player I was initially impatient when studying and practicing, I suppose that this is normal. When my dental injury occurred, effectively ruining my chops, I felt very frustrated. After all I had been at least a capable trumpet and lead player for many decades prior.
I think that as experienced trumpet players, all of us that is, we easily forget what it initially was like way back when we were beginners. And another thing I'd like to mention is this: You who struggle probably don't realize this but even with your own personal limitations and difficulties YOU ACTUALLY HAVE A LOT OF TALENT! I know that this is so because I actually completely lost my ability to play the trumpet. Suddenly guys who had always depended upon me to blow the first or lead chair had to take over the Trumpet 1 book. Hey, it was a humbling experience. And there I was, just a year ago having great difficulty sustaining a mere F, top line of treble clef!! Took me almost six months to ''re-own'' that note.

Today at nearly twenty months into the game my bandstand range is ALMOST the first ledger line B flat above the treble clef. Meanwhile, my practice room range tends to fluctuate. As on a ''bad day,'' the mere High C could be problematic. But on a better day, or perhaps just a little later in the practice session, My range goes up to E's and G's ABOVE Double C. That feels really cool.

I'm hanging in there. As the fictional Yoda had said:

''Do or do not. There is no try''.

Most of my most significant challenges in life (as well as my personal successes) have happened after I made decisions based upon the only truly acceptable option that was left.

''When the situation is hopeless? There's nothing to worry about'' LOL!
_________________
"Check me if I'm wrong Sandy but if I kill all the golfers they're gonna lock me up & throw away the key"!

Carl Spackler (aka Bill Murray, 1980).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
steve0930
Veteran Member


Joined: 07 May 2018
Posts: 186

PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2021 11:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Lionel
Quote:
You who struggle probably don't realize this but even with your own personal limitations and difficulties YOU ACTUALLY HAVE A LOT OF TALENT!


I invariably enjoy reading your posts and as always your positive drive shines through. I will remember this sentence of yours tomorrow when I pick up the horn. Thanks.

After your input I did buy the Costello book and I have been moving to teeth closer together set up (which to my uneducated Trumpet-novice brain) does fit with the Roll Out exercises in Balanced Embouchure which, at least for me, also bring the teeth closer.

Right now I have the feeling that my ability to play playing effortlessly above the staff is almost there - I am almost within touching distance - but still just out of reach, maybe I'll never get there but I 'll get jolly close!

Have a nice weekend Steve

PS Unlike you I don't take daily notes, maybe I should, but I do keep a score. Today's total was a healthy 29. (4R 2B 13W)

Points
3 Red for that "YES!" punch the air feeling
2 Blue some technical / embouchure insight
1 White any time you pick up the horn
(red blue and white counters kept in my whisky glass...)
_________________
My Number 1 supporter
http://langdons.com/images/langdon-image.jpg
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Rod Haney
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 22 Aug 2015
Posts: 937

PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2021 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

steve0930 wrote:
Hi Lionel
Quote:
You who struggle probably don't realize this but even with your own personal limitations and difficulties YOU ACTUALLY HAVE A LOT OF TALENT!


I invariably enjoy reading your posts and as always your positive drive shines through. I will remember this sentence of yours tomorrow when I pick up the horn. Thanks.

After your input I did buy the Costello book and I have been moving to teeth closer together set up (which to my uneducated Trumpet-novice brain) does fit with the Roll Out exercises in Balanced Embouchure which, at least for me, also bring the teeth closer.

Right now I have the feeling that my ability to play playing effortlessly above the staff is almost there - I am almost within touching distance - but still just out of reach, maybe I'll never get there but I 'll get jolly close!

Have a nice weekend Steve

PS Unlike you I don't take daily notes, maybe I should, but I do keep a score. Today's total was a healthy 29. (4R 2B 13W)

Points
3 Red for that "YES!" punch the air feeling
2 Blue some technical / embouchure insight
1 White any time you pick up the horn
(red blue and white counters kept in my whisky glass...)


