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High A on British Brass Band style short model cornets


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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2021 1:28 am    Post subject: High A on British Brass Band style short model cornets Reply with quote

Hi

My experience with short model cornets is that there is often a resistance mode somewhere. I played a Bach 184ML for many years, and my Bach cornet had the known issue of the high C not centering properly, and you having to lip over a resistance node.

Although known to be a greater issue on the Yamaha Maestro, the high A on my Yamaha Xeno is not the greatest, and colleagues report the same on their Besson Sovereigns and Prestiges.

It is not that the top A is hard to play, or anything like that, rather that it doesn't slot as nicely as the rest of the notes. As a comparison, the high Bb, B, C and my full range above high C, all slot just fine.

The A is fine, and you'd probably never hear it, but although I don't have a habit of splitting notes or pitching above or below, on the rare occasions, I do it, it is always on the A, which just doesn't centre as well. Otherwise it is fine.

I'm not sure why it should bother me now, as I've happily played this cornet since I bought it used in either Jan 2013 or 2014, but I was rehearsing something the other day, with multiple large interval jumps up to the A, and I was particularly aware on that occasion, that this A is a bit of a pain.

My understanding is that in the case of the Yamaha Maestro, it was to do with the mounting position of the 1st slide trigger. I thought that Yamaha had addressed this in the Xeno. Maybe they have, because the trigger mounting is different, but it is years since I owned a Maestro, and I can't really remember how the centering of the high A compared to my Xeno.

We had a player join us for a blow the other week, and he had a Maestro issued by his brass band. He reckons that the high A is so bad, that he usually plays it with the 3rd valve. Maybe he inadvertently brought my top A to my attention.

Anyway, it is no big deal, but over the years, has anyone come up with a solution to this issue. It may just be psychological, but I always think that adjusting the tension of the screws on the 1st slide trigger and mounting, make a difference,

I'll have to experiment further in this regard, but I just wondered if over the years, anyone had come up with any reason for this issue, way of solving it, without compensating for it whilst playing etc.

All the best

Lou
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ayryq
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2021 3:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No answers, but the high A on my Yamaha Neo is exactly as you describe. It's easy to split and has a very "narrow" slot. I'm newer to the cornet and I think it may be worsened by the deep mouthpiece I'm using (Curry BBC), but I haven't found a reliable way around it yet. It's not that it's out of tune and I'm missing the pitch center (I don't think!). It's more like it doesn't really have a center, and "in tune" is very close to the line to drop to G.
In any case it's a note I have to focus practice on, as in fast passages or large leaps it will occasionally either sound cracked or split, or a G will come out in its place.

If someone has an easy suggestion it would alleviate the single annoyance I have with this otherwise-excellent instrument.
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2021 5:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ayryq wrote:
No answers, but the high A on my Yamaha Neo is exactly as you describe. It's easy to split and has a very "narrow" slot.

Hi ayryq

Interesting that the Neo also has this issue, but I'm obviously sorry that you are experiencing it. If it is any consolation, colleague's with Besson Sovereigns and Prestiges, report the same.


I'm newer to the cornet and I think it may be worsened by the deep mouthpiece I'm using (Curry BBC),

Maybe, I don't know, as I haven't experimented with different mouthpiece depths. Personally however I am using something shallower than the Curry BBC, and the issue is still apparent.

but I haven't found a reliable way around it yet. It's not that it's out of tune and I'm missing the pitch center (I don't think!). It's more like it doesn't really have a center, and "in tune" is very close to the line to drop to G.

It is difficult to ascertain, but it seems to have a narrow slot, and doesn't seem to centre very well within it. I can't really put it any better in words.

In any case it's a note I have to focus practice on, as in fast passages or large leaps it will occasionally either sound cracked or split, or a G will come out in its place.

Yes, I completely agree.

If someone has an easy suggestion it would alleviate the single annoyance I have with this otherwise-excellent instrument.

I again completely agree, and I started this thread to ask the exact same thing.

