• FAQ  • Search  • Memberlist  • Usergroups   • Register   • Profile  • Log in to check your private messages  • Log in 

Learning to use "lead" mouthpieces



 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Mouthpieces
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Shoe
Regular Member


Joined: 06 Mar 2016
Posts: 26

PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 7:06 pm    Post subject: Learning to use "lead" mouthpieces Reply with quote

Hello all,
I am looking to learn how to use lead trumpet mouthpieces. I have been getting into playing lead stuff and it has been a fun change of pace from orchestral excerpts and the like. However, I think my equipment choice is questionable.
I have been playing on a pickett 1.5c/24 on a warburton 6 for a while, and that feels really comfortable for my face. I have a consistent E above the staff with this setup and can squeak up to a G/A above that, though airy and small.

My face gets pretty tired hanging out in the high range on this, and though its funny to see other player's reactions of horror when they realize I have been doing an entire lead set on my "orchestral" mouthpiece, I think I am being very inefficient and could play better in this specific area with a mouthpiece adjustment.

Through various trumpet purchases I have acquired a pile of "lead" mouthpieces from various makes and can barely make sounds on any of them. The most usable of the bunch is a curry 1.25z, which I lose a few notes of range on but at least there is a semblance of tone there, likely because the diameter feels more similar to my 1.5c than the other mouthpieces. I also have a yamaha 16c4 and a bach 1.25c that feels better in the high range but dont really help my face feel any better after playing high for a while.

I know this may seem like a standard "young person asks about a special high note mouthpiece" question, but I cant seem to make a lead mouthpiece work (though, strangely, I can rip some double petal notes on them). I am really at a loss. I am an okay player with my "normal" mouthpiece, I get paid to play and sub with a full on professional brass band in my area. I just
seem to sound like a 6th grader on anything shallower than a C cup.

Please do not give the stock "find a teacher" answer, I am working on that. I really need pointers on making these shallow mouthpieces work.
_________________
several horns
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Goby
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 11 Jun 2017
Posts: 641

PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 8:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Go to a smaller rim diameter, and work on playing soft and in the “meat” of the sound across your whole range with your shallow piece. I think a lot of people go overboard when they get a commercial/lead mouthpiece, especially when switching from an orchestral piece, and get something too shallow, but with a rim that is too large. Try something around a 5-7 rim and a D or E cup (slightly deeper than the more extreme “lead” mouthpieces). V-shaped cups are also good as your chops can roll out into the bowl without shutting off like in a bowl shaped cup. You could also try to find something with a cushion rim, as this will disperse the pressure on your chops more evenly and help your endurance when playing in the upper register.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
HERMOKIWI
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 24 Dec 2008
Posts: 2578

PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

High range is a technique thing, not a mouthpiece thing. Shallow cup mouthpieces give you a brighter sound than deep cup mouthpieces but they do not increase your range. That is the great fallacy of "lead" (shallow cup) mouthpieces. They are not working for you because mouthpieces do not do any work. The work is done by the player. If you have the correct embouchure and technique you can play high range on any mouthpiece that fits you.

Bill Watrous could play our double G and even higher on his trombone mouthpiece because he had the correct embouchure and technique to do that, not because of some special mouthpiece.

There is no "trick" to making any particular mouthpiece "work" for you in terms of range. Your embouchure and your technique are your embouchure and your technique. If those stay the same your results will stay the same. So, if you want a strong high register and you're not getting that now then you have to change something about your embouchure and technique.

Players who have not developed the embouchure and technique consistent with a strong high register typically top out where you are. So, your experience is normal. It's not the mouthpiece. You can't fix what you describe with any mouthpiece. You can fix it only with the correct embouchure and technique consistent with producing a strong high register.
_________________
HERMOKIWI
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
blbaumgarn
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 26 Jul 2017
Posts: 705

PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 8:17 pm    Post subject: learning to use "lead" mouthpieces Reply with quote

Lauren Bacall: "you know how to whistle, don't you? You just put your lips together and blow!"
_________________
"There are two sides to a trumpeter's personality,
there is one that lives to lay waste to woodwinds and strings, leaving them lie blue and lifeless along a swath of destruction that is a
trumpeter's fury-then there is the dark side!" Irving Bush
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Shaft
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 19 Sep 2006
Posts: 974

PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just a few thoughts from reading the post.