Steve, I’ll admit that what I know about the system is from reading the book, a few comments from others, and trying the concepts and exercises myself so I’m a novice in the method. But I’m pretty sure that the book is pretty specific about a 1/4” teeth opening with no more than opening or closing more than 1/8”, or 1/8” open total on the highest notes and 3/8” open total on lowest notes. In combination with a comfortable and functional ( meaning lip aperture between center of teeth to receive full measure of air) everything improves shortly tone range, and control, at least it has for me. I played too much on the upper lip and blocked too much of my air and led me to blow harder which doomed notes above hi f . The change to a proper 2 aperture system have me a hi g with much less effort. I can now touch dbl c and sometimes much higher, but at a much lower volume which would only be usable as screech into a mic.

I have a question on your mention of roll out. Are you using roll out for establishing grip on the mp and then rolling in to ascend. I get my jaw out as comfortably as I can with the lower teeth even or a little in front of the top teeth and roll the lower very slightly over the top of the lower set if I’m starting in middle register. This gives me leverage on the upper vibrating lip while I move the jaw slightly up as air effort increases. I can’t figure rolling out unless you are talking about keeping the upper lip on the lower as you extend your jaw. I am somewhat of an upstream player and I expect that may part of why this works for us both but using different methods, if wonder if our BE guru would comment on this. I’m certainly not saying either way is corr3ct as both of us are having good results just trying to plug into new thoughts on this.
Thanks for posting, send a pm if you wish.
Rod
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
steve0930
Veteran Member


Joined: 07 May 2018
Posts: 186

PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2021 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Rod

Quote:
I have a question on your mention of roll out................if wonder if our BE guru would comment on this


By coincidence the latest Topic in the Balanced Embouchure (BE) section is on roll outs and yes you will get an answer from Jeff. (doesn't get any more expert than that)

What I like about BE is that it gives precise instruction on how to practise BE exercises but no instruction on how to play the trumpet. Tongue position, Jaw movement, degree of roll in and out, face muscles - that's left entirely up to the individual to work out. Or rather - if you subscribe to the indirect learning approach - that's left entirely for the tongue, jaw, lips and face of each individual to work out for themselves.

The Stevens-Costello book gives me a - "Nudge towards learning" (Inner Game of Tennis - an essential read for all Trumpet players? ) and for me, for now, that's enough.

Like you I am now more up stream - a move which my lips, tongue, face and jaw have greeted with relief, I'm now Mr Popular - lets see how long that lasts...

Sent you a pm. Cheers and stay safe - Steve in Helsinki

PS We had porridge outside at 0600 this morning before my Number 1 supporter went to work - I am determined to eke out this Finnish summer to the last moment!
_________________
My Number 1 supporter
http://langdons.com/images/langdon-image.jpg
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Lionel
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 25 Jul 2016
Posts: 783

PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2021 8:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It has been my experience that no study book is complete on its own. However, the Stevens-Costello system is certainly the most specific one concerning physics. That said, I have learned a number of things on my own and unrelated to the Stevens System. Some of which I will list here:

A. Only the lower lip can apply much of the roll-in while actually playing the trumpet. The upper lip is the vibrating member of the embouchure ''team''. If we start screwing around by putting additional tension (on the upper lip) after setting the chops for the blow? The tone will usually cut out. Either that or diminish in timbre & volume.

So set the roll-in on your upper lip but LEAVE IT ALONE after you start pushing the air through the horn.

B. This doesn't apply to the lower lip. As it needs to help in controlling the elasticity of the upper lip while playing the trumpet. It is the lower lip that in conjunction with other facial muscles as well as jaw movement that assists in the changing of pitch and register. The general theme of this post is that the vibrating portion of the upper lip, (or rather that the portion of the upper lip that rests inside the mouthpiece!) is acutely sensitive to any unnecessary tension created both internally and externally.

I've always compared the average trumpet player, who never plays above a concert pitch High C to a grand piano that someone draped a blanket over the strings on the right side of the inner frame. In this fictional scenario had we opened up the grand piano and observed the strings being hit as we touched the keys? That we'd find that the last couple of octaves are automatically dampened by this figurative ''blanket''.

And that much of our efforts in learning the upper register on the trumpet relates to us discontinuing this effect. So really I see two areas of appropriate study:

1. Removing all impediments to sound production. (ie: closed teeth, excessive roll-in, excessive arm pressure etc).

2. Applying our knowledge to those muscles and body parts that actually do promote the production of sound throughout the complete range of the instrument.

