• FAQ  • Search  • Memberlist  • Usergroups   • Register   • Profile  • Log in to check your private messages  • Log in 

ConnSonic acoustic treatment


Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Horns
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
interfx
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 25 Dec 2001
Posts: 678
Location: Atlanta, GA

PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 1:10 pm    Post subject: ConnSonic acoustic treatment Reply with quote

I'm sure some of you have seen the new Artist Select program by Conn-Selmer/Bach.

https://select.conn-selmer.com/

I'm curious if anyone knows the various items/areas they adjust in the "ConnSonic acoustic treatment"? I don't want to know how they do it, that may be confidential, but what they are actually doing? valve alignments? gap adjustments, ...
_________________
------
trumpetLINKS: https://www.trumpetLINKS.com
BachLoyalist: https://www.bachloyalist.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
royjohn
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 12 Jan 2005
Posts: 2272
Location: Knoxville, Tennessee

PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If it's anything like other acoustic treatments of the past, there will be a lot of hype, no specific info and absolutely no scientific data. Caveat emptor. Recall that the placebo effect is huge. Percival Lowell was a famous astronomer, scientifically trained, who was absolutely convinced there were canals on Mars...
_________________
royjohn
Trumpets: 1928 Holton Llewellyn Model, 1957 Holton 51LB, 2010 Custom C by Bill Jones, 2011 Custom D/Eb by Bill Jones
Flugels: 1975 Olds Superstar, 1970's Elkhardt, 1970's Getzen 4 valve
Cornet: 1970's Yamaha YCR-233S . . . and others . . .
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
LittleRusty
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 12647
Location: Gardena, Ca

PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The term appears to have been trademarked by Conn-Selmer recently.
Here is a blurb on the trademark. No details though.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
royjohn
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 12 Jan 2005
Posts: 2272
Location: Knoxville, Tennessee

PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So no info as to whether this is cryo treatment (which was never shown to actually improve a horn in a double blind test iirc), annealing, stress free assembly or ???

C'mon, Conn, you can do better than that...
_________________
royjohn
Trumpets: 1928 Holton Llewellyn Model, 1957 Holton 51LB, 2010 Custom C by Bill Jones, 2011 Custom D/Eb by Bill Jones
Flugels: 1975 Olds Superstar, 1970's Elkhardt, 1970's Getzen 4 valve
Cornet: 1970's Yamaha YCR-233S . . . and others . . .
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
LittleRusty
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 12647
Location: Gardena, Ca

PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

royjohn wrote:
So no info as to whether this is cryo treatment (which was never shown to actually improve a horn in a double blind test iirc), annealing, stress free assembly or ???

C'mon, Conn, you can do better than that...

I will admit that the lack of info is disappointing. Especially since they are including it in their marketing materials.

But if you looked at the trademark application you can make a few guesses.

“Musical instruments and components; musical instruments and components, with treatments, features or components that enhance sonic quality and playability; components and inserts for musical instruments to enhance sonic quality and playability; components of musical instruments treated to enhance sonic quality and playability; brass inserts for musical instruments to enhance sonic quality and playability; accessories for musical instruments, n...

Treatment of musical instruments, components and accessories; treatment of musical instruments, components and accessories to enhance sonic quality and playability”
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
royjohn
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 12 Jan 2005
Posts: 2272
Location: Knoxville, Tennessee

PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Little Rusty wrote:

Quote:
But if you looked at the trademark application you can make a few guesses.


Yeah, I made my guesses in my post, but IDK which of them, if any, are correct. If you're selling something, shouldn't you provide something more than fluff in your information?

I'm not buying one of these anyway, so it's academic to me, but just sayin'...
_________________
royjohn
Trumpets: 1928 Holton Llewellyn Model, 1957 Holton 51LB, 2010 Custom C by Bill Jones, 2011 Custom D/Eb by Bill Jones
Flugels: 1975 Olds Superstar, 1970's Elkhardt, 1970's Getzen 4 valve
Cornet: 1970's Yamaha YCR-233S . . . and others . . .
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
LittleRusty
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 12647
Location: Gardena, Ca

PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

royjohn wrote:
Little Rusty wrote:

Quote:
But if you looked at the trademark application you can make a few guesses.


Yeah, I made my guesses in my post, but IDK which of them, if any, are correct. If you're selling something, shouldn't you provide something more than fluff in your information?

I'm not buying one of these anyway, so it's academic to me, but just sayin'...

I don’t disagree at all. But think of Barnum or snake oil salesmen in the past.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
royjohn
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 12 Jan 2005
Posts: 2272
Location: Knoxville, Tennessee

PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LIttleRusty wrote:

Quote:
I don’t disagree at all. But think of Barnum or snake oil salesmen in the past.


Wow! Yeah, it looks like we agree...are you feeling OK?

LOL!

