• FAQ  • Search  • Memberlist  • Usergroups   • Register   • Profile  • Log in to check your private messages  • Log in 

Jens Lindemann about mouthpieces


Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Mouthpieces
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Daniel Barenboim
Veteran Member


Joined: 20 May 2011
Posts: 195

PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2021 8:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vin DiBona wrote:

Smoke, mirrors, and BS will not get you anywhere in Chicago.

Many of them will tweak something in their gear but they almost always are not making a radical change.
I hope this clarifies some issues.

R. Tomasek


I call changing rim size from a 7 to a 1 pretty radical. Granted he did wrap his car around a tree and bash up his face in the process.

DB
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Vin DiBona
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 24 Dec 2003
Posts: 1284
Location: OHare area

PostPosted: Sat Sep 11, 2021 4:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It seems I've struck a nerve for some here.
That was my intention.
Wrong information, no matter how innocent it may be, is still wrong information. Bobby Shew calls that perpetuating the myths.
Let me ask you this. If a young player comes here and receives the wrong information, is that going to help or hinder?
There used to be commercials for Holiday Inn Express where the person in the commercial thought they could do anything.
Here's one.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHCTaUFXpP8
That is what some of us here see here.

Kehaulani, the Schilke 11 is a copy of Herseth's NY 7C. Herseth won his job on a NY 7B and per Scott Laskey, he returned to them a the end of his career.

Daniel Barenboim. He did not hit a tree. His car slid on ice and he hit an abutment( or something like that) hitting the steering wheel with his lower lip. He had zero options other than to go very big. He had nerve damage and had to go where the was some feeling.
Here is a picture of him where you can see the scar. (It looks like his gold plated rim says 7C)
https://media.npr.org/assets/img/2013/04/16/herseth-ca.-1990s-jim-steere-photo--f29f96fbf9f43c9c8fd8c35d596cfdae8be8d7b8-s1200-c85.webp

R. Tomasek
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
chapahi
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 13 Sep 2005
Posts: 1394
Location: Stuttgart, Germany

PostPosted: Sat Sep 11, 2021 5:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trickg wrote:
JWG, I've known some players over the years with very large, fleshy lips - larger than mine - who sound great on mouthpieces smaller than what I use.


Yes. I think there are so many stark exceptions to this rule that it should stop. Cat Anderson's "El Gato" mouthpiece was probably the smallest mouthpiece in the world, Don Cherry played a Bach 20C, ...etc. the list goes on and on. The "full lip players should play automatically a large inner rim diameter and vice-versa" rule should stop.
_________________
Sima, Kanstul 1525 Flugel and Kanstul pocket trumpet. Olds Super
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
adagiotrumpet
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 31 May 2006
Posts: 749

PostPosted: Sat Sep 11, 2021 7:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Vin DiBona"
Wrong information, no matter how innocent it may be, is still wrong information.
R. Tomasek[/quote]

"Wrong information....is still wrong information". I couldn't agree more. For example, "Most here (but not all) are hacks and amateurs" is wrong information. The beauty of a forum like this is that when information appears to be wrong, this can be addressed on the forum without dissing "most but not all" of the members. That why they call it a forum.

If something that is posted and one knows it to be wrong, point it out. Share your knowledge and information. Isn't that how forums work?

And by all means, don't try to prove your point by committing the same faux pas. Don't intentionally post wrong information just to justify the point that wrong information is wrong information. Unless you can prove otherwise, on this forum, most here are NOT hacks and amateurs. Even those that intentionally dispel wrong information.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
kehaulani
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 23 Mar 2003
Posts: 5256
Location: Hawai'i - Texas

PostPosted: Sat Sep 11, 2021 7:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@R. Tomasek, thanks so much for answering my question. I appreciate your personal attention. I played on a Schilke Model H through high school and part of college, and always wondered.

I didn't play it because of Herseth worship but because my teacher, who did his Master Degree with Schilke BTW, suggested it. What did I know? Worked well, though.
_________________
"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Charlie Parker
"Even if I could play like Wynton Marsalis, I wouldn't play like Wynton Marsalis."
Chet Baker
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Bryant Jordan
Veteran Member


Joined: 16 Aug 2015
Posts: 354
Location: Utah, USA

PostPosted: Sat Sep 11, 2021 8:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is interesting. It makes sense, but for me, I made the switch to a AR Resonance MLC (around a Bach 1.5C), and haven't played a mouthpiece to date that fits me like it does. My sound, range, endurance, flexibility, etc. are better than on any other piece I've played, and it's the biggest piece I've ever played. I believe that a mouthpiece size depends heavily on the anatomy of your lips, face, and jaw. Smaller might not always be better. In general though, it makes sense to not play deliberately on a bigger mouthpiece.
_________________
Cannonball Educator
———————————
Horns:
-Cannonball
Mouthpieces:
-AR Resonance, Marcinkiewicz
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Daniel Barenboim
Veteran Member


