Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2021 4:45 pm Post subject: Locked Vs Unlocked Embouchures
This is a concept that is probably better understood through example rather than through definition. At least initially. So let me give you an example of an ''unlocked'' set of chops. The best trumpet player who I ever observed this phenomenon in was Satchmo.
Louis Armstrong's trumpet tone was a seemingly direct extension of his own singing voice. His sound was so relaxed and pure (on the horn) that I get the feeling that the man almost could have played a gig with just one valve. As he was so easily able to adjust the pitch with or without depressing the valves. Incredible! When listening to him play a ballad I often hear him turning a vibrato into a lip trill. The tone oscillates slightly as a vibrato does, but he gradually increases the width of the tone variance. Until he is actually performing a lip trill or ''Shake'' as we call it. Armstrong was also the master of the upwards and downwards glissandos. All of these are a facet of what I like to look at as an ''Unlocked'' embouchure.
DIsplays of this ability are usually found in the Jazz or Commercial idiom. You don't hear these tricks applied in The Hummel. This isn't to say that Classical trumpets all have ''Locked'' tones. My college trumpet prof had a powerful set of chops and was easily able to perform the same vibrato to lip trill example. In fact I even observed him ''trilling'' a Low C up to second-line G JUST BY SHAKING HIS HORN BACK & FORTH! That is hard to do! Shaking a perfect fifth and like it was nothing.
Incidentally, this reminds me of a classic Roy Stevens teaching technique. He would start all his students on a High C. Played softly and with the chops placed in a specific manner and after considerable study of the approach beforehand. The horn was resting ONLY on the palm of one hand. Allowing only the weight of the instrument to create the contact pressure upon the mouthpiece. Thus creating a seal and starting the pitch as soon as air support began. The kids would then begin to oscillate the tone. Trying to move it up to the High D just a step above by adding a little more air and mildly increasing the compression of their mouth corners.
Okay some 90% of his students would then immediately fail this test! lol. As they would tighten some element of their chops. And/or throw some other part of the mouth out of position etc. However once the kid started to catch on to this somewhat complicated, but helpful technique?
He soon found that he could move any tone up or down just by adding or reducing the already mild mouthpiece contact pressure. He had then discovered how to put together an ''UNlocked Embouchure''. And with this discovery he would likely gain the complete range of the instrument. Unlike most of his peers who all had ''Locked'' embouchures.
Maynard was another cat who often sounded like he didn't need the full compliment of valves lol. And as I said displays of this technique are only rarely found within the Classical trumpet venue. Perhpas Vizutti does it every once in a while, but not in his classical charts. And yet my guess is that most Classically trained trumpet players of a professional ability are probably playing on UNlocked chops.
The difference in tone is that the ''Locked'' or ''Fixed'' embouchure sounds both pleasant and bell like, BUT has a tendency to sound like it might crack on the more challenging phrases. There eixst many good sounding, if amateur trumpet players who have this ''Locked'' tone. Usually each suffering from range and endurance limitations. And having no clue as to why this is so.
Meanwhile, the ''UNlocked'' voice is more flowery. It can obtain volume but it has a singular, very EASY tone. Again, think Satchmo. Then even if the trumpet player does make a mistake it is usually a damned good miss, or even unnoticeable. _________________ "Check me if I'm wrong Sandy but if I kill all the golfers they're gonna lock me up & throw away the key"!
Joined: 14 Jun 2007 Posts: 1885 Location: San Diego, CA
Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2021 4:57 pm Post subject:
My teachers both used this approach.As little pressure as possible, and everything controlled by air and mind. It takes a lot of face time to maintain it, but it lends enormous potential. _________________ BKA! Mic Gillette was my mentor and friend.
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Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3276 Location: Endwell NY USA
Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2021 6:10 am Post subject:
What 'mechanics' do you think are involved in 'locking' an embouchure?
And what physical 'controls' need to be used to improve the situation? _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
Joined: 24 Dec 2003 Posts: 1473 Location: OHare area
Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2021 8:21 am Post subject:
I suggest reading as many of Bobby Shew's writings as you can find.
In one of his writings, he had the best players in England, orchestral and other genres, have the force scientifically measured when they played a high C. The lowest pressure measured was 3 kilograms and the highest was 10 kilograms!
When amateurs were measured, there was basically no difference.
Basically the theory that expert players use less pressure in utterly false.
The pros learned to handle it.
What that study and writing determined was that playing high C or double high C without reasonable pressure is not possible. If the horn is on a table, it will slide away with very little pressure as will it suspended or held in a palm.
He also notes that if you study with a teacher who was not taught properly, that teacher will continue the improper teaching he/she was taught.
Shew has spent his whole life studying and learning what is sense and nonsense. You should all know what a magnificent player he was and still is.
