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chef8489 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Aug 2011 Posts: 850 Location: Johnson City Tn
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Posted: Sat Sep 11, 2021 3:37 pm Post subject: Kmi vs Hn white 1055t? |
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I am a huge fan of Hn white horns. I am in market for a 1055t and was looking for a hn white horn, but came across a Kmi with a date in the early 70s with a serial number around 490k. How does the Kmi compare to the Hn white horns? Did Kmi keep up the quality in the early and mid 70s horns Eastlake horns? _________________ Current horns
2023 Bach 19072G/43 pipe with 1st trigger
1966 H.N. White King Silver Flair
1965 H.N. White King Super 20 Sllversonic Symphony 1st trigger |
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silverhorn Heavyweight Member
Joined: 08 Jan 2003 Posts: 681
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Posted: Sat Sep 11, 2021 6:15 pm Post subject: |
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As long as it’s pre UMI, the HN White and KMI silver flair trumpets were very similar in quality and playability as far as I could tell. Of course, the earlier HN White ones are probably more desirable by collectors though. |
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Crazy Finn Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Dec 2001 Posts: 8331 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
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Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2021 6:29 pm Post subject: |
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KMI as in King Musical Instruments?
Never thought of that acronym. _________________ LA Benge 3X Bb Trumpet
Selmer Radial Bb Trumpet
Yamaha 6335S Bb Trumpet
Besson 709 Bb Trumpet
Bach 184L Bb Cornet
Yamaha 731 Bb Flugelhorn |
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chef8489 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Aug 2011 Posts: 850 Location: Johnson City Tn
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Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2021 6:39 pm Post subject: |
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Crazy Finn wrote: | KMI as in King Musical Instruments?
Never thought of that acronym. |
Yes. The company that Directly followed H.N. White. I'm looking at a 1972 Eastlake horn that seems in great condition for around 700.00 plus shipping. Doesn't have the original case, but comes with king case of a different Era. Kinda looks like an older 2055t case from the 80s. _________________ Current horns
2023 Bach 19072G/43 pipe with 1st trigger
1966 H.N. White King Silver Flair
1965 H.N. White King Super 20 Sllversonic Symphony 1st trigger |
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LittleRusty Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12647 Location: Gardena, Ca
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Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2021 7:57 pm Post subject: |
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Crazy Finn wrote: | KMI as in King Musical Instruments?
Never thought of that acronym. |
Me either. And I didn't even figure out as much as you did. |
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adagiotrumpet Heavyweight Member
Joined: 31 May 2006 Posts: 901
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Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2021 9:06 am Post subject: |
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Having wanted an original King Silver Flair for a long time, I ended up buying two last year, both 1055's. One was from Cleveland and the other from Eastlake. Both were in equally excellent original condition. Playing them side by side, it was difficult to notice much difference between the two. They both played great. |
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chef8489 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Aug 2011 Posts: 850 Location: Johnson City Tn
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Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 2:12 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for the replies. I picked up the kmi horn. Hopefully it's in the condition as described in the marketplace ad. After shipping it was a bit under 800.00. I'm a bit concerned about the valves from the pictures and worried they might need to be replaced, but seller said they were good. Seller also said horn had no dents or plating loss or scratches. _________________ Current horns
2023 Bach 19072G/43 pipe with 1st trigger
1966 H.N. White King Silver Flair
1965 H.N. White King Super 20 Sllversonic Symphony 1st trigger |
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HERMOKIWI Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2008 Posts: 2578
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Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 10:39 am Post subject: |
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chef8489 wrote: | Thanks for the replies. I picked up the kmi horn. Hopefully it's in the condition as described in the marketplace ad. After shipping it was a bit under 800.00. I'm a bit concerned about the valves from the pictures and worried they might need to be replaced, but seller said they were good. Seller also said horn had no dents or plating loss or scratches. |
If there are no dents, plating loss or scratches the horn probably wasn't played much so the valves should be fine. The King Instruments Silver Flair must have been a horn that was popular with students who didn't play much and then quit because it seems that every time I see one for sale it is in almost new condition. I bought one many years ago for $700 and it was like new and plays great. _________________ HERMOKIWI |
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chef8489 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Aug 2011 Posts: 850 Location: Johnson City Tn
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Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 11:20 am Post subject: |
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HERMOKIWI wrote: | chef8489 wrote: | Thanks for the replies. I picked up the kmi horn. Hopefully it's in the condition as described in the marketplace ad. After shipping it was a bit under 800.00. I'm a bit concerned about the valves from the pictures and worried they might need to be replaced, but seller said they were good. Seller also said horn had no dents or plating loss or scratches. |
If there are no dents, plating loss or scratches the horn probably wasn't played much so the valves should be fine. The King Instruments Silver Flair must have been a horn that was popular with students who didn't play much and then quit because it seems that every time I see one for sale it is in almost new condition. I bought one many years ago for $700 and it was like new and plays great. |
I agree mostly, but pics of valves look like there is plating loss on them. IDK maybe they are just dirty.
