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Ponderings About Collegiate Trumpet Programs


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trickg
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 11:14 am    Post subject: Ponderings About Collegiate Trumpet Programs Reply with quote

I recently stumbled into a YouTube video of a former HS student I knew performing their college senior recital.

I met this kid when I was working with a local high school jazz band - this particular student opted to not be a part of my jazz band - I think they believed that they were too good for it, or at the very least they believed that they were more classically oriented as a player. They also seemed to think that they were "it" as a player - at least at their high school. In the times I heard this student, I raised my eyebrow a bit - they might have been good within the context of their peers, but they were a long way from being developed as a player.

Now let's flash forward about 5 years and this senior recital that was published to Youtube.

It was embarrassingly bad, and that's being kind. 4 years of higher learning in a music program, lessons, rehearsals, juries, etc, and there didn't seem to be much improvement from the player they were when I knew them as a high school kid. We're talking fundamental issues from the jump - immature sound, chops that flat out failed at certain points in the program, bad time and sense of tempo and ensemble, little actual musicianship, etc. It brings forth some thoughts and ponderings about college music.

I should preface by saying that I've always had a bit of a chip on my shoulder when it comes to college degreed musicians, mainly because I'm not one of them - it's just not the path I took. I joined the Army, did the accelerated 6 month course at the School of Music at the Naval Amphibious base at Little Creek/Norfolk Virginia, and then proceeded to work as a player for the next 10 years as an active duty soldier musician. I learned by doing, and there was little patience for someone who wasn't coming up to speed musically, so it was sink or swim in shark-infested waters. I swam.

I've always believed that I would have come away a better player if I had gone the college route, but now I'm not so sure - college certainly didn't seem to help this kid. There isn't an ensemble I would recommend them for - they simply aren't good enough, but they now have a transcript and a diploma from a college music program. (To be fair, I have no idea if they have a degree in education or performance - I certainly hope it's not performance.)

So on to the questions:

1. Is this normal? Are there a lot of music students in college who just sort of get by, getting the grades they need and checking the boxes, but who never really become proficient as a player?

2. Where is the accountability of the institution? Does there not come a point in time where the professors and instructors should pull these kids aside, give them a heart-to-heart, and suggest they either get it together, or possibly pick up underwater basket weaving as major instead?

3. (related to 2) Where does the blame lie? There is now a degreed "musician" in the world who isn't ready at all for any kind of real work as a musician. Is it the fault of the student, or is it the fault of the professors who simply kicked the can down the road?

I feel like at some point someone should have pulled this kid aside for a reality check and suggested that they possibly pursue a different course of study.

I'm curious to hear some thoughts about this from other folks here on the board and especially those who did go through collegiate music programs.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 11:53 am    Post subject: Re: Ponderings About Collegiate Trumpet Programs Reply with quote

trickg wrote:
... but they now have a transcript and a diploma from a college music program. (To be fair, I have no idea if they have a degree in education or performance - I certainly hope it's not performance.) ...

--------------------------------------
Knowing the type of degree or certificate is critical to having an expectation about the person's playing ability.

In the case of a 'performance degree or certificate', the institution's (and teacher's) requirements and reputation are important. I imagine that some students are not allowed to continue along that path unless they show promise of being able to perform adequately.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 11:57 am    Post subject: Re: Ponderings About Collegiate Trumpet Programs Reply with quote

trickg wrote:
I feel like at some point someone should have pulled this kid aside for a reality check and suggested that they possibly pursue a different course of study.

As a non-professional it's not really my place to answer these questions, but there's one thing I'd like to share.

Back when I was finishing high school, I auditioned for a college pre-cursor program to become a professional musican. After the audtion was over, the feedback they gave me is something I'll never forget. They said that they weren't selecting me, not because I didn't have what it took, but rather they only selected those they felt could become best of the best, because that's what was needed to earn a living as a professional musician. They were kind but brutally honest and I thank them for it, because in hindsight I didn't have the drive needed to succeed (and to be frank, I don't think I have the talent either).