R. Tomasek
Joined: 14 Jan 2005 Posts: 7769 Location: Des Moines, IA area
Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2021 10:35 am Post subject:
After reading and re-reading the original post I'm still somewhat confused as to what is being proposed.
Maybe it's just me, but when I play a "lip trill" as described without actually moving my wrist for the "shake" effect, my tongue is varying the pitches, not my lips. If you need further explanation, read some of the text in Colin Advanced Lip Flexibilities. I don't have the book with me as I post, but it is well-explained. Similar explanation in Irons "24 Embouchure...", Daniels "Special Studies...", among many other sources.
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3276 Location: Endwell NY USA
Posted: Sat Aug 28, 2021 5:56 am Post subject:
kalijah wrote:
Moving the tongue helps facilitate this type trill but the lips are changing as well, otherwise the pitch doesn't change.
-----------------------------
I agree - and I think there is more to it than just 'lip tension' changing.
The 'lip changes' might also include -
Lip tension
Mouthpiece rim pressure upper/lower amount due to jaw movement
Teeth alignment
Amount and location of lip tissue exposed to air stream
It's probably not necessary to feel and control each precise item, but 'allow them to happen' and learn what works for you. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
Joined: 31 Dec 2015 Posts: 898 Location: California
Posted: Mon Aug 30, 2021 4:37 pm Post subject:
It takes lots of repetitions to build the embouchure. Like a shooting form in basketball, breaking down the mechanics can be helpful for someone who is having problems with their shot, and they may need to change their form by figuring out what part of the body does what. However, it can only be engrained from daily drilling. Like Jay said you have to allow them to happen while being focused on the activity. It's not 100% tongue nor is it 100% lip doing a lip trill, because our bodies are connected. When we are walking or running, our arms move even though they aren't the main catalyst. Everything is connected.
I think from my perspective Lionels point is that playing freely to the upper register MUST Be built on a foundation that allows these things to be ‘discovered’. The point about locked or unlocked will never be explored unless you lock down the starting point, delivering the air to the vibrating surface in the most efficient and unblocked manner. You will never play a dbl. with volume blowing air thru your teeth. Lionel has made much progress by sheer force of will, I know because I’m trying to pick it up by reading the same material and it’s a difficult thing for those who had good skill in playing but lacked the hi g and up range. You must have a definite drive to pursue this if you have already invested time in learning all the other skills trumpet demands. For me just getting some of the benefits of the 2 aperture system has taken 6 months to feel right but the benefits are large and I’ve personally seen no downside.
Someone mentioned Bobby Shew earlier and although Bobby isn’t a student of SC he has some tricks for jaw forward effect and giving upper lip room it needs. Bobby is a big help and his advice rides well with SC.
Lionel should explain this a bit as my impression may be off from his point. To me unlocked or unfurled is allowing the upper lip enough pressure to seal but not enough to lock the lip in one place. Jaw forward and horn tilt allow the lower lip to take the pressure and allow the upper to ride he air. Is that your point Lionel?
Rd
What 'mechanics' do you think are involved in 'locking' an embouchure?
And what physical 'controls' need to be used to improve the situation?
Apologies for not responding sooner. Actually I was doing what I oughta be doing: ie ''practicing'' lol!
''What mechanics are involved?
Probably those who are best able to exhibit the characteristics of an ''UNlocked'' set of chops were born with plenty of really loose, fleshy lips. Maynard certainly had some fleshy lips and we all observed how large Satchmo's were too. This however is not the only physical characteristic. As Lynn N has an enormous range and great flexibility but relatively small lips.
Strangely enough, I have observed the characteristics of UNlocked chops more often on those who, like Satchmo and Maynard utilized some form of dry lip setting. Somewhere I once read a list of which high note players used dry lip combinations. Think that our forum friend, the great professional Chris LaBarbera wrote out the names. Anyway, he and I once had a discussion. As I recall he said that ''Maynard played with one dry & one wet''. Probably the upper was dry. Bill Chase, was also dry both lips. Accoring to Chris. The list read like a ''Who's Who'' of great lead players.
It was Chris's teacher Dr Reinhardt whp wrote the most about dry lip embouchure. Sometimes referring to these cats as ''squeak artists''. However there do exist some very loud high note payers who also employ dry chops.
I realize that this discussion is starting to veer off from fundamentals and morph more into a range discussion but this is not my intent. The point being that ''UNlocked'' embouchure are commonly associated with good high notes. Along with being able to blow fantastic glissandos or ''Doit's'' etc.
Incidentally: Back before my embouchure change of 2019 I played on a very much ''locked'' receded jaw embouchure. While I exhibited pretty good flexibility at the amateur level? There was no bloody way that I could ever trill a Low C to Second Line G swiftly. Not as described in my O/P and formerly done by my college prof. As good of a teacher as he was? I know realize that he really was just another naturally blessed trumpet player. As such he was unable to understand the frustrations that the rest of us have.