Lip protusion (some embouchures protrude into the cup more than others)

Same rim size and changing cup depths is easier
to transition than changing rim diameter personally.

Thin and airy up high…..
A few mechanics could help but tension
and lip separation are common culprits.

So sometimes thinking of maintaining “compression” and togetherness helps.

Shew speaks of a wedge technique for support.
Pops taught bringing the abs in.
Forward tongue arch can help.
Lip to lip compression too.

Lip set point helps also.

Try Setting for a g on top of the staff , then play an exercise.
(You relax for two octaves and compress for one)

Soft playing helps focus the sound and lip sensitivity. It helps the high
register. Loud playing has similarities to low notes. A session of 10-20
minutes with a tuner in the routine can do some some good things for
focusing the lips that can transition into your upper register.

This is not an exhaustive troubleshooting list but perhaps something useful.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
giakara
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 13 Jul 2003
Posts: 3826
Location: Greece

PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 11:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Learning to use "lead" mouthpieces Reply with quote

Shoe wrote:
Hello all,
I am looking to learn how to use lead trumpet mouthpieces. I have been getting into playing lead stuff and it has been a fun change of pace from orchestral excerpts and the like. However, I think my equipment choice is questionable.
I have been playing on a pickett 1.5c/24 on a warburton 6 for a while, and that feels really comfortable for my face. I have a consistent E above the staff with this setup and can squeak up to a G/A above that, though airy and small.

My face gets pretty tired hanging out in the high range on this, and though its funny to see other player's reactions of horror when they realize I have been doing an entire lead set on my "orchestral" mouthpiece, I think I am being very inefficient and could play better in this specific area with a mouthpiece adjustment.

Through various trumpet purchases I have acquired a pile of "lead" mouthpieces from various makes and can barely make sounds on any of them. The most usable of the bunch is a curry 1.25z, which I lose a few notes of range on but at least there is a semblance of tone there, likely because the diameter feels more similar to my 1.5c than the other mouthpieces. I also have a yamaha 16c4 and a bach 1.25c that feels better in the high range but dont really help my face feel any better after playing high for a while.

I know this may seem like a standard "young person asks about a special high note mouthpiece" question, but I cant seem to make a lead mouthpiece work (though, strangely, I can rip some double petal notes on them). I am really at a loss. I am an okay player with my "normal" mouthpiece, I get paid to play and sub with a full on professional brass band in my area. I just
seem to sound like a 6th grader on anything shallower than a C cup.

Please do not give the stock "find a teacher" answer, I am working on that. I really need pointers on making these shallow mouthpieces work.


Some very talented players across the world use big and deep mpcs to play lead and commercial stuff but the big majority use special equipment and mpcs including some of the heaviest names in the industry.
I use shallow mpcs in big diameter , I suggest you to keep the same diameter and start to reduce the cup depth until to find the one that it works for you , rim,throat and bbore is also a very important.
This is a very expensive sport and you must invest some money until you find the one.
Buy and shell used pieces is one good start and Reeves, Warburton, GR are some of the best brands out there.
Good luck.

Regards
_________________
Lawler TL5-1A Bb 2015
Lawler TL6-1A Bb 2004
Lawler TL5-1A Bb 2003
Getzen eterna 910 C
Getzen eterna 850 cornet
Selmer Paris 3 valve picc
Yamaha 731 flugel
Carol mini pocket
Reeves/Purviance mpcs
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
HaveTrumpetWillTravel
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 30 Jan 2018
Posts: 1020
Location: East Asia

PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 11:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here are two questions:

1. I'm curious what the pile of lead mouthpieces includes. Were they all larger rims and shallow cups?
2. 1.5 is a fairly large mouthpiece. Are you using this for anything else? If your music is largely non-orchestral, moving to a smaller rim/cup might make a difference for endurance and range.