I don't think that you're any less just because you didn't take the college route...different maybe, but certainly not less. The path of life is a strange one and we never know which route will lead us where. The conventional road isn't always the one that leads to the best results, and your skills and achievements are still your own...regardless of how you acquired them.
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trickg
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I get what you're saying - I do wonder about which college you're referring to. I know that certain conservatories are pretty strict about who they'll accept. This kid I referenced above was at a state university, so suffice it to say, the reputation of the university isn't dependent upon the musicians they do or don't produce.

I know that there are also a lot of different levels a person can play at and still gig. I've been VERY fortunate in my life to have gotten the opportunities I did - I've gigged alongside of world class players, not because I'm a world class player, but because I got lucky enough to just happen to get to be on a job with them.

I will say this too - comparatively, I was a better player by my Junior year of HS than this kid was at the end of their college career. That's just kind of sad - they spent a lot of time and money to wind up no better than a mediocre high school kid.
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epoustoufle
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 1:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You could ask the same question of practically any university degree - or in fact, any kind of teaching whatsoever.

The brutal truth is that "the best of the best" will almost certainly be self-taught and overcome their own difficulties, or possibly just be the 1-in-a-1000 that have a perfect physicality or temperament for whatever skill is required.

So, in one sense, teachers are all frauds. But in another sense, they can save you 10 years of hard knocks with a few tricks and give you a model of what "good" looks and sounds like.

If the teacher can't do, then the student is in for a world of pain. I work at a university (not in music) and I can see plain as day that some of the profs are full of BS however they maintain this authority over the students, effectively forcing them to see a bad model every single day and be told that it is a good model. They call it gas-lighting these days, and hopefully the kids can catch on quicker...
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So. I'm not going to try to convince others who have already made up their (closed) minds. I'll just say that here are a few guys I went to UNIVERSITY with. One little three year time capsule in one place:
Dan Haerle
Lou Marini
Larry Ford
Billy Harper
Ed Soph
Bill Stapelton
Joe Rondazzo
etc. The list goes on. If you want to expand it in time, it would be pretty impressive and long.

I won't mention the >Clasical" players because their ties with formal training should be a given.

I've worked most of my career with the "unschooled" as well as those with formal educations. The only thing that counted was how they blew and, in my experience, a formal education didn't hinder anyone at all.
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OldHorn
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For me, the most important part of college was the friendships made and how those friendships led to networking which lead to gigs.

I went to DePaul Univeristy in the mid 70's. At that time, the music school was located downtown Chicago on Jackson Blvd. In my junior year, I started making contacts with music production companies, which produced jingles. They started hiring me.

By senior year, I was getting a lot of calls for sessions, and they were coinciding with my classes. So I would go to class, and then get up and leave in the middle of it to go to a session. I would just get on the "L" on Wabash and take it to the north Loop where the studios were. Some of my teachers were resentful that I didn't make school the priority in my life.

But the way I looked at it, schooling should prepare you for a professional career, whether you want to be a teacher, symphony player or studio musician. The fact that my opportunity came early wasn't what I expected, but I seized that opportunity and turned it into a career. I quit school in the middle of my senior year to focus on sessions, for me it was the right decision.
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trickg
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OldHorn, you touched on something that a former teacher and mentor of mine once told me. To be clear, he was K-6 general music and chorus teacher, but he was also my accompanist for solo and ensemble competitions when I was in HS, along with having me do trumpet/organ stuff at the church where he was music director.

I lamented my lack of formal training to him on more than one occasion, but he always said that what I had done was not normal - his contention was that most people who wind up working as musicians first go to college so that they can become good enough to go work, but I had bypassed that and went straight to working as a musician. To be fair, when I first got in the Army, any solid HS player could get into the Army Band program - it wasn't nearly as competitive as it is now.

I also agree with the idea that it doesn't matter where you did or didn't study once you are on the gig - you have to let the horn do your talking for you at that point.
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Andy Cooper
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 7:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lots of things we don't know about the student. We can speculate - he may be a heck of an arranger and or great at choreographing spectacular half-time shows. Maybe you missed his Carnyx recital where he was really hot stuff. He might have a minor - in Music Business or Marketing.

Certainly if he was a pretty good education major, his ability in other areas could make his senior recital just a box to check.

