A question

[Trumpjerele]

a simple question, why don't we do like trombonists and call the notes by their name?
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Notice!!! Amateur musician without formal studies

Trumpet: Yamaha 8310Z
Mouthpiece: the great Yamaha11b4

Sax tenor: Yamaha YTS 23
Mouthpiece: Otto link tone edge

[trickg]

[TrumpetMD]

[trickg]

[TrumpetMD]

[trickg]

[Richard III]

And then there is the double french horn. You play an F part but the main horn in the double is in Bb. The other being in F. So you learn all kinds of new fingerings to do that. Then of course they hand you a part for Eb horn. So new fingerings plus transposing. Ain't music fun?
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Richard

King 1130 Flugabone
King 12C mouthpiece

[supercow216]

I begin to learn trombone just now.

I have been playing without reading for a while, by connecting slide position with valve combination. So playing by ear is alright.

But reading bass clef plus transposing at the same time really hurt my brain. If I see a Bb or F, I instinctively reach for 3rd slide position even if I should not. Or when I see a Eb, my brain switch off
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Oink, oink.

I am still learning!

[JayKosta]

In traditional British Brass Bands I think it's typical for all the instruments (tuba, baritone, t-bone?, alto horn?, trumpet / cornet) to all have the music written in treble clef - and the parts are written as 'transposed' - i.e. Bb cornet, Eb alto horn, Bb tuba, Bb t-bone.

The size of a tenor t-bone makes it a Bb instrument, but it is usual practice for the music to be written in bass clef at concert pitch - so the player needs to know the proper slide positions. That is also the case for euphonium - it's size makes it a Bb instrument.

A music historian might be able to give a better answer, but my guess is that the physical size of the various instruments evolved to provide the most acceptable sound quality, and ergonomics (handling). And the transposing is done to provide good function for reading the music, and fingering.
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Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.

[Wolfgang Winkler]

I think it is because when there were no valves available for trumpets and horns their music was written in C major and a minor always. They were transposing using the tuning loops accordingly. With the valves introduced Bb trumpets and F horns became most common. Trombones were able to play chromatically always. They had no need for being transposing. Baritons, tubas, tenor horns etc came later and are written in different keys depending on the region and tradition. Just my understanding...

[Brassnose]

I’ll try to clear up a little. In general when people learn to play the trumpet they learn that a C is open, a low D is 13, and so on. Technically speaking this is wrong because (thinking concert pitch), the respective notes are Bb and C, when you play open and 13, respectively. The same is true for baritone horns in German oompah bands and British brass bands, I think. So call a note something yet p,as something else when you think concert pitch. That’s why the trumpet is called a transposing instrument.

In contrast, a trombone or tuba player will see a C in the music and also play a concert C, so a Bb tuba player will play 13 and refer to this as a C.

Now, if you live in the part of Germany where I live, there are also trombone choirs (i.e. brass groups associated with a church). These will read the same way a tuba player does, that is, they will say C and refer to the note that is played 13 on a regular Bb trumpet.
_________________
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1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance, Frate, Klier

[delano]

We had that discussion once in Holland and as a former trombone player for 28 years I found it next to impossible to explain that kind of stuff to trumpet players (and probably sax players). There are trumpets in different keys and for that reason the real world chose for a system in which the notation is coupled to the fingering of the instrument, so that you have on ALL trumpets in different keys a C played open. But playing that C, what comes out of the horns differs, it can be a C (C trumpet) , a Bflat (Bflat trumpet) a D (D trumpet) and so on, all written as C. It's easier for the player who plays more than one trumpet, a little more difficult for the arranger. Though a slide trombone is tuned in Bflat it behaves as a C instrument because from a musical theoretical point of view the (slide) trombone is a C instrument.

[falado]

Hi, Simply, when the trombone plays 1st position the notes Bb and F can be played. These are the same notes in concert pitch that a trumpet plays as open, no valves (C and G). Both instruments "sound" concert Bb when played 1st position (slide all the way in) or open (0 valves) on the trumpet. The trombone slide positions greatly predate valve positions on a Bb trumpet and I think everything else has already been explained.

Dave
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Kanstul Flugel
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[kehaulani]

My mind might be a little slow today, but concisely and logically, this makes the most sense to me.
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"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird

Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn

[delano]

[kehaulani]

But if open C on trumpet is a concert Bb, doesn't that automatically imply that the trumpet part has to be transposed?
_________________
"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird

Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn

[dstpt]

[Brassnose]

@kehaulani: yes exactly. I play with people who come from a trombone choir background and read concert pitch. Makes for odd sounds in the orchestra when I play 0 and they play 13 but we mean the same note
_________________
2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance, Frate, Klier

[Trumpjerele]

the question is more than answered. It is a pleasure to read to people with so much knowledge about our instrument.
_________________
Notice!!! Amateur musician without formal studies

Trumpet: Yamaha 8310Z
Mouthpiece: the great Yamaha11b4

Sax tenor: Yamaha YTS 23
Mouthpiece: Otto link tone edge

[delano]

It seems to be too difficult to understand that it’s only a matter of agreement that we have transposing instruments and not a nature thing. We can change tomorrow a Bflat trumpet in a C instrument by changing the notation to concert pitch.