Joined: 20 May 2011
Posts: 195

PostPosted: Sat Sep 11, 2021 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vin DiBona wrote:

Most here (but not all) are hacks and amateurs who spend more time writing dozens of posts a week instead of actually practicing or playing somewhere.
R. Tomasek


Now there's a way to win friends and influence people. Thank you for setting us all straight "Mr. Chicago." What do you do for a living again?

DB
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tpt_Guy
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 16 Jul 2004
Posts: 923
Location: Sacramento, Ca

PostPosted: Sat Sep 11, 2021 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

adagiotrumpet wrote:
Vin DiBona wrote:

Wrong information, no matter how innocent it may be, is still wrong information.
R. Tomasek


"Wrong information....is still wrong information". I couldn't agree more. For example, "Most here (but not all) are hacks and amateurs" is wrong information.


So it is your position that the majority of TH members are professional trumpet players.

I would also classify that as wrong information.

Unless you are making a hidden dig at TH membership by saying everyone here is either a hack or an amateur, but we all know that is not true.
_________________
-Tom Hall-
Bach 37 B flat
Bach 239 C w/Akright Leadpipe
Schilke E3L E flat
Stomvi Piccolo
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Daniel Barenboim
Veteran Member


Joined: 20 May 2011
Posts: 195

PostPosted: Sat Sep 11, 2021 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tpt_Guy wrote:
adagiotrumpet wrote:
Vin DiBona wrote:

Wrong information, no matter how innocent it may be, is still wrong information.
R. Tomasek


"Wrong information....is still wrong information". I couldn't agree more. For example, "Most here (but not all) are hacks and amateurs" is wrong information.


So it is your position that the majority of TH members are professional trumpet players.

I would also classify that as wrong information.

Unless you are making a hidden dig at TH membership by saying everyone here is either a hack or an amateur, but we all know that is not true.


Nope. See my previous post. Nothing hidden about that dig.

DB
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
adagiotrumpet
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 31 May 2006
Posts: 749

PostPosted: Sat Sep 11, 2021 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Tpt_Guy"]
adagiotrumpet wrote:
Vin DiBona wrote:



"Wrong information....is still wrong information". I couldn't agree more. For example, "Most here (but not all) are hacks and amateurs" is wrong information.


So it is your position that the majority of TH members are professional trumpet players.

I would also classify that as wrong information.


I am assuming that this is being directed at my comments. I never said or even intimated that the majority of TH members are professional trumpet players. Re-read my posts and show me where that was said. What I did say was that I didn't think that "most here (but not all) are hacks and amateurs" is a fair statement. I think I also made it clear that this was my opinion and that I didn't have the statistics to establish what percentage of TH members belonged to any specific group.

What I also said was that I felt that the "hacks and amateurs" comment was both nasty and demeaning. I can't help it if this was interpreted as fact as opposed to opinion.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tpt_Guy
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 16 Jul 2004
Posts: 923
Location: Sacramento, Ca

PostPosted: Sat Sep 11, 2021 11:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

adagiotrumpet wrote:
Tpt_Guy wrote:
So it is your position that the majority of TH members are professional trumpet players.

I would also classify that as wrong information.


I am assuming that this is being directed at my comments. I never said or even intimated that the majority of TH members are professional trumpet players. Re-read my posts and show me where that was said. What I did say was that I didn't think that "most here (but not all) are hacks and amateurs" is a fair statement.


Actually you said this:

Quote:
For example, "Most here (but not all) are hacks and amateurs" is wrong information.


Fairness was never mentioned in that post. Since most means "the majority of persons" and it is somehow wrong information to say most here are "hacks and amateurs" I'm a little lost now that you are saying that you never said or intimated that the majority here are professionals.

Then you said:

Quote:
I think I also made it clear that this was my opinion and that I didn't have the statistics to establish what percentage of TH members belonged to any specific group.


Saying "X is wrong" is not a statement of an opinion, or at the very least is not worded as an opinion. So, unfortunately it was not clear.

This I can get behind:

Quote:
What I also said was that I felt that the "hacks and amateurs" comment was both nasty and demeaning.