Unless the college had a truly pathetic brass program, surely his ego did not survive his sophomore year. (Mine certainly didn't survive when two or three Vacchiano students showed up. Good grief. I think they had the entire Brant Etudes book memorized.)

The audition process assures you that he will not be playing in any major or minor symphony though with my luck he will show up in my summer community band and I will have to set my tuner to A 443 and buy some earplugs.

Quote:
"I feel like at some point someone should have pulled this kid aside for a reality check and suggested that they possibly pursue a different course of study."


Not enough information - that may very well have happened early on and he was guided into an education degree with a minor in real estate.

Quote:
"I've always believed that I would have come away a better player if I had gone the college route, but now I'm not so sure - college certainly didn't seem to help this kid. "


GIGO. The more you have to offer, the more good teachers and competitive fellow students can bring out in your playing.

Education is a multiplicative process not an additive one.

Sounds to me like you would have thrived.
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Brassnose
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To the OP: not talking music but natural sciences, but - most students getting by rather than trying to excel is the (unfortunate) reality in modern academic life. The goal for most (at least in Germany) is to finish some degree, marry, build a house next to their parents house and find a great paying job that never forces them to move. Needless to say it don’t work that way but I have given up trying to motivate people to look over the edge of their plate, as we say in German.

Some will excel, most won’t even try and feel good with it. This is from someone with 18 years of faculty experience at a Tier1/Tier 2 PhD granting school and current head of department.

The point is (as always) find people and settings you are comfortable with and push and support those showing the motivation and idealism to push their limits as much as you can. It’s not about talent, it’s about the willingness to work hard and be good. Support those who work hard and want to be good.
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trickg
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andy Cooper wrote:
Lots of things we don't know about the student. We can speculate - he may be a heck of an arranger and or great at choreographing spectacular half-time shows. Maybe you missed his Carnyx recital where he was really hot stuff. He might have a minor - in Music Business or Marketing.

Certainly if he was a pretty good education major, his ability in other areas could make his senior recital just a box to check.

Unless the college had a truly pathetic brass program, surely his ego did not survive his sophomore year. (Mine certainly didn't survive when two or three Vacchiano students showed up. Good grief. I think they had the entire Brant Etudes book memorized.)

The audition process assures you that he will not be playing in any major or minor symphony though with my luck he will show up in my summer community band and I will have to set my tuner to A 443 and buy some earplugs.

Quote:
"I feel like at some point someone should have pulled this kid aside for a reality check and suggested that they possibly pursue a different course of study."


Not enough information - that may very well have happened early on and he was guided into an education degree with a minor in real estate.

Quote:
"I've always believed that I would have come away a better player if I had gone the college route, but now I'm not so sure - college certainly didn't seem to help this kid. "


GIGO. The more you have to offer, the more good teachers and competitive fellow students can bring out in your playing.

Education is a multiplicative process not an additive one.

Sounds to me like you would have thrived.

The college has a decent enough brass program - I know at least one other player who graduated as a trumpet major from that institution - they are solid enough.

Also, I knew this kid by reputation and had a few interactions with them here and there - I don't think I'm assuming as much as you may think. I had a chance to hear them play firsthand a couple of times. Right now their facebook profile is full of pics of them posing with their trumpet - they are clearly proud of the fact that they play trumpet.

While you are absolutely correct that they may have other talents that they have cultivated in their matriculation, I know that in HS this kid was planning on having a career as a player.

Speaking of assuming, isn't it interesting that everyone always assumes a trumpet player is male.

In regard to my own formative years as a player post-high school, I think that possibly a college program would have filled in some gaps in what I was exposed to in regard to conservatory-type materials and instruction. I only had 6 months of "weekly" lessons at the Armed Forces School of Music - I say "weekly" because half of the time my instructor would bail on me so he could go to the gym or do something else, so I got about half of the lessons I should have. The remaining lessons....I'll credit him with teaching me a bit about phrasing, but he was no roadmap for anything else, partly because we didn't really mesh well as a student/teacher - I didn't particularly like him and I think the feeling was mutual.