_________________ Current horns
2023 Bach 19072G/43 pipe with 1st trigger
1966 H.N. White King Silver Flair
1965 H.N. White King Super 20 Sllversonic Symphony 1st trigger |
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Beyond16 Veteran Member
Joined: 07 Jan 2020 Posts: 220 Location: Texas Gulf Coast
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Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 1:00 pm Post subject: |
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chef8489 wrote: |
I agree mostly, but pics of valves look like there is plating loss on them. IDK maybe they are just dirty.
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Those valves don't look bad. The brown is probably just staining, and it's best to leave it. I have a 1055T that I paid $600 for. The silver plating isn't perfect, but the valves are in great condition, as measured by a pressure test. |
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chef8489 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Aug 2011 Posts: 850 Location: Johnson City Tn
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Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 1:18 pm Post subject: |
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Beyond16 wrote: | chef8489 wrote: |
I agree mostly, but pics of valves look like there is plating loss on them. IDK maybe they are just dirty.
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Those valves don't look bad. The brown is probably just staining, and it's best to leave it. I have a 1055T that I paid $600 for. The silver plating isn't perfect, but the valves are in great condition, as measured by a pressure test. |
I'll see once it arrives. I'll also get my tech to look the horn over. Maybe do a Chem clean and polish. Check the felts, corks, and everything. The 3rd ring is bent pretty badly, so I did order a replacement _________________ Current horns
2023 Bach 19072G/43 pipe with 1st trigger
1966 H.N. White King Silver Flair
1965 H.N. White King Super 20 Sllversonic Symphony 1st trigger |
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chef8489 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Aug 2011 Posts: 850 Location: Johnson City Tn
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Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2021 7:25 am Post subject: |
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now Im thinking I am not getting the horn. Seller I bought it from in the marketplace gave me a tracking number that is being delivered to the wrong state. Usps says the package is way over weight from what a trumpet would weigh. either seller made a mistake or I am getting scammed. ad still has not been removed after the trumpet was sold as well. Hopefully it wa just a honest mistake and horn will still show up. Luckily I did not pay with friends and family, except 16.00 that was a payment for the difference for the cost of priority shipping from what I originally paid. _________________ Current horns
2023 Bach 19072G/43 pipe with 1st trigger
1966 H.N. White King Silver Flair
1965 H.N. White King Super 20 Sllversonic Symphony 1st trigger |
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trumpetom2 Regular Member
Joined: 02 Feb 2017 Posts: 52
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Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2021 8:18 am Post subject: Re: Kmi vs Hn white 1055t? |
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chef8489 wrote: | now Im thinking I am not getting the horn. Seller I bought it from in the marketplace gave me a tracking number that is being delivered to the wrong state. Usps says the package is way over weight from what a trumpet would weigh. either seller made a mistake or I am getting scammed. ad still has not been removed after the trumpet was sold as well. Hopefully it wa just a honest mistake and horn will still show up. Luckily I did not pay with friends and family, except 16.00 that was a payment for the difference for the cost of priority shipping from what I originally paid. |
I do hope your Silver Flair will arrive eventually.
They are really great trumpets!
I'm also a huge fan of the 1055T King Silver Flairs and I have had four of them.
One all original HN White Silver Flair from 1965, one KMI from the early 70s and two from the late 70s.
(Forget about the post 1985 UMI 2055 Silver Flairs. They are a completely different trumpets and more of an advanced student horn than pro-horn).
