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annvill Veteran Member
Joined: 16 Oct 2020 Posts: 155
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Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2021 9:21 am Post subject: B&S Challenger 3137/1-Bach 180 37 |
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Goodmorning everyone. Someone has experience with B&S Challenger 3137/1 horns (not 2). Have you ever made tests or comparisons with the Bach 180 37? My question is mainly to know which of the two is more brilliant. (Bright). Sorry for my English. |
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trickg Heavyweight Member
Joined: 02 Jan 2002 Posts: 5680 Location: Glen Burnie, Maryland
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Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2021 9:26 am Post subject: Re: B&S Challenger 3137/1-Bach 180 37 |
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annvill wrote: | Goodmorning everyone. Someone has experience with B&S Challenger 3137/1 horns (not 2). Have you ever made tests or comparisons with the Bach 180 37? My question is mainly to know which of the two is more brilliant. (Bright). Sorry for my English. |
I think it would depend on directly comparing two specimens of those two horns to make that determination.
It's always been my understanding that the B&S Challenger is a direct answer to the Bach Strad - the 3137 supposedly compares directly to the Bach - essentially it's a better Bach. Supposedly.
With that in mind, theoretically they are going to be very similar, so one should not be inherently more brilliant than the other.
Of course I could be wrong. I've been wrong before. I'm certain that if I'm off the mark someone will come in and correct me. _________________ Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
- Brasspire Unicorn C
- ACB Doubler
"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP |
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andybharms Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 May 2009 Posts: 633 Location: Boston, MA
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Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2021 9:44 am Post subject: |
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They are okay but do not have suite the ring of the Bach. Fine if you are on a budget and/or can’t hear the difference. _________________ Andrew Harms, DMA
http://www.andrewbharms.com |
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Brent Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Sep 2005 Posts: 1099 Location: St. Paul, MN
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Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2021 12:17 pm Post subject: |
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The one's I've "test drove" played like really good Bach horns, because they're copies of Bach horns. I don't buy the idea that Bach horns are that special. It's a time tested design, and horn makers have successfully copied it. _________________ Brent |
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Vince.Green Veteran Member
Joined: 02 Sep 2004 Posts: 148
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Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2021 1:51 pm Post subject: |
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Hello,
I've owned many Bach 37's and played about 3 years on a B&S (I) fairly recently. The B&S is a great horn. I was using it because it sounded and felt much like the Bach but felt more even and better pitch. The Challenger 3137 (I) feels in-between a standard Bach 37 and a lightweight Bach whereas the (II) feels more the weight of a standard Bach. I loved the horn and would've happily kept playing on it if I wasn't constantly experimenting. It definitely played a touch more compact and a touch crisper than a standard ML 37. |
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annvill Veteran Member
Joined: 16 Oct 2020 Posts: 155
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Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2021 4:42 am Post subject: |
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Vince.Green wrote: | Hello,
I've owned many Bach 37's and played about 3 years on a B&S (I) fairly recently. The B&S is a great horn. I was using it because it sounded and felt much like the Bach but felt more even and better pitch. The Challenger 3137 (I) feels in-between a standard Bach 37 and a lightweight Bach whereas the (II) feels more the weight of a standard Bach. I loved the horn and would've happily kept playing on it if I wasn't constantly experimenting. It definitely played a touch more compact and a touch crisper than a standard ML 37. |
I also had the same impressions. A little brighter than Bach, if you want a darker sound you have to work hard |
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Manuel de los Campos Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Jul 2004 Posts: 654 Location: Amsterdam, the Netherlands
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Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2021 5:53 am Post subject: Re: B&S Challenger 3137/1-Bach 180 37 |
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trickg wrote: |
It's always been my understanding that the B&S Challenger is a direct answer to the Bach Strad - the 3137 supposedly compares directly to the Bach - essentially it's a better Bach. Supposedly.