In any case, when I graduated from the SOM, I was very fortunate to get dropped into a very good Army Band. At age 19 when I rolled through the door, I was probably at least 10-12 years younger than the next youngest trumpet player there, and they were all good. I had to work my butt off that first summer to come up to speed with those guys. Keep in mind, this was not a place designed to teach and learn - this was a place to gig, so the pace was fast and no one was about to slow down for the new kid. I certainly learned, but I had to learn on the fly, and I had to learn quickly.

I have always tried to keep an open mind when it comes to playing the horn, and there are a lot of "lessons" that aren't formal - any time two players talk shop about what things they work on in the practice room and why, that's a form of lesson if the other player takes that information and applies it to their own playing.

Some of the best lessons for trumpet I ever got came from drumming and percussion clinics.
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 10:58 pm    Post subject: Re: Ponderings About Collegiate Trumpet Programs Reply with quote

There's a lot to unpack here.

I'm not a professional player, but I've worked at the very fringes of it and have played with players who did go on to play professionally. I did go to school for music, graduated with a degree in education, but basically did the same things as the performance majors minus a few short classes on performance style. Technically, I think only the performance majors need to do half recitals, and a final full recital, but generally all of the music majors (performance or otherwise) full recitals - so I did as well.

I think you should let go of the chip on your shoulder. Going to college doesn't guarantee you'll be a good player or that you'll become a good player. It also won't prevent those things from happening.

I went to a private college with a large and well known music department. The standards for the top auditioned ensembles were quite high. There were music majors that didn't make it into those ensembles, sometimes until their senior year - maybe not at all, while non-majors sometimes got in as freshmen due to having excellent skills. It was very much a meritocracy, there was no free passes.

One of the more talented trumpet players of the recent years was two years ahead of me, went to the Cleveland Conservatory to study with Sachs, and despite auditioning for every orchestral opening for a few years, didn't get a job. He ended up auditioning for the Air Force Band and plays in the one in DC, last I knew.

Well as a freshman and sophomore, it became clear how much further I'd have to go to get to his level - as good as I was.

Anyway, there were music majors that weren't amazing players even at this college.

After college and teaching in a rural area for a few years, I moved to the metro area and took some lessons from the trumpet teacher at a local state school. It was interesting and useful, got exposed to some material that I hadn't been in my college. I eventually stopped taking lessons as I was busy teaching and playing in local (non-paying) ensembles, though I was slightly connected to the brass studio there by playing in the orchestra - which was a community/college ensemble.

Some of the majors at this institution were excellent players, some good, and some ok players. I played on a soprano's senior recital on a Bright Seraphim, because the trumpet studio was a bit thin on players that could do that sort of thing at the time.

trickg wrote:
1. Is this normal? Are there a lot of music students in college who just sort of get by, getting the grades they need and checking the boxes, but who never really become proficient as a player?

Sure. I'm not sure how many of these are performance majors, but this does happen.

Also, coming out of HS, I remember I auditioned for the local big university. I was warming up my slot and some guy who was also auditioning asked a me a few things. Apparently he thought I was a potential grad student, not a HS kid going into college. He got a little pale when he found that out.

Frankly, it's hard to know where you are in terms of your ability. Are you a big fish in a small pond? How good is the level in the pond? Maybe you're a small fish in a small pond? What if you've never visited other ponds?

I was fortunate that I had several players around that set a really high bar as to what was the standard and gave me a good idea of where I'd need to get to in order to think about being a professional player. Maybe it should have inspired me, got me to really lift my game even more, but I guess I wasn't super committed to the idea. I think if I had been on that path, professors at that school would have been fairly honest with me as far as how I was progressing. I still left with lots of excellent skills and was at a fairly near level to being a professional player.

trickg wrote:
2. Where is the accountability of the institution? Does there not come a point in time where the professors and instructors should pull these kids aside, give them a heart-to-heart, and suggest they either get it together, or possibly pick up underwater basket weaving as major instead?

This is a good question and somewhere I read about how many colleges and conservatories just pump out graduates and flood the market with aspiring players at a rate this is completely disproportionate to how many jobs there actually are out there.

However, the institutions don't really care that much. They're getting the student's money, they're paying their bills, they're graduating students. They're giving the students what they want, after all. It's possible that individual professors will be frank with their students, but the institution as a whole isn't too worried about the situation.