Thanks very much

Best wishes

Lou


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Richard III
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2021 6:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've encountered this many times before. Usually it is cured with a mouthpiece change. The players who've had this problem were playing mouthpieces that were too small in bore. Switch to a more open mouthpiece and the problem was gone. Have you tried this?
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Subtropical and Subpar
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2021 7:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting; the A below high C is quite finicky on my not-Shepherd's-crooked Conn Connstellation 38A cornet on any mouthpiece deeper than a C cup. Easy to split or whiff on. With my shallower mouthpieces (Schilke 14A4x, Bach 1C) it's not even a thought in my head. To infinity and beyond with those mouthpieces. But with my deeper mouthpieces (Monette B11, Yamaha David King) it's a looong way from G above the staff to A above the staff. Heck, even from A flat to A it's a bit of a chasm. I guess I'm glad to know I'm not the only one?
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2021 7:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Richard III wrote:
I've encountered this many times before. Usually it is cured with a mouthpiece change. The players who've had this problem were playing mouthpieces that were too small in bore. Switch to a more open mouthpiece and the problem was gone. Have you tried this?


Hi RichardIII

Thanks very much. Mouthpiece bore size is a possibility, and one that I haven’t considered, thanks. However ayryq is reporting this issue with a Curry 3BBC, which has a 4.07mm bore, bigger than the 3.98mm bore of the supplied Yamaha 16E, so I wonder is mouthpiece throat size is the whole issue.

All the best

Lou
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Trumpets:
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- James R New Custom 3Cs
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2021 8:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi again RichardIII

Do you literally mean throat size, or do you just mean a more open mouthpiece overall?

If so, backbore size could be a factor or cup shape/depth.

All the best

Lou
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Kanstul F Besson C
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- James R New Custom 3Cs
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Richard III
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2021 9:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Louise Finch wrote:
Richard III wrote:
I've encountered this many times before. Usually it is cured with a mouthpiece change. The players who've had this problem were playing mouthpieces that were too small in bore. Switch to a more open mouthpiece and the problem was gone. Have you tried this?


Hi RichardIII

Thanks very much. Mouthpiece bore size is a possibility, and one that I haven’t considered, thanks. However ayryq is reporting this issue with a Curry 3BBC, which has a 4.07mm bore, bigger than the 3.98mm bore of the supplied Yamaha 16E, so I wonder is mouthpiece throat size is the whole issue.

All the best

Lou


I've always felt the Curry BBC to play smaller in terms of bore. And I use bore probably the same as others use the term throat.

I've also felt the Yamaha E mouthpieces to be barely large enough.

I know you've got a Wick no letter laying around. What happens when you play the cornet with that one?
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TKSop
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2021 9:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It could still be something in the trigger assembly - I've known more than one cornet play much better without the trigger...
If you're mechanically inclined you could try removing it yourself and see if you notice a difference - if you do, a good instrument builder could easily modify the slides and add a ring or shunt.


Interestingly, last time I saw Tom Hutchinson in person (admittedly a few years now) he had a heavy cap on first valve only (Prestige) and standard caps on 2+3 - perhaps vibrations from the trigger needed damping, or perhaps he just likes it that way?


I wouldn't think mouthpiece changes are going to make the problem completely go away... might help a little bit, but then it's a bunch more practice to get acclimated to it properly...
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Brassnose
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2021 9:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did you ever try to play the high A with 3 instead of 12? Solved a lot of my note splitting problems, though you’ll have to watch intonation.
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dmamazon
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2021 9:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow, what a post! The "High A on a British Cornet" was a topic that came up quite frequently in the last 6 months in our brass band. Two new, young, strong guys in the front row always were joking about it...and I've always known that note to be a terrible slotting note. It was and still is an ongoing joke between everyone. "That's as hard a high A on Cornet" lol
I own a Besson Prestige, and either play it with an Alliance Richard Marshall RM1 or a Wick 2(no letter). Pretty much as big as equipment can get and it still really stinks to play that note. I haven't found anything to make it easier...and I have used 3rd valve many times which is slightly easier but still not good...and it doesn't sound as good either.
I've also played/owned the Yamaha Xeno, Getzen 3850, and a Besson Sovereign. The Xeno was an oddball...the A was hard to hit AND flat! The Getzen was the same as the Besson Prestige..maybe slightly easier. The Sovereign was exactly the same as the Prestige.
The only horn I have found that DID slot that note well was an Eclipse Cornet that one of our cornets in the brass band bought about 2 years ago.
Maybe it's just the curse of the Shepherd's Crook? I think with the collective hive mind going now about this issue we might have a chance at finding any solution....anything will do even small lol:)
I'm interested to see if the Oldroyd Cardinal has the same issue. If not I'm buying one lol.

Dave
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JazzFluegel
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2021 9:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Louise Finch wrote:
Hi again RichardIII

Do you literally mean throat size, or do you just mean a more open mouthpiece overall?

