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unable to change pitch


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chucalim
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Location: Le Mans - France

PostPosted: Mon Oct 04, 2021 5:28 am    Post subject: unable to change pitch Reply with quote

Hi,

[please excuse my english, I am french]

I just started the trumpet three weeks ago, and among the usual difficulties, this one puzzles me and my teacher : I am unable to change pitch.

I am not talking about high C or above, but just the first G is out of reach. Sometimes I got it for just a sec with [b]a lot[/b] of pressure and abdominal strength.

For now : I can perform a quite stable first C with the trumpet, and a D with much less stability, and… that's it.

I am taking weekly lessons, and for now my teacher seems to struggle finding a way to explain how to change pitch (I guess this is something natural for her). We tried moving the tongue, adjusting the lips and for now nothing works.
I have the same pb with the mouthpiece only, or just buzzing with the lips. I can't buzz a simple song or C-D-E sequence. When I try to buzz it thinking of the notes, it's just the same buzz getting out (I can't whistle either, I tried a lot when I was a teen but never succeed, don't know if there's a link). I have tested some non-musician friends, and it seems that changing pitch while buzzing is something quite easy for everybody (at least two or three different frequencies, regardless of the right absolute or relative pitches).

I am 42, and I've taken lessons of piano, violin and drums in the past. I like learning and facing a slow learning curve don't bother me (violin was not an effortless experience…). The problem here is that I have absolutely no idea what to do in my mouth or my body to change pitch, therefore no idea what to work on… During my 1-hour car travel to my job, I am buzzing the radio, hoping for something to happen : same pitch-buzz on each note (but a lot of enthusiasm and different notes in my head )

I am considering some kind of anatomic/physiological disability…

Any advice or similar experience ?

thanks a lot
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trickg
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 04, 2021 6:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You're only 3 weeks in. You can't rush or take any shortcuts to embouchure development - it just takes time and practice.

I was 11 when I started playing. That first year I could play a 3rd space C - we also refer to this as "tuning C." For that whole first year I could play up to that C and maybe the D.

The following year we had a piece of sheet music that ended on an E. That note was almost out of reach.

It was in my 3rd year that my range opened up and I could play regularly to G/A. I could get to 2nd ledger C, but it wasn't a note that I could play regularly.

Now consider what I've just told you. It took me YEARS as a beginning player to develop my range. Granted, I was a kid at the time and didn't have the focus and work ethic that an adult can bring to it, but chops development still takes time. At 3 weeks, you've barely scratched the surface.

You shouldn't worry about range yet - it will come. Work instead on developing a good, clean, full sound. Work on developing good clean, crisp and consistent articulation. Work on lip slurs to develop strength. If you do those things, your range will expand in time all by itself.
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deleted_user_7354402
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 04, 2021 7:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have had several students who began the trumpet with this challenge. In general it’s not something to worry about but it is something to be patient with. It is most likely an issue of conceptualizing what needs to happen. In general my suggestion would be to constantly experiment when you get your horn out. (The strength and dexterity to move notes will come over time).
All that being said, here are a couple of things that are worth thinking about or trying.
1. If low C is the only real note coming out and going up is a challenge, It is most likely an issuer that your aperture (lip hole) is too open or relaxed. Some exercises I have students do when they struggle with this are as follows:
a) blow up a decent sized balloon in one breath as much as you can. This serves two purposes, it strengthens your exhale and also forces your lips to create a strong embouchure sound the hope of the balloon you are blowing into.
b) go to a convenience store, fast food place or restaurant that has coffee stir straws. (Small enough to fit through the throat of the mouthpiece). First exercise with the straw is to hold it up with just your lips (no using test to support) and blow through the straw and inhale through your nose. This can help your lips strengthen the shape of your aperture and train them to hold that shape when air is blowing through them. Do this exercise for about 30 seconds to a minute.
c) using the same straw, put the straw into the throat of the mouthpiece and then bring the straw and mouthpiece up to your lips as though you are about to buzz on your mouthpiece. Do the inhale/exhale exercise the same as before to engage the lips. Once is feels “normal” then exhale one more time (strong air) and while the air is moving, pull the straw out of the back of the mouthpiece. Move your air fast enough that you get a good mouthpiece buzz.
Do this exercise a few times and remember to keep your lips strong , as if you are holding the straw still.
d) blow up the balloon a couple more times to get your air faster again.
e) put the mouthpiece back in the trumpet and try to play notes with the same aperture focus that the straw gave but with the strung air of blowing up the balloon.

I know people might complain about the balloon because you really don’t need air to move that hard to really play the trumpet but for the cost of a balloon and a coffee straw, you can do breathing exercises and aperture exercises.
It may take 3-4 weeks for your brain to conceptualize how to play higher notes and lower notes and that’s okay. The routine I spelled out only takes about 5 minutes. I would try doing this 3-5 times a day until things start to click. The rest of your practice time, focus on something else, maybe do some tonguing exercises of different rhythms on one pitch. Do the rhythm on C then do the same rhythm on D. Who cares if it’s unstable, you will figure it out.
Then do some basic trill exercises. CBCBCBC or DCDCD, DEDED…. and so on. Try not to tire yourself out to the point that you can’t play anymore. But I would suggest practicing 3tines a day for no more than 15 minutes until your body makes sense of it.
I will say, of the three students I had that I can remember with this problem, They only needed the balloon and straw for about 3 weeks. Once things clicked, they all were playing scales up to A above the staff within 3 months, with good sounds for their ability level. ie. The notes were relatively in tune, stable, and a decent amount of tone.
Anyway, I hope this idea helps. If it’s confusing, maybe show this idea to your teacher and she might be able to find a way to guide you through these exercises. Have fun
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trickg
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 04, 2021 8:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think maybe I misunderstood the initial question.