Really, tho', always appreciate your forthright opinions...
_________________
royjohn
Trumpets: 1928 Holton Llewellyn Model, 1957 Holton 51LB, 2010 Custom C by Bill Jones, 2011 Custom D/Eb by Bill Jones
Flugels: 1975 Olds Superstar, 1970's Elkhardt, 1970's Getzen 4 valve
Cornet: 1970's Yamaha YCR-233S . . . and others . . .
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
yourbrass
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 12 Jun 2011
Posts: 3619
Location: Pacifica, CA, USA

PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 7:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"“ brass inserts for musical instruments to enhance sonic quality and playability; accessories for musical instruments,'

There's one clue - "inserts."

The only other word I could pick up on was "treatment."

Other than those, it's generic, opaque language.
_________________
"Strive for tone." -John Coppola
Edwards X-13
ACB MV3C /ACB A1/26 backbore
https://yourbrass.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
JayKosta
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 24 Dec 2018
Posts: 3275
Location: Endwell NY USA

PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 8:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

From info about the AC190S trumpet
( https://www.conn-selmer.com/en-us/instruments/band-instruments/trumpets/ac190s )

It doesn't specifically mention CONNSONIC , but it does mention 'special acoustic treatment' -

"Each Artisan C trumpet is made with a one-piece hand-hammered yellow brass bell with a flat rim and special acoustic treatment in both material and manufacturing process resulting in a beautiful Bach Stradivarius sound with a larger core and a broader range of color."

From the wording at the trademark site, it seems to me that Conn was simply mentioning VARIOUS items that they want to have covered by the trademark - not a list of specific items that are currently being used, or which are planned to be used.

I think that 'inserts' are on the list only to have them covered by the trademark in case they are ever used.
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Shawnino
Veteran Member


Joined: 27 Jun 2020
Posts: 255

PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Conn job jokes practically write themselves.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
TrumpetMD
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 22 Oct 2008
Posts: 2410
Location: Maryland

PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

royjohn wrote:
If it's anything like other acoustic treatments of the past, there will be a lot of hype, no specific info and absolutely no scientific data.

Yep, all hype and no evidence, unlike the constant pitch center, blueprinting, and valve alignments.

Mike
_________________
Bach Stradivarius 43* Trumpet (1974), Bach 6C Mouthpiece.
Bach Stradivarius 184 Cornet (1988), Yamaha 13E4 Mouthpiece
Olds L-12 Flugelhorn (1969), Yamaha 13F4 Mouthpiece.
Plus a few other Bach, Getzen, Olds, Carol, HN White, and Besson horns.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
JayKosta
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 24 Dec 2018
Posts: 3275
Location: Endwell NY USA

PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 10:10 am    Post subject: Re: ConnSonic acoustic treatment Reply with quote

interfx wrote:
I'm sure some of you have seen the new Artist Select program by Conn-Selmer/Bach.

https://select.conn-selmer.com/ ...

--------------------
It looks like the ConnSonic treatment is only for the 'Artist Reserve' (different from Artist Select?) - but I wasn't able to find any further mention on that page or a general google search about 'conn artist reserve'.
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
yourbrass
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 12 Jun 2011
Posts: 3619
Location: Pacifica, CA, USA

PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 10:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the greatest tragedy in American brass instrument history was the destroying of the Conn (the real Conn) Corp's. archive by MacMillan in 1970.
They had the most advanced R & D department I've ever read about. That kind of research would be endlessly fascinating to read.
_________________
"Strive for tone." -John Coppola
Edwards X-13
ACB MV3C /ACB A1/26 backbore
https://yourbrass.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Divitt Trumpets
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 11 Aug 2015
Posts: 519
Location: Toronto

PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have heard of vibrations and frequencies used to enhance/change/adjust the sound characteristics of wooden instruments. This could be their adaptation of it. Whether there's any science behind it or not, I do not know.

They could be blasting them with a resonant frequency to really get the instrument vibrating to stress or relax the metals.
_________________
www.divitt-trumpets.com
www.facebook.com/divitt.trumpets
www.instagram.com/divitttrumpets
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Tuningbell
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 30 Dec 2004
Posts: 521
Location: Toronto, Canada

PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Could we all be over thinking this? Maybe they are just cleaning up the solder joints, scoping the instrument and adjusting port alignment to make sure it is 100% accurate to the blueprint specifications. Isn’t this what Flip Oakes was doing with his instruments when received from Kanstul? The Wild Thing was optimized for performance by meticulously verifying all of the horn’s tolerances and manufacturing accuracy. I find it shameful that a company like Conn Selmer has to charge a premium to make an instrument correctly. To Flips credit he had a contractor make the horn but he verified it was correct to the specs. Similarly Osmun’s blueprint service gives an owner the opportunity to correct manufacturing deficiencies. Flips total enhancement was available to any make an model if my memory is accurate. Conn Selmer could be rebranding this level of quality manufacturing as a secondary in house quality control called the “connsonic” treatment. If a horn is perfect off the line it needs nothing. Ship it anywhere. A good Strad is a good Strad always has been. If it’s not fix it and charge a premium after play tested by a “pedigreed pro ”. Or, ship it to a small market and sell a local pro or student a “dog” of a horn. Either way Conn Selmer makes full margin. Shameful marketing tactic. People have for years been rebuilding their Bach horns to get them to be exactly right. Conn-Selmer might have figured out that this is a way to get that money from the buyer instead of having it directed to outside companies like Osmun, Flip, Malone conversions… the list goes on and on.

