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Learning to Sight Transpose


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trickg
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2021 4:43 am    Post subject: Learning to Sight Transpose Reply with quote

I've finally decided to dip my toe in the water of playing in an orchestra, (just a small part-time regional orchestra) and even though I bought the C trumpet that I felt was necessary, (nothing fancy, I got a Brasspire Unicorn C trumpet, which seems to be working quite well) I'm still going to have to learn to sight transpose. I've always avoided it - in the past it was transposing from C trumpet parts with a Bb. In those instances I actually took the time to write the parts out. I also have computer software that could scan and "OCR" (so to speak) sheet music so that it could be programmatically transposed. Sight-transposing is not a skill I've ever developed.

Most of the music we're doing on this upcoming performance is played on either Bb or C with matching parts, but I have two pieces that are specifically written for F trumpet - Tchaikovsky Symphony #4 in F Minor, and the other is Danza Fantastica by Enrique Soro. There's a Bb part for the Tchaikovsky, and I read that last night, but with everyone else playing C, the voicing of my Bb wasn't quite right.

In any case, it looks like I'm going to crash-course myself into learning how to transpose. At the tender "young" age of 51. It doesn't help that I've also never really been an orchestral player, so I don't really know this repertoire at all. Fortunately my friend who got me involved is an excellent player, and he's covering Principle for all of this - at least I have him to lean on.

Does anyone have any tips, or is this just something where I need to get in the practice room and just dive in?
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zaferis
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2021 4:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jump in with both feet.
Along with learning the parts you need to play for the Orch at hand. Break out some easy etudes that you know from your Bb and play them on the C trumpet. Start with Bb to C transposition, then go for the other common ones (D trumpet, F trumpet, etc)..

I'm a very visual learner, so will, at times, write the part out by hand, transposing so that I can see it. Then continue to play off of the original.
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Don Herman rev2
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2021 4:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Disclaimer: It has been a while now and I have fallen out of practice.

Getchell, easy Arban exercises, etc. and transpose to different keys. Play it as written so you know what it sounds like, then play again in a different key. Some say to shift up one step at a time; I find that is useful to get things going, then start picking arbitrary keys out of the air and bouncing around helps. Going back to the original key now and then to keep the sound in mind is helpful to me.

At one time I made up a "cheat sheet" with a table showing all the notes in various keys. It let me pick the key signature row and slide along to the column for the horn in hand to find the transposed key, and then I could find the notes as needed. Useful learning tool, no good in a rehearsal (or performance), natch.

Many, probably most, others will have better advice I am sure.

The hard part for me was to get the sound in mind and let it guide the key signature more or less unconsciously instead of having to see a note, see the key, remember the key of the horn in hand, and translate to play the right note. It was sort of like learning Morse code; you must get to the point that you hear the sound and recognize it as a letter or word without going through the visual step of hearing, "seeing" the dots and dashes, and associating them with a character. The sound is the character. How Zen.
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Brassnose
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2021 4:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What Zaferis said. I have never needed transposition until I moved to the place I live now where there is a lot of Posaunenchor (trombone choir) tradition. These folks use Bb instruments but read concert pitch. So last year I started to teach myself reading in C, especially reading bass clef for my bass trumpet. Will take some time but I’m slowly getting there. I‘m also using a strategy that resembles Zaferis‘.
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trickg
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2021 4:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know that I can learn to do it, and the more I do it, the easier it will get.

I remember reading a post from Manny Laureano about studying with William Vacchiano at Juilliard where he talked about the fact that in his lessons, Vacciano NEVER had him playing anything that was actually written on the page - he constantly had to transpose to some weird interval or other. Then one day he had an opportunity to play a gig with Vacchiano, who all of a sudden seemed surprised that he could play quite well when he didn't have to go through the mental gymnastics of sight transposing to odd intervals. He also credited Vacchiano's toughness for preparing him to move forward in his career as an orchestral player.

I just have to remember, this is a marathon, not a sprint. It's not likely that I'm going to pick it up quickly, but if I keep after it, it will have to get better.

Don, I thought about doing what you did - creating a cheat-sheet of sorts to help me in the practice room.

I'm looking forward to this concert season though. I haven't been part of a classical ensemble for a long time, and I found myself really enjoying the experience.
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Irving
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2021 6:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some things to keep in mind:

Always be aware of what key you are in. If you are holding a Bb tpt and transposing to E, then there are 6 sharps in your transposed key. Unless there are accidentals, then play in your key.

Know your scales. This will help you to play in your transposed key.

Know what your part sounds like. Nothing is harder than trying to transpose by seeing each note and trying to figure out what note to play. If you know what your part is supposed to sound like, then half of the battle is already won.