There is no need to antagonize the membership; using the term hack was not really called for, though when I read his post I didn't take it as an insult, rather it was pointing out that the majority of people here are not professional players, which makes us, by definition, amateur players. An amateur is someone who engages in an activity for the enjoyment of it, rather than as a profession. There is nothing wrong with being an amateur. Amateur doesn't mean unskilled.

Unfortunately, many members (but certainly not most) tend to act as if they know better than the professionals who play and teach at a high level for a living. There have been professional players who have left TH as a result.

I will never let anyone get away with something like this:

Quote:
I can't help it if this was interpreted as fact as opposed to opinion.


Yes, you can help it. You can word it something along the lines of, "I don't believe this is true" or "I think this is incorrect". Adding such words as "think" or "believe" place it squarely in the realm of opinion, which you are now claiming it to be. Read and re-read before hitting "submit". I do whenever I post simply because I know I'm responsible for the effect I have on other people, whether it was intentional or not, and I don't want someone to misunderstand what I'm trying to say.

And yes, I have intentionally made posts that ruffled a few feathers just to make a point. Guilty as charged!
_________________
-Tom Hall-
Bach 37 B flat
Bach 239 C w/Akright Leadpipe
Schilke E3L E flat
Stomvi Piccolo
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tpt_Guy
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 16 Jul 2004
Posts: 923
Location: Sacramento, Ca

PostPosted: Sat Sep 11, 2021 11:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Daniel Barenboim wrote:
Tpt_Guy wrote:
adagiotrumpet wrote:
Vin DiBona wrote:

Wrong information, no matter how innocent it may be, is still wrong information.
R. Tomasek


"Wrong information....is still wrong information". I couldn't agree more. For example, "Most here (but not all) are hacks and amateurs" is wrong information.


So it is your position that the majority of TH members are professional trumpet players.

I would also classify that as wrong information.

Unless you are making a hidden dig at TH membership by saying everyone here is either a hack or an amateur, but we all know that is not true.


Nope. See my previous post. Nothing hidden about that dig.

DB


I believe my post has been misunderstood by someone.
_________________
-Tom Hall-
Bach 37 B flat
Bach 239 C w/Akright Leadpipe
Schilke E3L E flat
Stomvi Piccolo
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Trumpetingbynurture
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 18 Nov 2015
Posts: 803

PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2021 3:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This thread has gone off the rails but I would like to interject that the idea that smaller is inherently more 'efficient' or whatever is only true under particular conditions. Indeed, the idea of efficiency depends entirely on the physiology involved, because ultimately what one means by efficient is really "ease". However this is not straightforward, because it depends on the task you're doing.

A small diameter, shallow cup with a tight backbore etc might make playing certain things easier, but it comes at the cost of making other things harder.
It's harder to produce a full, singing tone and play with near-perfect accuracy on a small diameter or too shallow of a cup. If you're an orchestral player, you care more about accuracy and sound then about playing a loud double C.

Too often what we think efficient means is "good for playing in the upper register and extreme upper register". That's not efficient, that's effective for a purpose.

There is such a thing as acoustical efficiency but it has little to do with what most people mean, and little to do with diameter or cup depth.

It also has to be said that THE most important thing is your physiology.

For me, I've fairly recently found that in fact, a Bach 1 diameter improves everything. Ease, accuracy and range are all improved. Now that I've discovered that it is true, it didn't take long to work out why a larger diameter is advantageous for me personally, and why even a 1 1/4c diameter doesn't produce the same result (at least not as reliably). It has to do primarily with my teeth and how the air creates a pathway to the lips and forms the aperture (across different registers). A smaller rim causes impingement on the vibration mechanically when mouthpiece pressure is used. (Even the bare minimum required for a good sound). This has led to years of personal frustration and issues with consistency and accuracy issues, and a thin upper register even though I've had a double C for years.

I can explain what's happening and why. I can play a louder double C and with better Endurance on a Bach 1B or 1D or 1E (without bottoming out) than I could on any smaller mouthpiece regardless of cup etc.
I only realised this might be the case when I realised I had the exact same range on the trombone and that except for the extreme upper register, playing the trombone up there was not really harder at all.

The first and primary determiner of suitable diameter range depends entirely on lip impingement. For some, most diameters are workable in this regards and playing a large diameter may be unnecessary (but in most cases won't hurt anything either). For some, only a small diameter will work, for some like me, even conventionally large diameters might actually be too small. Fortunately the Bach 1 diameter is just wide enough not to impinge the vibration.

