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Crazy Finn
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Dec 2001
Posts: 8333
Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
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 Posted: Mon Sep 27, 2021 5:20 pm Post subject: |
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| F.E. Olds Nut wrote: | | I was told by a tech in Elkhart who used to work for Conn-Selmer that once Selmer Paris brasses were discontinued all the tooling was destroyed, following Conn-Selmer's previous track record. |
Conn-Selmer and Selmer Paris have virtually nothing to do with each other. They are separate companies and have no employees in common.
Selmer USA is a company that was founded by one of the Selmer brothers in the early 1900 to sell their woodwinds in America. They went on to produce their own instruments. They don't own Selmer-Paris.
Selmer Paris is the company founded by the Selmer brothers to make their woodwinds (and later brass) in France. Selmer Paris does use Selmer USA to sell their instruments in America. However, while both companies were started by the Selmer brothers, they aren't affiliated beyond the USA company being a distributor for the Paris one.
It's possible that Selmer Paris destroyed their tooling and whatnot, but such a thing would have nothing to do with Conn-Selmer.
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LA Benge 3X Bb Trumpet
Selmer Radial Bb Trumpet
Yamaha 6335S Bb Trumpet
Besson 709 Bb Trumpet
Bach 184L Bb Cornet
Yamaha 731 Bb Flugelhorn |
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Crazy Finn
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Dec 2001
Posts: 8333
Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
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| Posted: Mon Sep 27, 2021 5:45 pm Post subject: |
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| OldSchoolEuph wrote: | | In 2015 however, the Meinl-Triumph-Adler mega-corp known as Buffet-Crampon acquired Powell, and immediately eliminated Blessing as a competitor to its massive, and market-dominating, division VMI, as Blessing had always been a prolific maker of stencil horns. Selling the name to St. Louis Music was just a bonus. Much like closing Besson and destroying all of the records and tooling from Besson, Boosey, Hawkes and Distin in the process, or the closure of Antoine Courtois, the oldest trumpet maker, Buffet's only interest was in eliminating competition and forcing customers to its VMI/B&S monopoly - basically sentencing more of the musical world to have to endure the products of this former communist collective. |
| yourbrass wrote: | | Sounds like the way Conn-Selmer eliminated competition around 2005 in buying LeBlanc and eliminating Martin, Holton, et al, and closing the Ellkhorn, WI factories. Don’t compete, just buy the competition and shut them down! |
Funny, the foreign maker gets dinged for doing the exact same stuff that the domestic maker does (or would have done) - including destroying tooling and records. At least you're consistent in your predilections....
I agree that this sort of behavior is unfortunate - whether it's losing the tooling or the research and records. The problem is that this is how all corporate entities behave, whether they're based in China, Germany, or the US.
The demise of Courtois, Besson, Boosey, and others and the loss of that tooling and documentation is sad. The same can be said for Olds, Conn, Buescher and others as well.
As far as B&S instruments, I think they're well made and good players. They have models that copy Bach a little more overtly than others, but they're hardly the only ones to do so. Also, I've played a few of their horns that I liked a fair amount more than their Elkhart made equivalents.
_________________
LA Benge 3X Bb Trumpet
Selmer Radial Bb Trumpet
Yamaha 6335S Bb Trumpet
Besson 709 Bb Trumpet
Bach 184L Bb Cornet
Yamaha 731 Bb Flugelhorn |
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Halflip
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Jan 2003
Posts: 1906
Location: WI
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| Posted: Mon Sep 27, 2021 5:54 pm Post subject: |
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| LittleRusty wrote: | | . . . But I am sure that all of the automotive manufacturers only allow publishing details on information that is not trade secret or on which patents have expired. |
Actually, I seem to recall reading that the engineers who developed Studebaker's first V8 engine published a big paper on its development to SAE when the engine was first made available to the public. Given that it was standard practice for auto manufacturers to buy their competitors' products, tear them down, and analyze the heck out of them anyway, not many secrets were considered compromised due to papers published to SAE. And if manufacturers wanted to protect technology that was revealed through publication (or by some other means), they patented it and profited by licensing its use. |
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LittleRusty
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 12656
Location: Gardena, Ca
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| Posted: Mon Sep 27, 2021 6:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Halflip wrote: | | LittleRusty wrote: | | . . . But I am sure that all of the automotive manufacturers only allow publishing details on information that is not trade secret or on which patents have expired. |
Actually, I seem to recall reading that the engineers who developed Studebaker's first V8 engine published a big paper on its development to SAE when the engine was first made available to the public. Given that it was standard practice for auto manufacturers to buy their competitors' products, tear them down, and analyze the heck out of them anyway, not many secrets were considered compromised due to papers published to SAE. And if manufacturers wanted to protect technology that was revealed through publication (or by some other means), they patented it and profited by licensing its use. |
We are drifting off topic. I think I have debated this enough and offer my apologies to the OP.
(but I do reserve the right to change my mind.  ) |
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yourbrass
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Jun 2011
Posts: 3630
Location: Pacifica, CA, USA
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| Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2021 8:51 am Post subject: |
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As of a few years ago, the group that bought Courtois was still making the flugelhorns under that name at a German factory. One came through the shop and it played very well, but the valves were different from the French version and fit loosely, which won’t help the valve action in the long haul.
I believe they discontinued all trumpets and continued to make trombones.
Conn-Selmer continues the Holton name in making Farkas French horns at the Eastlake, OH factory, but I can say from experience in working on them, they ain’t what they used to be.
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ACB MV3C /ACB A1/26 backbore
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Liberty Lips
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Dec 2003
Posts: 979
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| Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2021 8:56 am Post subject: |
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| OldSchoolEuph wrote: | | I dont know for certain, but I would guess that like furniture and fixtures and his father's horn collection sold at fire sale prices with incorrect descriptions on EBay, it was cluttering up a $5,000,000.00+ Industrial property he wanted to unload. |
Mark didn't own the property, nor was it part of Kanstul Musical Instruments. Zig had willed the real estate to his granddaughter, and it was her decision to sell it after Zig died. That is what provoked Mark to liquidate the company. |
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