The HN White Silver Flairs and the early 70s KMI Silver Flairs are spot on identical (besides the engravings) and they are the best version of the Silver Flair.
The late 70s KMI Silver Flairs have some differences, though...
On the very end of the third silde tube is a "ring" attached but I guess this is more of a cosmetic thing.
(I can send photos if it's unclear what I mean by "ring".)
The valve guides are made out of plastic and not of brass.
And most importantly, they have a different bell.
The bell diameter is 1/2'' smaller and the bell flare is also narrower by a tiny, tiny little bit.
As far as I can tell the leapipe and valve block are the same though.
The late 70s KMIs still play very similar to the older ones but they tend to sound a little tighter and brighter.
And this was the case with both of my late 70s Silver Flairs.
I ended up selling both of them and kept the older ones, however my early 70s Silver Flair is for sale now as well.
But no chance that I will sell my HN White Silver Flair.
This one is truely a keeper! _________________ HN White King Master Vocal C/Bb/A cornet - 1918
HN White King Silver Flair - 1965
Martin Committe Deluxe #3 - 1957
Couesnon Monopole Conservatoire Star - 1960s |
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chef8489 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Aug 2011 Posts: 850 Location: Johnson City Tn
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Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2021 8:27 am Post subject: Re: Kmi vs Hn white 1055t? |
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trumpetom2 wrote: | chef8489 wrote: | now Im thinking I am not getting the horn. Seller I bought it from in the marketplace gave me a tracking number that is being delivered to the wrong state. Usps says the package is way over weight from what a trumpet would weigh. either seller made a mistake or I am getting scammed. ad still has not been removed after the trumpet was sold as well. Hopefully it wa just a honest mistake and horn will still show up. Luckily I did not pay with friends and family, except 16.00 that was a payment for the difference for the cost of priority shipping from what I originally paid. |
I do hope your Silver Flair will arrive eventually.
They are really great trumpets!
I'm also a huge fan of the 1055T King Silver Flairs and I have had four of them.
One all original HN White Silver Flair from 1965, one KMI from the early 70s and two from the late 70s.
(Forget about the post 1985 UMI 2055 Silver Flairs. They are a completely different trumpets and more of an advanced student horn than pro-horn).
The HN White Silver Flairs and the early 70s KMI Silver Flairs are spot on identical (besides the engravings) and they are the best version of the Silver Flair.
The late 70s KMI Silver Flairs have some differences, though...
On the very end of the third silde tube is a "ring" attached but I guess this is more of a cosmetic thing.
(I can send photos if it's unclear what I mean by "ring".)
The valve guides are made out of plastic and not of brass.
And most importantly, they have a different bell.
The bell diameter is 1/2'' smaller and the bell flare is also narrower by a tiny, tiny little bit.
As far as I can tell the leapipe and valve block are the same though.
The late 70s KMIs still play very similar to the older ones but they tend to sound a little tighter and brighter.
And this was the case with both of my late 70s Silver Flairs.
I ended up selling both of them and kept the older ones, however my early 70s Silver Flair is for sale now as well.
But no chance that I will sell my HN White Silver Flair.
This one is truely a keeper! |
I'm really hoping it still shows up. Seller says post office mixed up tracking. If it doesn't I'll get a refund and then put that money towards a H.N White silver Flair, unless I can find a mint kmi flair for a deal like this one. _________________ Current horns
2023 Bach 19072G/43 pipe with 1st trigger
1966 H.N. White King Silver Flair
1965 H.N. White King Super 20 Sllversonic Symphony 1st trigger |
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Beyond16 Veteran Member
Joined: 07 Jan 2020 Posts: 220 Location: Texas Gulf Coast
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Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2021 5:10 pm Post subject: |
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I imagine it will show up. But if not, you can have this one.
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chef8489 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Aug 2011 Posts: 850 Location: Johnson City Tn
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Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2021 9:34 pm Post subject: |
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Beyond16 wrote: | I imagine it will show up. But if not, you can have this one.
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Ah that auction ended. _________________ Current horns
2023 Bach 19072G/43 pipe with 1st trigger
1966 H.N. White King Silver Flair
1965 H.N. White King Super 20 Sllversonic Symphony 1st trigger
Last edited by chef8489 on Sun Sep 19, 2021 11:03 am; edited 1 time in total |
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trumpetom2 Regular Member
Joined: 02 Feb 2017 Posts: 52
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Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 6:49 am Post subject: |
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chef8489 wrote: | Beyond16 wrote: | I imagine it will show up. But if not, you can have this one.