One transposition is no harder than another. It is a question of getting used to another one. We need to learn many. Some of them get rusty, but in terms of difficulty they are the same. I know guys that can transpose up a P4th fine ,but are at a loss when they need to transpose down a half step. They never went through the trouble of learning the transposition that they can't do. If one transposition gives you trouble, write out a couple of etudes transposed. Your mind will get used to thinking of the intervals that you have to keep writing down.

Practice transposing little tunes by ear. Anything. Row row row your boat in all of the keys by ear. You develop your transposition through the back door that way.

Good luck! Think of it as being advanced ear training.
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trickg
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2021 6:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Irving wrote:
Some things to keep in mind:

Always be aware of what key you are in. If you are holding a Bb tpt and transposing to E, then there are 6 sharps in your transposed key. Unless there are accidentals, then play in your key.

Know your scales. This will help you to play in your transposed key.

Know what your part sounds like. Nothing is harder than trying to transpose by seeing each note and trying to figure out what note to play. If you know what your part is supposed to sound like, then half of the battle is already won.

One transposition is no harder than another. It is a question of getting used to another one. We need to learn many. Some of them get rusty, but in terms of difficulty they are the same. I know guys that can transpose up a P4th fine ,but are at a loss when they need to transpose down a half step. They never went through the trouble of learning the transposition that they can't do. If one transposition gives you trouble, write out a couple of etudes transposed. Your mind will get used to thinking of the intervals that you have to keep writing down.

Practice transposing little tunes by ear. Anything. Row row row your boat in all of the keys by ear. You develop your transposition through the back door that way.

Good luck! Think of it as being advanced ear training.

One thing I've always had is a good ear, thankfully! I "know" my scales, but mostly through finger patterns - it's been a loooooong time since I dealt with the theory and actually knowing each scale and the key signature associated with it. I figure it will come back pretty quickly if I'm working on it.

The first thing I'm going to do is to learn how the parts sound - like you said, knowing what it's supposed to sound like really is half the battle. I know it's not going to happen quickly - I'm likely going to be struggling this first concert (in just another week and a half) but if all else fails, I'll write out the transpositions for the Danza Fantastic. I'm not sure what I'll do about the Tchaikovsky - that's a much longer, much more involved piece of music, but it really should be played on the C trumpet with everyone else.
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Dayton
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2021 7:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You'll probably be doing the majority of your transposition on your C trumpet, and you'll most likely need to transpose from trumpet in F, Eb, D, E, Bb and A. [I'm basing that on three-ish seasons worth of data.] So that is what you should focus on.

Start with easy etudes. Hering's 50 Recreational Studies and Getchell's First Book are terrific for that. I'd say develop basic fluency in each -- F, Eb, D, E, (Bb), A -- before diving deeper unless you know you won't have to sight read. Initially, it might be easier to pick a key per day rather than trying to work on all keys at once.

When you are ready to move on to more intermediate/advanced material, Caffarelli, Brandt's Last Etudes, and Sachse are excellent. Also, lots of orchestral rep is available on IMSLP. Playing the original parts is always useful.

A terrific book for working on Bb on C or C on Bb is (trumpeter) Phil Collins' "Pops Orchestra." Plus, there is a collection of John Williams' first trumpet parts that you can use for that same purpose.

Good luck, and have fun!
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2021 7:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unless I just missed it, this discussion is only about "direct" transposition. There's a whole 'nother set of possibilities by learning to transpose by moveable or changing clefs.
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trickg
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2021 7:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
Unless I just missed it, this discussion is only about "direct" transposition. There's a whole 'nother set of possibilities by learning to transpose by moveable or changing clefs.

Right now I'm just trying to get my head around transposing from either a Bb part or an F part to play on a C trumpet. I'll deal with clef shifts when that's a bridge I have to cross.
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HaveTrumpetWillTravel
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2021 7:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can't help you on F, but for Bb I found it really useful to use music I know well (basically hymns and jazz standards) and practice on them. After a week or so I was somewhat fluid on simple pieces.

If there's other music you know well (Arban's pieces), etc., often you can also find someone who has transposed them for C on youtube. I found that pretty useful, since for me hearing and then repeating always helps.
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Jay Lichtmann
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2021 7:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TRANSPOSITION STUDIES

Basic Transposition Studies

http://www.wwjdo.com/_sites/sheetmusic/transpositionstudies.pdf

Concone:

http://www.wwjdo.com/concone/

A Transposition:

http://www.wwjdo.com/_sites/sheetmusic/A_Transposition.pdf

Practical Transposition Exercises for the Aspiring Trumpeter/Band Director:

http://www.wwjdo.com/_sites/sheetmusic/transpostionforedmajors.pdf
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trickg
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2021 7:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

^^ That's brilliant! Thanks!
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ayryq
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2021 9:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just another tip, I got a blank 12-sided die and used a sharpie to mark all 12 keys on it. I open to a getchell, roll the die, and play as if it's marked in that key. So I'm holding a C trumpet and might roll trumpet in F#
I do a lot of transposition practice on my Eb since I don't play it much otherwise.