If so, backbore size could be a factor or cup shape/depth.

All the best

Lou


In my experience it is almost always the throat/venturi size, not the cup nor backbore. Usual fix is to open the throat one step or less at a time. A DIY method is to get superfine emery paper, cut a 1-2” square, roll a very small cone to fit, insert, twist for awhile, clean, blow some scales, repeat until problem is gone.
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Dale Proctor
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2021 11:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I’ve experienced the high A problem on a few of my horns (cornet and trumpet), and just resort to using the 3rd valve to make it more secure (and usually better in tune, too). Mouthpiece choice does seem to make a difference, but if I’m comfortable with a certain mouthpiece configuration, I’m not prone to switching mouthpieces to cure one problem note when there’s an easy alternate fingering workaround.
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2021 1:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Subtropical and Subpar wrote:
Interesting; the A below high C is quite finicky on my not-Shepherd's-crooked Conn Connstellation 38A cornet on any mouthpiece deeper than a C cup. Easy to split or whiff on. With my shallower mouthpieces (Schilke 14A4x, Bach 1C) it's not even a thought in my head. To infinity and beyond with those mouthpieces. But with my deeper mouthpieces (Monette B11, Yamaha David King) it's a looong way from G above the staff to A above the staff. Heck, even from A flat to A it's a bit of a chasm. I guess I'm glad to know I'm not the only one?


Hi Subtropical and Subpar

Thank you very much for sharing.

Very much appreciated.

All the best

Lou
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Trumpets:
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Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2021 1:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Richard III wrote:
Louise Finch wrote:
Richard III wrote:
I've encountered this many times before. Usually it is cured with a mouthpiece change. The players who've had this problem were playing mouthpieces that were too small in bore. Switch to a more open mouthpiece and the problem was gone. Have you tried this?


Hi RichardIII

Thanks very much. Mouthpiece bore size is a possibility, and one that I haven’t considered, thanks. However ayryq is reporting this issue with a Curry 3BBC, which has a 4.07mm bore, bigger than the 3.98mm bore of the supplied Yamaha 16E, so I wonder is mouthpiece throat size is the whole issue.

All the best

Lou


Hi RichardIII

I've always felt the Curry BBC to play smaller in terms of bore. And I use bore probably the same as others use the term throat.

Thanks very much. Yes, it does sound like you are using the term bore in the way that I'd use the word throat, but it doesn't matter. I have a Curry 3BBC., but don't use it, and prefer the Curry 3TC. I'm just going by the description on the Curry website of the BBC cup having a 4.07mm bore.

I've also felt the Yamaha E mouthpieces to be barely large enough.

Ok

I know you've got a Wick no letter laying around. What happens when you play the cornet with that one?

I haven't actually. I've previously borrowed TKSop's Denis Wick 2 I believe. I have a Denis Wick 3B. I'm sure that the high A is the same as on my regular mouthpiece, but I could try it again I suppose, but it would only be for curiosity purposes. I completely agree with Dale's post. I have no intention on changing a tried and tested mouthpiece that I've played for 16 years, for one note.

All the best

Lou

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Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
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- Kanstul Custom 3Cs
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2021 1:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TKSop wrote:
It could still be something in the trigger assembly - I've known more than one cornet play much better without the trigger...
If you're mechanically inclined you could try removing it yourself and see if you notice a difference - if you do, a good instrument builder could easily modify the slides and add a ring or shunt.

Hi TKSop

Thanks very much

I'm convinced that it is something in the trigger assembly, as adjusting the tension of the screws seems to make a small difference, but this could of course just be psychological

Regarding removing the trigger? No I'm definitely not mechanically minded.


Interestingly, last time I saw Tom Hutchinson in person (admittedly a few years now) he had a heavy cap on first valve only (Prestige) and standard caps on 2+3 - perhaps vibrations from the trigger needed damping, or perhaps he just likes it that way?

Interesting, could be worth trying.

I wouldn't think mouthpiece changes are going to make the problem completely go away... might help a little bit, but then it's a bunch more practice to get acclimated to it properly...

I completely agree, thanks.

Take care and best wishes

Lou

_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2021 3:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dmamazon wrote:
Wow, what a post! The "High A on a British Cornet" was a topic that came up quite frequently in the last 6 months in our brass band. Two new, young, strong guys in the front row always were joking about it...and I've always known that note to be a terrible slotting note. It was and still is an ongoing joke between everyone. "That's as hard a high A on Cornet" lol

Hi Dave

I completely agree. It is indeed a known issue, and thanks very much for sharing the experiences in your band.