I have a kanstul leadpiece based on a monette that I like. I definitely get some more notes on it. I've also tried the Bach 7e and Schilke 11ax for piccolo and they were pretty playable. It may be that you'd like something monette-like that's more open and has a bigger backbore, or that some of the smaller leadpieces would suit you better. Happy hunting!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Bryant Jordan
Veteran Member


Joined: 16 Aug 2015
Posts: 410
Location: Utah, USA

PostPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2021 12:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To the OP,

It’s all about finding the right lead piece. I’ve gone though so many shallow mouthpieces, and none of them have ever felt great until I tried the Marcinkiewics Bobby Shew 2. I bottom out on shallower pieces, and because of the v cup and depth of this piece, I don’t on this one, even though the cup volume is the same as a shallower C cup. The rim on this is super comfortable and seems to fit with my chops, and I can play full, loud, etc. from low F# to double G. The most important thing is that I sound great on this piece. Ive tried so many shallow pieces that give me a thin, immature sound whether I want to sound that way or not. I have a full, bright sound with this piece.

Anyways, keep trying pieces until you find one that really clicks with you. Good luck!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Seymor B Fudd
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 17 Oct 2015
Posts: 1459
Location: Sweden

PostPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2021 1:39 am    Post subject: Re: Learning to use "lead" mouthpieces Reply with quote

I used a Vincent Bach (1970) 1 1/4 C for concert band as well as for lead playing during 25 years. My range was up to G above high C (well sometimes) but - and I think this is crucial - the music we played was Swing (original arrangements) topping out on say Eb above high C, or sometimes E.
I was young, practicing say 20 -30 minutes a day. (And always dreamt of becoming able to practice several hours a day - to do justice to the music)
Getting older I found that I was helped by using more shallow mouthpieces when it comes to lead playing; same rim, same diameter (for a year or so I experimented with smaller diameter - such as Stork Studiomaster VM series - excellent stuff but too narrow for me). Today I use a Schilke 14B. It does not provide a better range, but better endurance.
As the posters here points out, most of the time you don´t get better range with "tighter" mpcs but I think endurance will get better.
One advantage of smaller diameter mouthpieces is that you are forced to focus your chops. Too shallow -as someone points out - you may botttom out. Or simply loose you low register. But this might be put right through practice. - I think it´s an art in itself to play tiny mouthpieces.
Flatter rims kill my chops - this is individual for sure ( i.e Schilke 15A) .

So - take small steps, use the same type of rim, go somewhat shallower; V cups might be the answer. And - practice a lot........in a clever way. Ain´t nothing better for your embouchure! Too little practice means getting a tired face.
And - besides good enough practicing there is this technique thing: without the proper 'trick´you will end up in pressing too much thereby stalling the vibrations. You´ll find tons of suggestions here on the High Range department.
And the mandatory commentary: this works for me. Maybe not for you!
_________________
Cornets:
Getzen Custom Series Schilke 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Yamaha YCR6330II
Getzen Eterna Eb
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1974)


Last edited by Seymor B Fudd on Fri Oct 01, 2021 2:10 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Dayton
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 24 Mar 2013
Posts: 1991
Location: USA

PostPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2021 3:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I cant seem to make a lead mouthpiece work


If you have an embouchure set up that involves a lot of lip protruding into the cup -- which seems fairly common for those who use large volume mouthpieces -- then switching to a shallower lead-type mouthpiece can be a challenge. You need to find a way to get less upper lip into the cup. That means changing your setup, perhaps just slightly. It will require some experimentation to figure out what works.

As for the mouthpiece itself, if the Pickett 1.5C cup is working for you, then try a gradual transition: Pickett C to CD to D and then shallower if desired (DE then E). That can help you make the change in your set up happen more naturally.