I suppose that the third part here would be to consciously train our subconscious mind through patient practice so that it then controls the instrument without much thought being given to the process. Roy Stevens spent a good deal of time discussing the conscious vs subconscious mind in his book. He truly was a real genius. But if I may I'd like to point out a weakness in his approach. I don't enjoy saying this because I truly feel indebted to the man. He being long deceased now, he can't really defend himself. Nevertheless here follows my complaint.

Despite Roy's accurate assessment of embouchure AND the great number of successes his own students achieved? Roy still fell into a category of trumpet teachers of whom I have often found remiss in their knowledge. Stevens was only remiss in this ONE AREA but this single area is crucial at least to a sizeable minority of trumpet players interested in achieving the results of his system. And this condition is...

That Roy Stevens, himself was a strong natural player. As such he couldn't recognize the deficiencies in a small number of his students. I strongly believe that a certain minority of trumpet players who switch over to the Stevens method and follow it exactly as written will still fail. There was at least one key ingredient missing to his studies. And this is that not all trumpet players can move to a forward jaw positioning and still retain much resonance in their upper lip!!!

The key finding I've discovered during my 20 moth endeavor is that a beginning trumpet player absolutely MUST grow in RESONANCE! The vibrating portion of their upper lip must grow both in both endurance and tone production. And that the minority group I've defined as potential ''failures'' to the Stevens System probably possess an upper lip structure that can not improve much in resonance, AT LEAST not when playing ON TRADITIONALLY SIZED (trumpet) MOUTHPIECES!!!

This is my own theory and a pretty good one if I may add at the risk of appearing self-aggrandizing. I found this to be true because I myself just can't seem to put much sound out on a normal sized trumpet mouthpiece.
_________________
"Check me if I'm wrong Sandy but if I kill all the golfers they're gonna lock me up & throw away the key"!

Carl Spackler (aka Bill Murray, 1980).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
delano
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 18 Jan 2009
Posts: 3118
Location: The Netherlands

PostPosted: Tue Aug 10, 2021 2:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

deleted

Last edited by delano on Fri Aug 13, 2021 1:27 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Lionel
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 25 Jul 2016
Posts: 783

PostPosted: Tue Aug 10, 2021 4:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

delano wrote:
Lionel wrote:


And that the minority group I've defined as potential ''failures'' to the Stevens System probably possess an upper lip structure that can not improve much in resonance, AT LEAST not when playing ON TRADITIONALLY SIZED (trumpet) MOUTHPIECES!!!

This is my own theory and a pretty good one if I may add at the risk of appearing self-aggrandizing. I found this to be true because I myself just can't seem to put much sound out on a normal sized trumpet mouthpiece.


Could be also an indication that there is something fundamentally wrong with either the Stevens-Costello system or with your interpretation of that system.
BTW I don't know any player (except you), failure, average, good or even top notch who can't play on a normal sized mouthpiece, which makes my point stronger.


Well, your assessment is wrong. Or at least inaccurate. Although on the surface it may seem a reasonable appearing point. And at times, I've even considered this possibility myself. However, we also know that some of our ancient clarino trumpet players (like in the time of JSB Bach) did use some huge mouthpieces. Like ''cookie-cutter'' types more appropriate for those F pitched horns and lower register horns of today. Yet the upper registers of these long-deceased trumpet players was unparalleled even by today's respected performers. So by just observing history alone, we can discount your theory. However, we can also observe more recent exceptions to your claims. These I'll get to in a bit.

Take note: If the principles discovered by Roy Stevens were valid in the year of his death in 1988? Then these principles most certainly would have applied in the year 1790 as well. We simply don't possess any recordings of these historical ''scream players'' work and for obvious reasons. Physics is physics. Such universal laws don't disappear for any reason, and especially not due to the mere passage of time. The moon revolved around the Earth back in 1790 just as it does today.

So your objection is not completely grounded in history. Further my words concerning traditional ''stock mouthpieces'' were probably a less than perfect description. I ought to have said something like ''the great majority of stock mouthpieces can not be used by SOME persons on the forward jaw embouchure''.

However, somebody somewhere will always object to something on the internet. My suggestion to you would be to READ THE STEVENS-COSTELLO book. Then you might be in a position to comment on the physics of the system. Similarly, a fair amount of videos have been produced by Roy Roman, the great lead trumpet player. He who pretty much carried on promoting the Stevens method long after the old man passed away. Roman also used a mouthpiece much bigger than those used by our current great lead players. According to a conversation that I had with Dr William Moriarty (the actual editor of the Stevens method) he said the Roy Roman ''Used a Bach 1C mouthpiece for all his high note work'' And speaking of huge mouthpieces?