You're bringing up good points, ones that have complicated answers that really go into the heart of higher education in this country.
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Brassnose
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 11:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I’d like to follow up on the accountability question. Now I can only speak for me and a few colleagues but we DO pull the kids aside (newest case was yesterday, in fact) and try to get them thinking. Sometimes it works, sometimes not.

As for suggesting other majors and the like, we can only suggest … as long as they pass their exams, even with the minimum points necessary, there is nothing we can do.
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Trumpetingbynurture
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 11:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ultimately it's up to the individual how far they can take their playing. Which depends on how hard they work, their talent, their indutry connections, their IQ, their access to good teachers etc.

But it's not like having a degree = getting a job. This is true for virtually everything now. When I look at job adverts where I am, an entry level job that someone doesn't need a degree to be able to work out. Usually the advert will say that the candidate should have degree + minimum 2 years experience in a similar role.
For a job that is paying entry level wages. A job that any person of average intelligence could work out in less than a month with some training and googling.

Anyway, my point is that having a qualification doesn't mean anything these days. It's just another way to separate potential employees when you have too many applications to reasonably process.

In the music world, the only qualification people care about is your playing. They want to hear you play and see proof you've played to a suitable standard before. No one looks and see "Studied at X" and then completely ignores your playing if you sound like trash. Sure, that might get you an audition, but it wont get you a job.

So at the end of the day, it make little difference. A person wants to spend money going to college and learning the trumpet, that's up to them. Not all learning has to be about getting a job.

I think the real conversation here is whether a great deal of college students wouldn't be better of studying privately for several years than doing a music degree. In most cases you can purchase the equivalent education much more afforadbly outside of a college. The price of a degree buys a lot of private lessons with even the most expensive teachers.
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trickg
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2021 4:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are places where it's not just your playing that will land you the gig. I know that in certain premier military band organizations, regardless of your audition recording, an undergrad degree is a prerequisite - they won't take your packet seriously without it, and often times when going through the submission packets, it's made up of folks with graduate degrees, the occasional doctorate degree, or folks who are actively working on a doctorate.

I'd have no prayer of getting into the premier band gig I did more than successfully for 7 years. And keep in mind, this is to play BUGLE, march, and stand on a parade field. (To be fair, they do also have a baroque trumpet ensemble now that is quite good.)

Bringing this back around to that recital video, I wonder where it went wrong. It's possible that this kid simply peaked to what their level of talent allowed, but so many of the basics were completely lacking. What were they working on in the practice room for 4 years? Even when I was in high school I understood the need to work through exercises, but not only that, I knew that the point of the exercises were to play them over and over until they were as perfect as they could be, every time. It wasn't THAT I was doing the work, but it was also HOW I was doing the work. I also understood that drilling the technique allowed me to be better at executing the music I performed.

I think maybe this kid missed that memo somewhere along the way. I think that there are some people who think that the mere act of doing something will equate to success, but that's never the case. I just feel bad for them that their recital went so poorly. If I had been that unprepared going into it, I'd have cancelled/postponed it.
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2021 6:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

trickg wrote:
It's possible that this kid simply peaked to what their level of talent allowed, but so many of the basics were completely lacking. What were they working on in the practice room for 4 years? Even when I was in high school I understood the need to work through exercises, but not only that, I knew that the point of the exercises were to play them over and over until they were as perfect as they could be, every time. It wasn't THAT I was doing the work, but it was also HOW I was doing the work. I also understood that drilling the technique allowed me to be better at executing the music I performed.

I have news for you. Lots of people don't know that. It's not just this one kid.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2021 7:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

Bringing this back around to that recital video, I wonder where it went wrong. It's possible that this kid simply peaked to what their level of talent allowed, but so many of the basics were completely lacking. What were they working on in the practice room for 4 years? Even when I was in high school I understood the need to work through exercises, but not only that, I knew that the point of the exercises were to play them over and over until they were as perfect as they could be, every time. It wasn't THAT I was doing the work, but it was also HOW I was doing the work. I also understood that drilling the technique allowed me to be better at executing the music I performed.