Separately, I wonder if there is a mismatch between the 1.5C/24 cup and the Warburton 6 backbore (which I think is set up for a 27 throat). Might be something to look into. I use a Warburton NY backbore occasionally with my Pickett 1.5D, so the Pickett - Warburton combo can work fine, but a mismatch between the throat sizes on the cup and backbore may not be helping you. Good luck!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Vin DiBona
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 24 Dec 2003
Posts: 1473
Location: OHare area

PostPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2021 4:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you can find it, one of Bobby Shew's many articles gives a direct answer to this question.
The writing is called Switching Mouthpieces Process.
It is much too long to type out here and it explains the rather simple process of going from a larger mouthpiece to a smaller "lead" type mouthpiece.
In a nutshell, he states you must practice each one individually with your mind absolutely set on what you want to accomplish on that mouthpiece.
It goes much deeper, but if you can find this writing, it will make switching much easier.
R. Tomasek
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
trickg
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 02 Jan 2002
Posts: 5675
Location: Glen Burnie, Maryland

PostPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2021 4:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dayton wrote:
Quote:
I cant seem to make a lead mouthpiece work


If you have an embouchure set up that involves a lot of lip protruding into the cup -- which seems fairly common for those who use large volume mouthpieces -- then switching to a shallower lead-type mouthpiece can be a challenge. You need to find a way to get less upper lip into the cup. That means changing your setup, perhaps just slightly. It will require some experimentation to figure out what works.

^^ This x1000.

When I was in roughly 8th or 9th grade, a buddy of mine brought in the ubiquitous Schilke 14A4a. When I was coming up through the ranks, there were two primary mouthpieces that got sold to students as lead/screamer mouthpieces:

Bach 10.5C
Schilke 14A4a

My first impression on the 14A4a was that I was able to play a few notes pretty easily, but that was it - in almost no time my buzz and sound got cut off with a "thhhhhwwwwppp!" The reason is just what Dayton said - lips were protruding/collapsing into the cup.

Fast forward 10-12 years, and I'm playing in a Latin band, and trying to make it work on my Marcinkiewicz #2, which is not a small mouthpiece. I had a 14A4a in my case that a friend had given me to try to use a piccolo trumpet I'd bought, but I didn't have lot of success with it for the same reason mentioned above. It wasn't as bad as in high school, but the same problem persisted.

Then one night I rolled in to the gig, opened my case, and my Marcinkiewicz mouthpiece wasn't in it - I'd left it with my bugle back on Fort Myer. (I was in the Old Guard Fife & Drum Corps at the time) By that point I didn't have time to run over to the base to get it, so I had to make that Schilke mouthpiece work. The first set was ROUGH. By the end of the gig I was making it work, and from that point on, it was my main mouthpiece for the Latin band.

I suggest that if you are going to try to make a lead mouthpiece work, you're going to have to work to learn to use it. That means that you should practice using only the lead mouthpiece you choose for a while. Once you get acclimated to it, you should be able to switch back and forth.

It's going to take some time and take some work - like virtually everything else with trumpet, there is no secret, tip or words of wisdom - you're going to have to take the time to work it out in the practice room, and it's probably going to take a few weeks before you're able to successfully move back and forth.
_________________
Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
- Brasspire Unicorn C
- ACB Doubler

"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
kehaulani
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 23 Mar 2003
Posts: 8965
Location: Hawai`i - Texas

PostPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2021 7:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is another factor to playing lead which has nothing to do with equipment but is vital - play with the right sound concept.

I was doing a recording gig years ago and the lead player next to me kept shouting "Louder, louder". I was squeezing my guts out, doing the best I said, and it still wasn't enough. I yelled back at him, "I can hardly hear you".

After we played, I asked him what our differences were. He said "Concept". I was going for a full round sound and he said he thought of the sound as a corkscrew, drilling right into the mike. When I listened to the playback. his sound was clear and projecting. Concepts may vary, but make sure you are using the appropriate one.

The other one is projecting. This is a another topic and you can research it yourself, but I just want to note it. "Projection" is not synonymous with "Loudness".
_________________
"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird

Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Getzen Capri Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
AndyDavids
Veteran Member


Joined: 08 Jun 2020
Posts: 176

PostPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2021 10:10 am    Post subject: Re: Learning to use "lead" mouthpieces Reply with quote

oops...double post!