We also know that Edward Tarr, (1936 - 2020) one of the 20th & 21st century's most well recognized Classical music high note and Natural Trumpet players used a monstrously sized mouthpiece. He even had it stocked by and described by Reynold Schilke himself. This was the ''Schilke 24, Tarr Model''. An ''artist model''.

I've never seen one of these myself but I did at one time possess the somewhat smaller Schilke 22 and lemme tell ya. Hey, it was big enough. In fact, it actually dwarfed the Bach 1!! Not the Bach 1C but the actual Bach 1 (One). So with the Tarr model being some 20% or even larger than most stock pieces? This would tend to discount your rebuttal. Yes, people have played HUGE pieces. The more appropriate question could be,

''WHY did people use these pieces''? Or better yet,

''Is there a set of physical principles that any serious trumpet player could apply that would eventually result in them developing the complete range of the instrument''? (ith or without custom-sized mouthpieces)?

Stevens asked the question and felt confident in his solution. He was also greatly rewarded with the payments made by many trumpet players seeking his tutelage and advice. I am presenting what I strongly believe is a rational explanation for the failures of some of his trumpet students. And if I complete my own embouchure change, which seems to be improving quite well? Then I would submit that this is at least some additional proof of my exception. After 20 months I am now playing publicly with a fair amount of confidence albeit not with quite the same authority that I once had prior to my dental injury from almost exactly three years ago today.

This however is to be expected. As when I began this method in late Nov, 2019 I was a raw beginner once again. At least from the perspective of embouchure. The only difference was that my new embouchure was being put together without any limitation in range. This didn't immediately give me a commanding G/High C, but heck I didn't even begin to develop that note (on my former embouchure) until I'd been playing six years or so.

Seen from this perspective? This system is improving at an amazing rate. The main problems I have with it are personal. I sometimes have unreasonable expectations. This is not so unusual because I really miss being able to blow lead, as I was once pretty good at. However, if I am patient? I have absolutely no doubt but that my new embouchure will eventually surpass my former ''High G chops''.

This current experience works much like a time machine. I am very serious about this! As at one time I used to struggle to get above the staff. Like back when I was only twelve years old. And today I am a developing trumpet player once again. All of the fears and joys that occurred in my chops from way back in the day are happening all over again. Example,

I vividly recall the time when I first performed an effective ''Doit''. This is a perfect upwards smear that doesn't require using a half valve condition. A note that starts say on the tuning note and then slides way up into the stratosphere but without hearing any intervals in between. This happened when I was about fifteen or sixteen. How I did it back then was by ''poochng'' a little more upper lip into the mouthpiece. So naturally, I wanted to develop this same ability on my new embouchure. And yet until recently I simply couldn't do it. This is because a young embouchure needs TIME in order to develop.

The same thing applies to a ''limited'' embouchure too. As most people who play on dysfunctional chop settings will improve too. Even though I once had an outstanding High G? I STILL had a ''limited embouchure''. It's just that sooner or later they will almost certainly develop a ceiling in their register. However just this past week I've finally begun playing some impressive ''Doits''. An exciting condition. Because I know from experience that this ability is one of the ''mile-markers'' indicating that I'm on the right track.
_________________
"Check me if I'm wrong Sandy but if I kill all the golfers they're gonna lock me up & throw away the key"!

Carl Spackler (aka Bill Murray, 1980).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Shaft
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 19 Sep 2006
Posts: 974

PostPosted: Tue Aug 10, 2021 5:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In 2004 Clint McLaughlin taught me the Stevens method and we blended it with some lip curl. We made a video series that shows development as it was happening. https://www.bbtrumpet.com/courses/view/60bb7c69694c7

A few times reading through the Costello Stevens method book helped to engrain the fundamentals and they were plenty of a-ha moments along the way.

Jaw position, space in between the teeth, masseter muscle along with the other ones in the face.

I’m not seeing anyone has to go and spend $25 to watch the development as it was happening all those years ago. There may be some useful things that you may glean from watching it; However if anybody would like to DM me and talk about it I would be happy to answer questions the best that I can.