Recently I have decided to spend more time in the upper register of my new embouchure. This is because this area of notes is where my chops exhibit the greatest signs of freed up chops. The least locked that is. Previously I had warmed up in this area, but as my chops began to fatigue, I'd start playing lower & lower notes. This wasn't without some benefit. However my new approach is simply to REST for ten minutes and then return to high note practice. Saving my lower tone studies for another day. Or perhaps just for rehearsals.
This is because I see so much fantastic potential to the ''UN-locked'' embouchure that I simply want to give it as much encouragement as is possible. _________________ "Check me if I'm wrong Sandy but if I kill all the golfers they're gonna lock me up & throw away the key"!
After reading and re-reading the original post I'm still somewhat confused as to what is being proposed.
Maybe it's just me, but when I play a "lip trill" as described without actually moving my wrist for the "shake" effect, my tongue is varying the pitches, not my lips. If you need further explanation, read some of the text in Colin Advanced Lip Flexibilities. I don't have the book with me as I post, but it is well-explained. Similar explanation in Irons "24 Embouchure...", Daniels "Special Studies...", among many other sources.
These are conventional studies, but even still they do tend to encourage the ''loosening up'' of what I'd call a ''locked'' embouchure.
When I think of the first person I met personally who had an unlocked set of chops he really flipped me out. Said to myself, 'I want to have his chops''. Here's what he did:
The man put the valve casing directly on the palm of his hand. He began an m/f tuning note. The Concert pitch B flat or our C natural that is. Then he ascended in a near perfect glissando slowly and with little detection of what constituted a real partial (such as an E natural or G top of the staff etc) all the way up to a respectable G above Double C!!!
I had never before witnessed anyone play such an exercise in person nor heard such a high note. Back in those pre-internet days, (1974 0r so) almost no one played ''trippa'' notes. And even Cat Anderson recordings were hard to come by in stores. This fellow was a total Maynard junkie. I learned much from him but have only been able to apply his ideas in recent years. He was of course learning the Stevens-Costello system. I'm telling you the cat could slide in a near-perfect gliss up and down at will! Granted the pitches would improve a little in tone quality once he landed on an open partial. Such as C, E, G C etc. And yet he really sounded a lot like an endless trombone smear. Incredible!!
I think that that minimal contact on the lips ie ''No-pressure'' condition is part of the key to ''UN-locking'' the chops. Oddly enough most pedal tone studies tend to employ that minimal contact condition too. The student of pedal tone studies usually learns to just barely touch the mouthpiece to his lips. And this facilitates the production of tones lower than F#. Or E concert pitch that is.
Oddly enough pedal tones are considered anathema to both the Stevens-Costello and Reinhardt approaches. These being two systems with at least some crossover in ideas. Another one being that Dr Reinhardt, while not necessarily encouraging them said that ''If you really want to play high notes? Use dry lips''. Meanwhile, Stevens never condemned anyone for playing dry. My guess is that many/most of his students did play on some form of dry lips. Either one wet/one dry or both dry.
The problem that I have with Reinhardt's system is due to him not being a trumpet player. He was a trombonist. And in his main piece of writing, he declared words to the effect that
''all good trumpet players should at least have a working G above High C''.
And as a trumpet player myself? Well that just doesn't cut it. Yes, certainly many trumpet players would probably be happy as can be if they could attain a decent High G. That would eliminate many problems for them. However, for me, this wasn't good enough. And it isn't just the inability to blow the High A that is my main concern. At least in my case, it was the ungodly amount of physical energy I oncthat e required in order to play on or around my High G.
Meanwhile, on an UN-locked embouchure, the High G is almost just another note. At least at a lower volume not requiring much more physical energy than the G top of the staff an octave lower.
I'm sixty-six years old today. Trumpet embouchure did not come easily to me. I once badly stretched my larnyx while playing a High G. The nasty ''neck puff'' that Reinhard warned about. In fact, this part of his ''Encyclopedia of the Pivot System'' was the most useful part of the book for me! Also, I wore out my upper front incisor. From both age and arm pressure. This is the real danger of a ''locked'' embouchure. They do not stand up to Father Time well.
William Costello noticed this. And in Dr Bill Moriarty's fine video of 2006 we learn that Bill Costello injured himself often enough that as he aged, he could no longer recover fast enough to sustain his status as a working pro. And this was when he developed the rudiments of the Stevens-Costello Triple C Embouchure System. This was, of course before Roy Stevens took over the studio in NYC.
Now Roy had the superior analytical mind of all three. In recent times however I have begun to think that he too was limited in understanding of embouchure. This is because, in the final analysis, he was also a naturally blessed trumpet player himself! He just stuck the horn up to his chops and played on a Costello embouchure naturally. A piece of cake to him.