Last edited by AndyDavids on Fri Sep 24, 2021 10:19 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
AndyDavids
Veteran Member


Joined: 08 Jun 2020
Posts: 176

PostPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2021 10:18 am    Post subject: Re: Learning to use "lead" mouthpieces Reply with quote

Shoe wrote:
I really need pointers on making these shallow mouthpieces work.
Many good responses so far, but I'm gonna take it in a different direction...
Being a Warburton player, I have noticed that what works for me is changing the backbore- not necessarily the cup sometimes.
I use the same rim but have found that some backbores work MUCH better for commercial playing. I can use a medium cup (6M) with a 6 bb for classical and then just changing to the Q makes a HUGE difference in sound and feel!
Some stock shallow cup pieces (not all) have backbores that are way too open and might not match the horn well.
My 2 cents...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Jaw04
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 31 Dec 2015
Posts: 898
Location: California

PostPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2021 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For me I had to learn to use less air and a more relaxed middle of the embouchure. Imagine a G on top of the staff is like playing a mezzo piano G in the staff. Do not overblow, it will light up just fine with a relaxed air stream. Focus your playing on the top half of your range while you are figuring out the lead piece. It can mess with your mechanics if you are trying to play low notes or loud notes on a smaller piece. Add them in later.

Larger mouthpieces take more embouchure strength, firm corners, etc. If you're too firmed up around the middle of the chops on a lead piece, it will not respond. The mechanics and tongue arc should not be over-exaggerated. Doing some slow controlled glissandos and lip slurs will help you find where the upper register notes are.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
cbtj51
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 24 Nov 2015
Posts: 722
Location: SE US

PostPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2021 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HERMOKIWI wrote:
High range is a technique thing, not a mouthpiece thing. Shallow cup mouthpieces give you a brighter sound than deep cup mouthpieces but they do not increase your range. That is the great fallacy of "lead" (shallow cup) mouthpieces. They are not working for you because mouthpieces do not do any work. The work is done by the player. If you have the correct embouchure and technique you can play high range on any mouthpiece that fits you.


+1
Agreed! When I found the right setup in a Reeves 41S695 (.215 avg. Cup depth), it was my daily driver for lead in Big Bands and Latin for several decades until I got a regular Rock and Roll horn gig that had a lot of solo demands that required a fatter sound. K. O. Skinsnes was still at Reeves when I called for help and he made a change recommendation to a Reeves 41C692 (.268 avg. Cup depth). Once I made that transition, I found the "fatter" sound I was looking for, but this piece worked equally well for everything including Big Band lead and quickly became my utility piece. I knew the sound I was looking for and found it in this setup and never went back to the shallower piece. I am currently transitioning to a Reeves 41B692 (.305 avg Cup depth) to get the orchestral sound that I need at this point in time. I turned 70 a couple of weeks ago, so I take advantage of all the assistance I can get! Sound concept plays a Huge roll in making all of this work. Note that the rim is common across the board. That's a bigger deal to me than cup depth.

I am not making a mouthpiece recommendation, but a sound concept posit. Your situation may call for a different solution.

Best wishes,

Mike
_________________
'71 LA Benge 5X Bb
'72 LA Benge D/Eb
'76 Bach CL 229/25A C
‘92 Bach 37 Bb
'98 Getzen 895S Flugelhorn
'00 Bach 184 Cornet
'02 Yamaha 8335RGS
'16 Bach NY 7
'16 XO 1700RS Piccolo
Reeves 41 Rimmed Mouthpieces


Last edited by cbtj51 on Thu Sep 30, 2021 10:19 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
clamjuice
New Member


Joined: 11 Aug 2021
Posts: 3
Location: Queensland, Australia

PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2021 8:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I used a Bach 1D (Screw Rim model) throughout high school and found it to be great for lead or 1st chair trumpet. I even used it in Solo Ensamble with good results. This mouthpiece has a beautiful brilliance and offers lots of flexibility. Give it a try you may find it to be your holy grail.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Mouthpieces All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group