Going larger has honestly improved everything, including endurance. I can do four-six hours of gruelling practice on a 1B with a large throat and be tired but no soreness and have no issue playing the next day. If I use a smaller diameter, then I start to get tired around the 2-3 hour mark and usually feel a bit stiff and like I overdid it the next day.

Larger diameters have been a revelation, especially because it wasn't until I hit the 1 diameter that I noticed some very sudden improvements after a couple of days of playing. Like if you had me playing next to you the week before and I was there again this week you'd think I was a different player entirely.

I really can't stress how much exactly this post from Jens (and similar comments from Vizzutti) have kept me stuck thinking 'well if my range is a bit iffy on a [insert smaller diameter mouthpieces] then there's no point trying a 1B, it'll just make it worse. It's not that it's bad advice, it's just that every piece of advice is dead wrong for someone.

My point is that anything anyone says can be someone's cryptonite. If you're planning on playing lead trumpet, sure explore the smaller side of things. If you're planning to play orchestral repertoire then explore the larger side of things. However, also explore some extremes as well. Try something tiny and something extra large, just to rule it out.
Also, be mindful that if you've played on a diameter that doesn't suit you for some time, it may take a couple of days for you to get back to mother nature and see how it vibes with the mouthpiece

Also interestingly my diameter falls right in line with where stork mouthpieces says I should play, however, I'm quite sure it is the teeth and not the fleshiness of my lips that makes it suitable.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
patdublc
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 02 Jun 2006
Posts: 940
Location: Salisbury, MD

PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2021 4:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jen's "rant" as it has become known has been posted here on TH a couple of times by Jens. I've discussed this with him on multiple occasions. At one point, he even said "if you can't play it on a 3C, then you can't play it". He never meant any of this to be inflammatory but rather introspective.
Some examples -
College trumpet player learning the Haydn while playing a Schilke 6A4a because somebody told them it would help them hit the high notes. Not saying it can't be done, but it is an extreme choice
Average amateur community band trumpet player playing a Bach 1 because somebody told them it has a better sound. Not saying it can't be done, but it is an extreme choice.
Jen's point is that a very high percentage of trumpet players chase the grail mouthpiece without focusing on really learning fundamentals. The audience here is not the "specialists" but the students and amateurs.
I think he has a great point of view. [/list][/list]
_________________
Pat Shaner
Play Wedge Mouthpieces by Dr. Dave exclusively.
Experiment with LOTS of horn makes and models.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Riojazz
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 25 Dec 2006
Posts: 797
Location: Mid-Hudson Valley, NY

PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2021 6:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trickg wrote:


...
Curry -- Comfortable, but bright.
Patrick -- Came with the Shires Model B - feels a little tighter, but has a comfortable rim.
Jupiter XO -- Came with my Jupiter 1600i. ...

ALL of them feel, play, focus, and sound different. At least 3 of them are supposed to be based on a Mount Vernon 3C.

Just checking if this is an autocorrect mistake. My Shires trumpet came with a Pickett3 mouthpiece (not Patrick). I like the sound from it very much and it's an excellent competitor in the 3C realm. I happen to like my GR Sanborn 66 a bit better, but if I had to play the Pickett I would be OK.
_________________
Matt Finley
https://www.mattfinley.com
https://mattfinley.bandcamp.com/releases

Kanstul 1525 flugel with French taper, Shires Bb & C trumpets, Schilke XA1 cornet, Yamaha F/G, Schilke P5-4 pic, Yamaha soprano sax, Powell flute. Sanborn GR66MS.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Trumpetingbynurture
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 18 Nov 2015
Posts: 803

PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2021 11:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote


Link
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Seymor B Fudd
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 17 Oct 2015
Posts: 1116
Location: Sweden

PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2021 2:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not having English as my mother tongue I had to consult Woodsworth´s concise English dictionary in order to define "hack".A hack might be 1)a horse kept for hire, a poor one 2)any person overworked on hire 3)a literary or journalistic drudge. Not familiar with the concept my associations go to a poor animal like a donkey, notorious for its hideous neighing.....To call somebody a hack does seem to be a bit rude, to my understanding.
I may be an amateur but a very curious one, open for clever inputs although a true sceptical at heart.
In my professional/academic life I certainly am anything but an amateur.
So some ability to perceive, to judge, to evaluate, to do research is at hand.
Surely you will find blind and ignorant followers everywhere, but I do hold that the majority of the Heralders are interested, well informed and serious people. To establish this as a fact - well then your´re up for some serious research...maybe consulting dr Hugo Z Hackenbush
( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixNUpUnwZpY )
_________________
Cornets:
Getzen Custom Series Schilke 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Yamaha YCR6330II
Getzen Eterna Eb
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1974)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
hibidogrulez
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 25 Jun 2020
Posts: 883
Location: Europe

PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2021 4:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seymor B Fudd wrote:
Not having English as my mother tongue I had to consult Woodsworth´s concise English dictionary in order to define "hack".