I have to point out that we're missing a lot of context about the anonymous person so no one really knows what the deal is.

Possibly they were having a bad day, but uploaded it to youtube because they wanted to send it to their folks and forgot to make it private.

Perhaps they had gone through some sort of ordeal, and for them, right at that moment, what you saw was a genuine achievement. Like someone who is recovering from Focal Dystonia or whatever should rightly be proud of their recovery even if it's not perfect.

Possibly they have undiagonsed ADHD and so they've never really been able to get a handle on the repetitive, orderly, methodical practice that yields results.

Possibly they just had bad teachers who told them they were doing great simply because they didn't have the ability to fix them and it was easier to leave the student in fantasy land until they graduate.

The main point being that there are lots of possible reasons where this is not really their fault per se. (And you can get pretty Meta about this as well).

As someone who went through hell early on with the trumpet, and took a long time to (re)develop anything resembling a stable embouchure, I'm always very hestitant to jump to conclusions about someone's 'potential'. I had a bad start on the instrument, didn't have the guidance I needed to fix it, and everything I did on my own initiative made the problem worse until I literally couldn't play three notes in a row without messing at least one of them up... I had to stop for several years and start over entirely. Which rather than making things better meant I had he same confused muscle memory but no embouchure strength anymore. It took a good 3 years of doing exercises for a stable embouchure to form. It was hell. (Fortunately, I had other musical abilities and did my music degree in something else). There's no way you'd ever know from my playing now that I'd gone through that hell.

Hopefully the person you mentioned has their own journey of discovery ahead of them, or they find their niche where they are useful to others.

Quote:
an undergrad degree is a prerequisite - they won't take your packet seriously without it

Sure, the degree might get you an audition. But it's still the playing that counts. Unless everyone else is worse, then you still wont get the job, you'll just waste everyone's time with the audition.
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2021 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just ran across this post, despite replying to this thread earlier.

epoustoufle wrote:
You could ask the same question of practically any university degree - or in fact, any kind of teaching whatsoever.

The brutal truth is that "the best of the best" will almost certainly be self-taught and overcome their own difficulties, or possibly just be the 1-in-a-1000 that have a perfect physicality or temperament for whatever skill is required.

So, in one sense, teachers are all frauds. But in another sense, they can save you 10 years of hard knocks with a few tricks and give you a model of what "good" looks and sounds like.

I can't even begin to say how completely wrong this entire part is.

Sure, there are a few players that are just innately good, but even those usually have some guidance and need some teaching. The idea that most successful musicians are "self taught" is complete and utter bollocks regardless of instrument or genre. That goes for vocalists as well.
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HaveTrumpetWillTravel
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2021 9:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

With military bands, I wonder why they are so much more competitive now? Is it that the other traditional playing avenues have suffered so badly that more performers are chasing fewer jobs? (Sorry--I know this is an aside. I was just curious about it from reading the posts.)

I'm a comeback player so my teachers are usually drawn from local trumpet players who did something music related in college and they also perform on trumpet. One did music ed and plays jazz at bars. Another did performance at the beginning but switched to audio engineering. In most cases, these players are really solid in one area, but not in others. The jazz guy doesn't do anything classical, transpose, play C trumpet, etc. The audio engineer knows all the fundamental basics and is pretty excellent at marching music, but not as helpful on jazz/improv type stuff. The player may be like this--perhaps fine with one or more types of ensemble playing but terrible as a soloist.

College in general is often now described as a "sorting machine." Finishing the degree is often a marker employers use even when it doesn't make a lot of sense for the given job. A lot of jobs now are a mix of credential and performance (you need a masters degree to be a librarian, etc.). My guess is the program this person was in was not super competitive and that the music program was happy to have majors even if they won't be competitive for competitive music jobs. If you find out the story on the student in broad strokes, let us know. Very curious what they are doing post-graduation.
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2021 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HaveTrumpetWillTravel wrote:
My guess is the program this person was in was not super competitive and that the music program was happy to have majors even if they won't be competitive for competitive music jobs.

That's a good point. Some departments are just happy for students just to remain relevant. Professors with no students are generally in trouble.
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