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Ah that auction ended. |
This is one of the later KMI King Silver Flairs with the "rings" at the end of the third valve tube.
If you ever get the chance to play it side to side to an older one you will see and hear the difference. _________________ HN White King Master Vocal C/Bb/A cornet - 1918
HN White King Silver Flair - 1965
Martin Committe Deluxe #3 - 1957
Couesnon Monopole Conservatoire Star - 1960s |
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chef8489 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Aug 2011 Posts: 850 Location: Johnson City Tn
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Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 7:02 am Post subject: |
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trumpetom2 wrote: | chef8489 wrote: | Beyond16 wrote: | I imagine it will show up. But if not, you can have this one.
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Ah that auction ended. |
This is one of the later KMI King Silver Flairs with the "rings" at the end of the third valve tube.
If you ever get the chance to play it side to side to an older one you will see and hear the difference. |
Looking at pics I see what you mean. How do they sound different?
The one I ordered off the marketplace here never showed up unfortunately. Seller said if did not show up by Monday he would issue a refund. I am quite disappointed as I was quite excited as it was a great deal in my opinion. Seems his post office screwed up with the postage. The tracking I paid for they put on a different package and now the package I paid for priority and insurance is lost with no way to track. _________________ Current horns
2023 Bach 19072G/43 pipe with 1st trigger
1966 H.N. White King Silver Flair
1965 H.N. White King Super 20 Sllversonic Symphony 1st trigger |
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HERMOKIWI Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2008 Posts: 2578
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Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 10:02 am Post subject: Re: Kmi vs Hn white 1055t? |
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trumpetom2 wrote: | The late 70s KMI Silver Flairs have some differences, though...The bell diameter is 1/2'' smaller. |
This can't be accurate. I have an earlier KMI Silver Flair (without the third valve slide rings and with metal valve guides) and the bell diameter is 4.75". So if the late 70's KMI Silver Flairs had a bell 1/2" smaller in diameter that would make the bell 4.25" which is the same diameter as the bell on my 1936 Conn 40B Vocabell. There is a drastic difference between a 4.75" diameter bell and a 4.25" diameter bell. From about 1940 on I don't know of any horn with a 4.25" diameter bell. _________________ HERMOKIWI |
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trumpetom2 Regular Member
Joined: 02 Feb 2017 Posts: 52
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Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 10:55 am Post subject: Re: Kmi vs Hn white 1055t? |
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HERMOKIWI wrote: | trumpetom2 wrote: | The late 70s KMI Silver Flairs have some differences, though...The bell diameter is 1/2'' smaller. |
This can't be accurate. I have an earlier KMI Silver Flair (without the third valve slide rings and with metal valve guides) and the bell diameter is 4.75". So if the late 70's KMI Silver Flairs had a bell 1/2" smaller in diameter that would make the bell 4.25" which is the same diameter as the bell on my 1936 Conn 40B Vocabell. There is a drastic difference between a 4.75" diameter bell and a 4.25" diameter bell. From about 1940 on I don't know of any horn with a 4.25" diameter bell. |
Thanks for your input and I'm sorry if I'm mistaken here.
Since I'm from Europe I'm not used to use the inch scale.
I believe it was something about 8 mm, so maybe a 1/3'' then?
Beyond16 wrote: | I imagine it will show up. But if not, you can have this
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Maybe Beyond16 can tell us what exact bell diameter his Silver Flair has to settle the issue.
But as I remember both bells of my later KMI Silver Flairs were by a tiny little bit smaller.
chef8489 wrote: |
Looking at pics I see what you mean. How do they sound different?
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Concerning your question...they play similar but the later ones tend to sound a little bit tighter and brighter.
(Also, may I ask of you could do us a favor and delete this HUGE photo in your quote, please?) _________________ HN White King Master Vocal C/Bb/A cornet - 1918
HN White King Silver Flair - 1965
Martin Committe Deluxe #3 - 1957
Couesnon Monopole Conservatoire Star - 1960s |
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