I own a Besson Prestige, and either play it with an Alliance Richard Marshall RM1 or a Wick 2(no letter). Pretty much as big as equipment can get and it still really stinks to play that note.

Interesting, thanks.

I haven't found anything to make it easier...and I have used 3rd valve many times which is slightly easier but still not good...and it doesn't sound as good either.

Again, interesting, thanks. I don't like the sound or intonation of 3rd valve A, and would personally only use it for quick changes from Ab to A.

I've also played/owned the Yamaha Xeno, Getzen 3850, and a Besson Sovereign. The Xeno was an oddball...the A was hard to hit AND flat!

Thanks very much.

The Getzen was the same as the Besson Prestige..maybe slightly easier. The Sovereign was exactly the same as the Prestige.

The only horn I have found that DID slot that note well was an Eclipse Cornet that one of our cornets in the brass band bought about 2 years ago.
Maybe it's just the curse of the Shepherd's Crook?

The Bach ML has a very good high A, the same issue is just on the high C instead. Although you play high A a lot more, so it is more often a nuisance, I think if you play good quality Bbs, Bs and Cs above, then at least any issues with the high A are less likely to appear to be owing to the player lol. With the high C issue of the Bach 184ML, players who are not aware of this issue with the Bach 184ML, probably think that you don't have a strong and consistent high C, and there is not much opportunity in brass band literature to demonstrate that you have good quality notes above.

I played the Bach 184ML for around 20 years before changing to the Xeno, and learned to live with the high C issue, like I've learned to live with the high A issue of the Xeno. I hope that my bandmaster, colleagues and the audience have never noticed.


I think with the collective hive mind going now about this issue we might have a chance at finding any solution....anything will do even small lol:)

Let's hope so.

I'm interested to see if the Oldroyd Cardinal has the same issue. If not I'm buying one lol.

I briefly had a go on the Oldroyd Cardinal that a colleague in my previous band had just bought, not long before I changed to my current band. I don't remember what the high A was like. I still dep for the band from time to time, so will ask her next time I see her.

My impression of the Oldroyd Cardinal from the brief go I had on it, was that it would be a cornet that I'd be happy to own, and that it played the most similarly to my Xeno out of the non Yamaha cornets I've tried I'm less keen on the Geneva Symphony.

Dave

All the best

Lou

_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2021 3:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JazzFluegel wrote:
Louise Finch wrote:
Hi again RichardIII

Do you literally mean throat size, or do you just mean a more open mouthpiece overall?

If so, backbore size could be a factor or cup shape/depth.

All the best

Lou


In my experience it is almost always the throat/venturi size, not the cup nor backbore. Usual fix is to open the throat one step or less at a time. A DIY method is to get superfine emery paper, cut a 1-2” square, roll a very small cone to fit, insert, twist for awhile, clean, blow some scales, repeat until problem is gone.


Hi JazzFluegel

Thank you very much.

All the best

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2021 3:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dale Proctor wrote:
I’ve experienced the high A problem on a few of my horns (cornet and trumpet), and just resort to using the 3rd valve to make it more secure (and usually better in tune, too). Mouthpiece choice does seem to make a difference, but if I’m comfortable with a certain mouthpiece configuration, I’m not prone to switching mouthpieces to cure one problem note when there’s an easy alternate fingering workaround.


Hi

Thanks very much Dale. I've never experienced this issue on trumpet. As a matter of interest, have the trumpets with this issue also had 1st valve triggers? My Bach 37 has a factory fitted 1st valve trigger, and doesn't have this issue at all, but I wouldn't have expected it to anyhow, since the Bach 184ML has it on the high C rather than high A (my Bach 37 trumpet doesn't have it at all).

I completely agree regarding not switching mouthpieces to cure one problem note. I have absolutely no intention of changing my mouthpiece.

All the best

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2021 3:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brassnose wrote:
Did you ever try to play the high A with 3 instead of 12? Solved a lot of my note splitting problems, though you’ll have to watch intonation.


Hi Brassnose

Thank you very much.

No, not really, as like you say, the intonation needs watching, and also the sound is not as nice. I'd rather put up with the extra care required with the 12 top A.

Thanks very much anyhow

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs
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