Where I'm standing presently is that in addition to my relatively minor struggles today, I wonder how many trumpet players really have a screwed-up embouchure? I really don't know. My guess is that it is probably many of them. That the typical evolutionary approach, while working great for clarinetists and all other instruments? Usually fails for trumpet players. _________________ "Check me if I'm wrong Sandy but if I kill all the golfers they're gonna lock me up & throw away the key"!
Joined: 25 Aug 2002 Posts: 727 Location: Asheville, NC
Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2021 4:57 am Post subject:
Lionel, I enjoy reading your posts describing your journey. It's fun to hear all the details and thoughts. That said, I wish that you would be more objective with your descriptions and approach. If you ever get the urge and means, posting video of your chops while playing would go a long way in describing what you're talking about.
As far as "locked" and "unlocked" embouchures go, I find your thoughts to be vague enough to the point of where I don't find them very useful. Can you offer a specific definition of both, describing what is physically different from the two?
The trumpet on the palm of the hand I see as being more of a stunt than anything else. It's usually done to suggest that playing high notes doesn't require so much mouthpiece pressure, but you can apply quite a bit with the trumpet on the palm. Even on Larry Meregillano's YouTube video I see what appears to be plenty of mouthpiece pressure against his lips. I guess it could be a demonstration on reduction of pressure, if that's a problem, but I see excessive mouthpiece pressure as more of a symptom of something not working correctly. Fix the real issue and the excessive pressure is usually corrected without requiring extra work.
I don't have access to the Stevens-Costello book right now, but if I recall correctly the issue I have with it is that it tries to instruct everyone to play with an upstream embouchure. This is fine, if you happen to have the anatomy that makes upstream work best, but the majority of brass players are downstream performers and many of those instructions can work against those players if taken too literally.
Your descriptions of Reinhardt's thoughts on trumpet range and wet/dry embouchure settings are about half right, but I don't know where you're getting them. Reinhardt was one of the primary sources for my dissertation, so I think I have quite a bit about what he wrote, but I don't know where those quotes you attribute to him are from. Can you cite your source more precisely?
I'm glad that you're finding success with your playing now, Lionel. Since I happen to find brass embouchure technique fascinating I would be very interested in taking a closer look at how your chops are working, if you ever are inclined to post video.
As far as "locked" and "unlocked" embouchures go, I find your thoughts to be vague enough to the point of where I don't find them very useful. Can you offer a specific definition of both, describing what is physically different from the two?
What he said ^^^
Also what I asked previously.
Quote:
By "locked" do you mean unchanging?
What is it you're under the impression is locked?
_________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Locked:
Difficulty performing lip trills and ''Doits''
Difficulty switching from lower register to the upper middle register.
Absence of an upper register.
A solid tone, but generally almost sounds kind of flat. It rings well but doesn't blend.
Difficulty in ''lipping'' a tone into tune.
Impossible to play any tone without first applying the correct valve choices. ie 1&2 for E natural and A etc.
Use of a fair amount of arm pressure while playing the upper end of the range that he does have.
Generally produces strong ''Bell Tone'' type of attacks on most articulated notes.
Unlocked:
Sounds a lot like Louis Armstrong.
Amazing agility on lip trills.
Can sustain almost any tone on any valve combination.
Great high range.
Can perform glissandos or ''Doits'' easily and even play them s-l-o-w-l-y
Tone sizzles and almost 'talks' to an audience.
It is usually found on a trumpet player who plays lots of gigs and is in much demand. From both his musician peers and the general public.
''Have you heard Lenny play that horn? Incredible'' _________________ "Check me if I'm wrong Sandy but if I kill all the golfers they're gonna lock me up & throw away the key"!
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8910 Location: Orange County, CA
Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2021 10:35 am Post subject:
I certainly have known a minority and players and approaches (Quinque comes to mind) that go much farther than typical with players being able to play any pitch regardless to the valves pressed. Actually know one guy who can play a passible Haydn on a scrap horn with valves that don't move. I've never considered that this is generally required to "unlock" all the other attributes you describe. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
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Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart
Unlocked:
Sounds a lot like Louis Armstrong.
Amazing agility on lip trills.
Can sustain almost any tone on any valve combination.
Great high range.
Can perform glissandos or ''Doits'' easily and even play them s-l-o-w-l-y
Tone sizzles and almost 'talks' to an audience.
It is usually found on a trumpet player who plays lots of gigs and is in much demand. From both his musician peers and the general public.
''Have you heard Lenny play that horn? Incredible''
Nothing wrong with a praise Louis thread - Louis was fantastic. I think you're attributing things to him that aren't reality. I don't think I've ever heard Louis do a true lip trill. I'd be very surprised to find out he *could* do a true lip trill.
By any chance did you recently watch Ken Burns' Jazz? _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Flugel
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