Of course I could be wrong. I've been wrong before. I'm certain that if I'm off the mark someone will come in and correct me. |
No way the Challenger is essentially a better Bach, I did compare Bach 180/37 to a B&S 3137/1 and could hear why the Stradivarius is like double the price of a Challenger
I am definitly with andybharms:
"They are okay but do not have suite the ring of the Bach. Fine if you are on a budget and/or can’t hear the difference." _________________ Technology alone is a poor substitute for experience. (Richard Sachs) |
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Irving Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Feb 2003 Posts: 1887
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Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2021 6:05 am Post subject: |
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The Challenger has a very light bell, and has a brighter sound than a Bach 37. It offers more resistance than the Bach. It isn't a bad horn. Better than a Bach? I wouldn't go so far as to say that, but if you can get it at a good price, then you could save a lot of money. It is well made. BTW, the parts are NOT interchangeable with a Bach.
On second thought, I once had access to a Bach 72, and when I was comparing it to my Challenger 1, I actually preferred it to the Bach. I have a Bach 37 with a after market lead pipe now, and I prefer the Bach. |
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8914 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2021 7:42 am Post subject: Re: B&S Challenger 3137/1-Bach 180 37 |
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trickg wrote: | It's always been my understanding that the B&S Challenger is a direct answer to the Bach Strad - the 3137 supposedly compares directly to the Bach - essentially it's a better Bach. Supposedly. |
My son and I both like his B&S just fine. But we both like my Bach significantly better. He told me that the Bach just makes everything easier. Understand that I bought his B&S mailorder but I shopped for more than 2 years before selecting this particular Bach. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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OldSchoolEuph Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2012 Posts: 2441
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Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2021 11:13 am Post subject: |
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The Challengers are Bach imitations made in a less material and labor-intensive manner that reduces cost, and alters performance.
The horns are built lighter - partially in actual metal thickness, partially in bracing design and (lack of) trim. This can make them more responsive - easier to speak, easier to misspeak... They also tend toward edge and brightness more than a Bach 37 as a result.
They do not center as tightly as a Bach. This can be good for intonation if you want a little more flexibility, bad for it if you need that help from the horn.
At the end of the day, the sum of the differences is, as was said, a horn without that rich Bach tone and a bit of a different feel (though still somewhat familiar), built far cheaper. _________________ Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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JoeLoeffler Veteran Member
Joined: 20 Sep 2004 Posts: 243
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Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2021 2:54 pm Post subject: |
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I have not seen one made in the past few years, but most of the 3137s that I have experience with do not share the lead pipe construction of the Bach design. They do not have a defined face on the opening of the lead pipe and the control/response/refinement that comes with it. They tend to play ok but are lacking partly because of it. |
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B_Starry Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Jun 2002 Posts: 903 Location: Lake Norman
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Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2021 6:48 pm Post subject: |
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I went back through my notes, and have had 17 Bach and 4 B&S, plus 5 Sonare (which are basically B&S with improvements/modifications).
While there was one "close comparison", in general, I prefer the B&S horns over the Bachs.
I currently own 3 B&S: a Bb trumpet eXquisite, a 3142 Bb cornet, and a 3145 flugelhorn. I also currently own Bach 43 lightweight. It works great in certain big band situations, but otherwise I would choose B&S every day (i.e., in more usual playing situations). If you find a great 43*, it would probably be a great choice vs the 3137 B&S, cost not withstanding. I would say the 3137/1 is "brighter" than a standard 37.
Otherwise, from a "focus on the manufacturer" point of view, why not save a bunch of money to get a comparable instrument? The difference in cost can go to lessons or music. (Or other real life expenses.) _________________ do justly, love mercy, and walk humbly with God |
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OldSchoolEuph Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2012 Posts: 2441
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Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2021 6:53 pm Post subject: |
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As I noted before, the very factors that distinguish the B&S horns from Bach are going to result in one or the other fitting a given individual better. With Bach, you can delve into the options, but in the end, if a B&S horn works for you, then it is the right choice for you. If not, MAYBE a Bach of some form (the option combinations are literally in the hundreds of thousands), or MAYBE, what works best for you is something else still (like my AW Stage466).