Lionel appears to be on track in a good way. It’s been nice to read his account of the process along with all the information that he shares. It’s really nice to be able to witness the development as we read the updates here.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
JayKosta
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 24 Dec 2018
Posts: 3276
Location: Endwell NY USA

PostPosted: Tue Aug 10, 2021 6:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My very limited understanding of C-S embouchure mechanics is that it's not significantly different than other 'standard methods'.

The MAJOR difference in the C-S Method seems to be its immediate use of high pitch production - and the embouchure mechanics that are used to accomplish those pitches.

I'd appreciate it if anyone could briefly list ANY aspect of C-S embouchure mechanics that are significantly different from mainstream 'good embouchure' technique.
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Irving
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 11 Feb 2003
Posts: 1884

PostPosted: Tue Aug 10, 2021 6:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lionel I can corroborate the use of huge mouthpieces by one Baroque player, Friedemann Immer. When he showed me his mouthpiece MANY years ago, I couldn't believe it. It looked like an alto trombone mouthpiece. It would be unplayable for any modern trumpet player. That is the mouthpiece that he played the Brandenburg on his natural trumpet. He is a very large man, around 7 ft tall. But the large mouthpiece must have aided him, otherwise why would he have used it?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
steve0930
Veteran Member


Joined: 07 May 2018
Posts: 186

PostPosted: Tue Aug 10, 2021 6:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Lionel appears to be on track in a good way. It’s been nice to read his account of the process along with all the information that he shares. It’s really nice to be able to witness the development as we read the updates here.


Hear!Hear!
_________________
My Number 1 supporter
http://langdons.com/images/langdon-image.jpg
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Shaft
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 19 Sep 2006
Posts: 974

PostPosted: Tue Aug 10, 2021 7:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JayKosta wrote:
I'd appreciate it if anyone could briefly list ANY aspect of C-S embouchure mechanics that are significantly different from mainstream 'good embouchure' technique.


I felt as though it made sense and fit with sound fundamentals as well.
It seemed to me that some peoples hangup was the fact that certain things were strict and had to be adhered to.

If a person wanted to play with a huge overbite or a huge underbite that would violate some of the laws of physics that Stevens was saying had to be a part of the system to make it work.

I personally spent many months just walking around with my jaw forward so that it would be lined up and I just look at it like an exercise like a physical isometric type of thing. So that was an adjustment that I needed to make to make the system work for me. But once again like you said a lot of people just see that as good fundamental mechanics. Having the teeth aligned up and down. Obviously not mandatory to be able to play the trumpet but definitely part of what he considered to be a fixed law as to have certain alignment.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
delano
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 18 Jan 2009
Posts: 3118
Location: The Netherlands

PostPosted: Tue Aug 10, 2021 9:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

deleted

Last edited by delano on Fri Aug 13, 2021 1:27 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Irving
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 11 Feb 2003
Posts: 1884

PostPosted: Tue Aug 10, 2021 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The times I have heard Mr.Immer play, he tended to play very lightly, not forcing at all, and generally playing pretty softly. I don't understand how such a big mouthpiece accommodates that kind of playing. Obviously, it works for him.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
steve0930
Veteran Member


Joined: 07 May 2018
Posts: 186

PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2021 11:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Shaft

Quote:
In 2004 Clint McLaughlin taught me the Stevens method and we blended it with some lip curl. We made a video series that shows development as it was happening. https://www.bbtrumpet.com/courses/view/60bb7c69694c7


Thanks for this heads up and I bought the material. I thought it was jolly good. Don't want to give the game away - Pop's livelihood for all I know - but what I personally took from this is "less is more" . I'll be returning to the video examples provided in the days ahead..

cheers and stay safe - steve-in-helsinki
_________________
My Number 1 supporter
http://langdons.com/images/langdon-image.jpg
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Rod Haney
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 22 Aug 2015
Posts: 937

PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2021 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JayKosta wrote:
My very limited understanding of C-S embouchure mechanics is that it's not significantly different than other 'standard methods'.

The MAJOR difference in the C-S Method seems to be its immediate use of high pitch production - and the embouchure mechanics that are used to accomplish those pitches.

I'd appreciate it if anyone could briefly list ANY aspect of C-S embouchure mechanics that are significantly different from mainstream 'good embouchure' technique.