You might do the same with a 6-sided die and the most commonly used keys (F, Eb, D, A, G, Bb, maybe)
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ravel
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2021 1:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

if you can read clefs you are done!
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Tpt_Guy
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2021 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

trickg wrote:
Right now I'm just trying to get my head around transposing from either a Bb part or an F part to play on a C trumpet. I'll deal with clef shifts when that's a bridge I have to cross.


If you can read bass clef, you can use that to transpose up a Major or minor third, i.e. D on Bb trumpet, or Eb/E on C trumpet.

You can also use it to read C parts when holding a picc tuned to A - I often noodle around playing Mozart arias on picc and reading it this way is much easier than transposing note by note.

If you haven't learned to read bass yet, the Rochut etudes are well written and, if I understand correctly, are based on Bordogni studies so they are quite musical.

After that, the Finke Introducing the Tenor Clef and Introducing the Alto Clef books are very simple and use melodies to teach the clefs. These clefs make reading up or down a step easier.

One of the links posted by Jay Lichtmann is for a set of etudes to learn 'A' transposition by reading in Soprano clef. Those etudes are dynamite, and transposing to A is not at all uncommon in orchestral playing.

The one catch to all this is that you will need to adjust the key signature and any accidentals accordingly.

Back to reading Tchaik 4...you may find, as I did the first time I played it, that writing out the transposed part suddenly grants the ability to just read off the F part and transpose it from there. So go ahead and write it out. At the very least, it will be a good exercise.

All that aside, what was wrong with the voicing? Was the difference in timbre too much?
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mhenrikse
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2021 7:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wonder what is the most common or best approach for transposition. Clefs and key signatures or intervals? My teacher in high school, Mario Guarneri, had me using Rochut Trombone books so I could easily play in bass clef. But I started transposition study with Bordogni and thinking intervals.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2021 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mhenrikse wrote:
I wonder what is the most common or best approach for transposition. Clefs and key signatures or intervals? My teacher in high school, Mario Guarneri, had me using Rochut Trombone books so I could easily play in bass clef. But I started transposition study with Bordogni and thinking intervals.


That's interesting, because at the beginning of the Bordogni book there is a chart showing which clef and key to use to transpose to various keys using either Bb or C trumpet.
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Andy Del
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2021 7:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Many of us had to learn transposition, be able to sight transpose at the drop of a hat, etc.

When it comes to playing in an orchestra, yes, you transpose, but you don’t need to sight read it. Actually, if you are, you’ve done yourself and the band a dis-service.

Learn the part, by rote if you need to. Bud Herseth was quoted as saying transposition wasn’t all that necessary in the orchestra, as you knew your part so well it was as if it were memorised.

Now the transposition issue is gone!

Cheers

Andy
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trickg
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2021 7:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andy Del wrote:
Many of us had to learn transposition, be able to sight transpose at the drop of a hat, etc.

When it comes to playing in an orchestra, yes, you transpose, but you don’t need to sight read it. Actually, if you are, you’ve done yourself and the band a dis-service.

Learn the part, by rote if you need to. Bud Herseth was quoted as saying transposition wasn’t all that necessary in the orchestra, as you knew your part so well it was as if it were memorised.

Now the transposition issue is gone!

Cheers

Andy

I was only sight reading because I hadn't had the chance to get my hands on the music prior to the first rehearsal. I worked on it a bit last night, but I have another rehearsal tonight, so I'm not going to be much better off than I was the first time - a bit maybe, but not a ton. There's a lot of music to learn, and I have about a week - the concert is next Saturday night.

My friend who is the principle trumpet player basically told me not to sweat it - we have 4 players, so he said to hit the big lines, play what I could, but if I didn't feel confident on other parts, it was ok to not play those parts. There are only 2 pieces on the concert list that require transposition, and one of them is very straightforward - the Tchaikovsky symphony is the beast.

Now, if someone dropped a copy of the Tchaikovsky 4th in F minor in my lap that was written for C trumpet, I certainly wouldn't turn it away.

EDIT: I just found it for sale part by part, transposed for C trumpet, for a grand total of $3.75, downloadable. Needless to say, I'm probably going to do that given the short time between now and the concert.

EDIT 2: That $3.75 was just for the 1st movement. No worries - the whole thing cost less than $10 for all 4 movements, and gives me a great deal of peace of mind regarding next Saturday. I'm still going to learn to transpose, but this takes some pressure off for this first one.
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Last edited by trickg on Fri Sep 10, 2021 8:07 am; edited 1 time in total
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