There's room for more than one "right answer" _________________ Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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annvill Veteran Member
Joined: 16 Oct 2020 Posts: 155
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Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 9:23 am Post subject: |
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Manuel de los Campos....in 2004 you said that the B&S 3137 1 was better than the Bach 180 37 !!! Have you changed your opinion? |
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Winghorn Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2006 Posts: 2164 Location: Olympia, Washington
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Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 12:20 pm Post subject: |
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Once again we have opinions from posters whose playing abilities and experience levels we know nothing about. Marginally helpful.
An unknown poster says one instrument is better than the other? Instead, why not go on youtube and see what the top players in all disciplines are using and how they sound?
These discussions are fun, but I wouldn't make a horn choice based solely on the opinions expressed on this forum, my own included. |
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Manuel de los Campos Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Jul 2004 Posts: 654 Location: Amsterdam, the Netherlands
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Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 12:46 pm Post subject: |
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annvill wrote: | Manuel de los Campos....in 2004 you said that the B&S 3137 1 was better than the Bach 180 37 !!! Have you changed your opinion? |
Did I
If yes (I do not remember) I must have been under influence of acid because the reason I selled the B&S 3137 was that she couldn't even stand in the shade of my good ol' early Elkhart Bach 180-37.
B&S makes fine instruments but if you want a superb instrument you have to search for other makes. Can be Bach, can be Getzen, can be whatever but you have to keep in mind: You get what you pay for _________________ Technology alone is a poor substitute for experience. (Richard Sachs) |
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LittleRusty Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12664 Location: Gardena, Ca
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Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 4:10 pm Post subject: |
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Out of curiosity I did a search of Manuel’s posts that included 3137 in them. I found one from December 15, 2011 that said:
Quote: | Finally I just want to say that although I've never had the opportunity of playing a B&S horn I've always heard very good things about this brand, and especially I've heard that their 3137, 3138, etc. models |
I wonder if the OP mixed up Manuel’s joined date with the post’s date since seven years later Manuel states he hadn’t played one.
I did find this post from December 2018:
Manuel de los Campos wrote: | Later on a B&S 3137 Challenger I crossed my path and I gave her a try since I red so many hallelujah reviews on the web.
Well, my experience: The B&S 3137 Challenger I is a well constructed horn, an exact copy of the Bach 180-37 but no way my Challenger could match my Bach 180-37! The B&S I tried was just a copy of The Real Thing. I was disappointed in a way, but I was happy in a way too: I found out that there is a reason that a Vincent Bach Stradivarius is twice as expensive like the B&S 3137
My conclusion: If you want the sound and playability of a Bach 180-37 you should man up and go for a Bach 180-37 |
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annvill Veteran Member
Joined: 16 Oct 2020 Posts: 155
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Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2021 11:52 pm Post subject: |
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Manuel nel 2004: (but I have problems with English, maybe I am the one who reads badly)
And how wrong you are! The Challenger I is the 99,9% clone of the Vincent Bach Elkhard 70's 80's Stradivarius 180/37, both in bell size, bore size, trim and appearance. The nickel silver slides, which now doesn't excist on recent build Bachs anymore are still present on the latest B&S mod. 3137.
The playing characteristics from the B&S 3137 are similar to a very good Bach 180/37 as is it soundwise.
This man speaks from experience since I own both the B&S 3137 and a very good Bach 180/37 from the 70's.
So no way to compare the B&S 3137 with an stuffy old rigid Olds Ambassador. B&S mod. 3137 Challenger I is a pro horn. |
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annvill Veteran Member
Joined: 16 Oct 2020 Posts: 155
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Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 12:24 am Post subject: |
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However in the end I managed to try both the B&S and the Bach. The lacquered B&S (not silver) is certainly brighter than the Bach, but it is also more "nervous", more difficult to control, especially on the high notes. More compressed, but less manageable than Bach. The sound is not that similar, I find it quite different. Impossible to confuse them. Personally, I struggle to manage B&S with a Bach 3C. Maybe it takes more time. In any case, they are two very different trumpets. |
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OldSchoolEuph Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2012 Posts: 2441
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Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 1:56 am Post subject: |
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Manuel de los Campos wrote: | I must have been under influence of acid |
maybe not you _________________ Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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