Jay I disagree with you strongly as to the MAJOR difference between SC and other methods. Actually the use of high notes and palm exercises is ONLY to test the correct usage of his 2 aperture system. In my novice opinion the 2 apertures are the nugget of gold in his approach. Everything I see in the method is to keep the airway open appropriate to the speed of air, and to keep the lips centered between them. The jaw forward action in setup will help when blowing into the upper portions of the cup but can be assisted in adjusting horn position.

I played too far up on the upper lip and this adjustment with distances of teeth and lips aligned in center IMMEDIATELY improved my range 2 tones with more resonance and volume but decreased effort. If you get nothing out of the method but the 2 apertures and can get them to be habit, all will improve. All the other stuff (excluding jaw movement) is covered thoroughly in many other methods.
Rod
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Shaft
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 19 Sep 2006
Posts: 974

PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2021 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

steve0930 wrote:
Hi Shaft


Hi Steve, glad its useful for you.

If you have any questions of me
I do not want to hijack the thread
so feel free to DM if you’d like.

Cheers


Re: Rod’s post -

Stevens & 2 embouchures.
I will say that I use one embouchure throughout the entire range.
There is no switching embouchures on a certain note or anything.
If that was something mentioned in the text of his method,
do not recall ever doing anything based on two set ups.

Air stream direction
Personally I aim my airstream dead center into the hole of the mouthpiece.

But as I said in the previous post
Pops and I blended some lip curl with the Stevens method
I also use a lip buzzing style set up akin to perhaps Rafael Mendez

We are all different but these are all principles
that Pops and I worked on from 2001-2006
Then a few phone comversations over the years since.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
JayKosta
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 24 Dec 2018
Posts: 3276
Location: Endwell NY USA

PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2021 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rod Haney wrote:
... Actually the use of high notes and palm exercises is ONLY to test the correct usage of his 2 aperture system. In my novice opinion the 2 apertures are the nugget of gold in his approach. ...

-------------------------
Rod, thanks for the comments!

It's likely that I don't know enough detail about S-C .

I thought the '2 aperture' system was the coordinated control of the teeth opening and the actual lip aperture supported by those teeth. To me, that seems quite 'standard' in embouchure mechanics. But perhaps S-C describes it in more detail and places more emphasis on it in the S-C system.

My thoughts about the 'high notes and palm exercises' are that they serve as examples and training for early production of those pitches. Basically to demonstrate that it IS possible to play high, and to avoid early development of embouchure habits for lower notes that inhibit later high note production.
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Rod Haney
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 22 Aug 2015
Posts: 937

PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2021 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shaft wrote:
steve0930 wrote:
Hi Shaft


Hi Steve, glad its useful for you.

If you have any questions of me
I do not want to hijack the thread
so feel free to DM if you’d like.

Cheers


Re: Rod’s post -

Stevens & 2 embouchures.
I will say that I use one embouchure throughout the entire range.
There is no switching embouchures on a certain note or anything.
If that was something mentioned in the text of his method,
do not recall ever doing anything based on two set ups.

Air stream direction
Personally I aim my airstream dead center into the hole of the mouthpiece.

But as I said in the previous post
Pops and I blended some lip curl with the Stevens method
I also use a lip buzzing style set up akin to perhaps Rafael Mendez

We are all different but these are all principles
that Pops and I worked on from 2001-2006
Then a few phone comversations over the years since.


Shaft
I’m not talking about using 2 embouchure s to get full range, but his approach that the teeth form one embouchure (maybe aperture is a better more descriptive word) (from 1/8 “ to 3/8”) to help regulate the flow needed thru the teeth to the lips. The second is the lip embouchure which is to stay centered between the teeth. The standard teeth opening setting for middle notes is 1/4”, high notes by closing teeth incrementally to no more than 1/8”, inverse for low notes. The standard lip aperture is between the teeth opening centered into the MP. Bobby shew told me about thinking of higher notes coming from thoughts of directing the air to the top of the cup, as well as being able to tilt the horn if needed.
Sorry if my earlier post was confusing. I still feel this positioning is a key to free play.
Rod
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Shaft
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 19 Sep 2006
Posts: 974

PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2021 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You’re good. That makes sense.
I do recall the teeth opening being mentioned
and something that I worked on as well.
In my case the tendency was to have them too closed
due to concentrating on lip to lip.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> High Range Development All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group