In this instance the Urban Dictionary's definition may be more accurate. The 3rd description for the noun is probably most accurate here:
UrbanDictionary wrote:
A cheap, mediocre, or second-rate practitioner, especially in the fields of journalism and literature: a charlatan or incompetent.

"That two-bit pulp writer? Ah, he's nothing but a hack."

Other definitions:
- An individual that unintentionally makes life difficult for others.

- A troll that has somehow justified their actions and doesn't think they're actually trolling.

- Someone that doesn't take responsibility for their actions and it negatively affects the group.

- A joke of a person

Regardless, it's not a positive term when applied to a person. When it's used to describe a trick someone uses to bypass conventional means and achieve something otherwise hard or impossible (i.e. like hacking a computer system, or a life-hack) then it's usually positive (though the ad hoc nature of it is recognized over say, a proper solution or method).
_________________
Enthusiastic amateur with good intentions. My personal experiences may not match yours. Value my posts as you see fit.

Plays an Olds Recording with AR Resonance mouthpiece(s)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
trickg
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 02 Jan 2002
Posts: 5148
Location: Glen Burnie, Maryland

PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2021 5:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Riojazz wrote:
trickg wrote:


...
Curry -- Comfortable, but bright.
Patrick -- Came with the Shires Model B - feels a little tighter, but has a comfortable rim.
Jupiter XO -- Came with my Jupiter 1600i. ...

ALL of them feel, play, focus, and sound different. At least 3 of them are supposed to be based on a Mount Vernon 3C.

Just checking if this is an autocorrect mistake. My Shires trumpet came with a Pickett3 mouthpiece (not Patrick). I like the sound from it very much and it's an excellent competitor in the 3C realm. I happen to like my GR Sanborn 66 a bit better, but if I had to play the Pickett I would be OK.

Good catch - it wasn't an autocorrect - I was simply mistaken. The mouthpiece itself is marked "S.E. Shires" but mouthpieces for Shires are made by Pickett. I misspoke/mistyped on who the mouthpiece is made by. (I have corrected this in my earlier post.)

Oddly, I had a rough day on the horn on Saturday playing Bb. I was at a 9/11 ceremony for Maryland's National Guard fallen, and was tasked with sounding "Taps" - the Governor and a US Senator + news crews were all there - no pressure, right?

It was a good Taps, but I knew from the first note that I needed to really focus. Fortunately I had no clams, and my sound, dynamics , intonation and note lengths were good, but I just didn't feel like I had a lot of control - everything felt stiff, and I didn't feel like it was as musical as it could have been.

I don't know if it was because I had a long rehearsal the night before and my chops were just stiff, or if my chops are balking because I'm still in the middle of a mouthpiece change or what the deal was, but the horn just didn't feel good. It was that way all the way through the pre-music and ceremony music too.

Or, I could simply have been having an off day - that does tend to happen now and again.
_________________
Patrick Gleason
- Shires Model B, Marcinkiewicz #2, Warburton 4SVW/KT
- Brasspire Unicorn C, Pickett/Shires 3C

"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
JayKosta
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 24 Dec 2018
Posts: 1880
Location: Endwell NY USA

PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2021 9:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trickg wrote:
... It was a good Taps, but I knew from the first note that I needed to really focus. Fortunately I had no clams, and my sound, dynamics , intonation and note lengths were good, but I just didn't feel like I had a lot of control - everything felt stiff, and I didn't feel like it was as musical as it could have been. ...

----------------------------------
trickg - this is not a comment about your playing of Taps.

My view is that when part of a memorial service or ceremony, there shouldn't a noticeable 'musical ' aspect to the playing of Taps.

Yes it should be played well and without any fluffs, but it should be played in a very respectful and solemn manner. The only embellishment might be doing 'echo Taps' with another player. Taps should never be 'stylized' as is sometimes done to the Star Spangled Banner at sporting events (and I don't care for that either!).
_________________
going back to French horn!
Yamaha 668N, Holton DC mpc
The 'next note' is the most important one.
Don't take a '20 minute mouthpiece' to a 1 hour session.
http://users.hancock.net/jkosta/2021_April_1_snow_web.jpg
April morning Surprise
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Mouthpieces All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Page 2 of 3

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group