Last edited by Tuningbell on Mon Sep 20, 2021 8:44 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Crazy Finn
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 27 Dec 2001
Posts: 8331
Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota

PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yourbrass wrote:
I think the greatest tragedy in American brass instrument history was the destroying of the Conn (the real Conn) Corp's. archive by MacMillan in 1970.
They had the most advanced R & D department I've ever read about. That kind of research would be endlessly fascinating to read.

That is a huge shame.
_________________
LA Benge 3X Bb Trumpet
Selmer Radial Bb Trumpet
Yamaha 6335S Bb Trumpet
Besson 709 Bb Trumpet
Bach 184L Bb Cornet
Yamaha 731 Bb Flugelhorn
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Andy Cooper
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 15 Nov 2001
Posts: 1803
Location: Terre Haute, IN USA

PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 7:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This program is absolute genius. It must have been a joint effort by managers with degrees in marketing, finance, quality assurance, and theology.

[QC manager] We have a problem - people complain that there is too much variation in our products. We could fix this with company wide QC training and by upgrading some machinery. In the long run the cost of the program would pay for itself since non conforming product adds a sizeable amount to costs. Right now we have to do 100% inspection then grade the products.

[Finance]The short term costs of the program and improvements are too great. We have to focus on the next quarter's bottom line.

[Marketing] I have an idea - instead of viewing variation as a problem - we present it as a feature... We take the "A" grade horns and separate them into two groups. One group "A" we leave as is, the other group "A+" we do precision valve alignments, double check gap, use the Smith-Watkins "sonar" test to check for solder globs, bevel some slides, round out bell bows,check for water key burrs, anneal the metal valve guides, do an ultrasonic clean then cryo treat the horn. Then we have well know trumpet players play the "A" and "A+" horns and rate them for various attributes. We give the buyer a signed certificate - maybe even a video of the testing. We can charge a nice premium for the service.

[QC manager] Won't the "A+" horns almost surely get better ratings?

Marketing] Oh - I guess so.

[Theology] Predestination!!!

[QC manager] [Marketing] [Finance] Huh??

[Finance] Say - with the signed artist's approval certificate we would actually be giving the buyer real "value added'. The certificate would add a considerable amount to the future resale price of the instrument.

[Marketing] Really? Never thought of that.

[QC manger] Sigh....


Last edited by Andy Cooper on Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:22 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Andy Cooper
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 15 Nov 2001
Posts: 1803
Location: Terre Haute, IN USA

PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 7:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yourbrass wrote:
I think the greatest tragedy in American brass instrument history was the destroying of the Conn (the real Conn) Corp's. archive by MacMillan in 1970.
They had the most advanced R & D department I've ever read about. That kind of research would be endlessly fascinating to read.


At least some of the research still exists in the published work of the acousticians and in patents. If my memory is correct, Conn management did not enthusiastically support all R & D in acoustics...

Where I live, trumpet players gather once a year to honor Benade for his development of the "tacet horn" - a clarinet, that with great difficulty, could but squawk a bit. Why Conn failed to put the "tacet horn" into full production is beyond me.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
OldSchoolEuph
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 07 Apr 2012
Posts: 2426

PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andy Cooper wrote:
[QC manager] ... We could fix this with company wide QC training and by upgrading some machinery. ...

[Finance]The short term costs of the program and improvements are too great. We have to focus on the next quarter's bottom line.


This is a complete misrepresentation of what has been going on at Bach since they were taken private. There has been a massive investment in new CNC and robotic equipment for those tasks in which consistency is beneficial. QC standards have never been tighter in the history of the company and the volume of rejects for rework and scrap visible on carts at every station is unlike anything I have seen in 30+ years in industry - not just because of volume, but because of the tiny or invisible imperfections rejected that global manufacturers would never flag.

Andy Cooper wrote:
[Marketing] I have an idea - instead of viewing variation as a problem - we present it as a feature...


No, it was Vincent Bach who viewed it as a feature. He was a boutique builder, not a mass-producer, and he fully intended that the horns have personalities - just like the customers, Finding the right fit was about finding a horn that's not close, but rather perfect - and that is always a horn, not a model.

Bach today continues his vision, looking to achieve the highest possible consistency where variation can only detract, and then looking for the effect of hand work on those elements like valve fit, slide fit, buffing, gap, etc. that subtly alter the characteristics of blow, response and color.
_________________
Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com

2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Horns All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group