It sounds like you are able to play low C, D, E, but cannot seem to break to the next higher partial. I thought you were struggling to get to the G on top of the staff.

Don't worry about it. Just keep working those low notes. Do a lot of playing the notes you can - should be 1st line E down to low F#, although you may not be able to go that low - that takes chops development too.

Just keep playing long tones, and work on articulation and fingering for what you can play. It's going to be a boring couple of weeks, but if you keep working those long tones, and working to improve your sound and articulation, before you know it, your chops will be able to break up to the next partial.
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chucalim
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 04, 2021 8:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

WOW !


@trickg
ahah, I understood that you misunderstood in your first comment.
I'm just stuck to the low C ! I have in mind that this new adventure will take time and reaching the 3rd space C this first year would be enough for sure

@dcstott
I will try this this evening and discuss it with my teacher. Hopefully the click as you said will happen eventually.

Thanks a lot for your time and your tips, first time on a forum I got such extended and quick replies.
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trickg
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 04, 2021 8:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

chucalim wrote:
WOW !


@trickg
ahah, I understood that you misunderstood in your first comment.
I'm just stuck to the low C ! I have in mind that this new adventure will take time and reaching the 3rd space C this first year would be enough for sure

@dcstott
I will try this this evening and discuss it with my teacher. Hopefully the click as you said will happen eventually.

Thanks a lot for your time and your tips, first time on a forum I got such extended and quick replies.

I think you'll get it before the first year is out.

You might also try to do some mouthpiece buzzing exercises. Another one you can try is to remove the tuning slide, and do some leadpipe buzzing exercises. In fact, try the leadpipe buzzing first - if your chops aren't focused, you won't be able to get a buzz going on it. If you can't get the leadpipe to buzz, go to the mouthpiece by itself. Do those as a warmup before working with the horn as a whole.

While I don't particularly care for buzzing for me, some people swear by both mouthpiece buzzing and leadpipe buzzing. Keep in mind it's a chops training tool - you need the whole horn to make music.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 04, 2021 9:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow. Evidently the above posts came in before I posted mine, so some of the comments might be redundant. Nevertheless, I'll leave them here. Maybe there's something them you can use.

If I understand correctly, I would say that if you can't go from Low C to Low E, something's fundamentally wrong.

First, and I'm trying to be respectful, are you sure you have the right teacher? There will always be exceptions, but I can't understand your not being able to do this if you have a suitable teacher.

Aside from that, in addition to Patrick's suggestion, do you have the proper air support and consistent air flow? Range is not only about embouchure muscles but about the proper use of air.

Maybe one thing you can try, and I'd go it with open tones (C-G), is to blow like the sudden burst of air when you cough. That is "C" (blow/cough) - "G".

If that proves impossible at the start, go lower, that is push Valve Two and play "B" to "F#", maybe even push Valve One Bb to F. I wouldn't go lower or you'll probably open your embouchure too much. The point is to get the feel of a "huff" between notes. You can refine that later.

This may sound a little harsh (or trite to TH Forum members) but I'd really check on that teacher. I just have no experience with a competent teacher who couldn't, in person, solve this.

Good luck.
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 04, 2021 9:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I suggest that you begin by just 'humming' the notes - no blowing or buzzing, just 'hum' some easy tunes.

While you are doing that, be aware of how your mouth, lip, tongue, etc. FEEL as the notes change. The feeling when playing the trumpet is different, but there must be a change between the feeling of different notes. Keep practicing humming until you become aware of the changes in feeling.

After you have gained some skill at humming, then try whistling - whistling also needs for there to be a feeling of your lips MAKING the sound and the feeling changing for different notes. When I whistle, I keep my tongue against the inside of my lower teeth and pushed forward and held low against the bottom of my mouth.

With trumpet (and all other brass instruments), YOU must 'make the note' with your lips.
edit: additional information, when playing the instrument, you produce the sound at the mouthpiece - the trumpet only 'organizes' the sound that you have made and projects the sound out through the bell. Your ability to produce different notes depends on you being able to make the lip adjustments that are necessary to make the pitch of the different notes.

Carefully WATCH how your teacher (or another player) changes from one note to the next - there will be slight changes of the lips, cheeks, and jaw.
Explaining how it is done is difficult, but if you can SEE the changes being made, that will help you make similar adjustments.
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Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.


Last edited by JayKosta on Mon Oct 04, 2021 11:32 am; edited 1 time in total
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 04, 2021 10:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stop buzzing. You are setting yourself up for high-effort and low-efficiency.

You likely are already maxing out your strength on the low C and that is the problem.

Again; STOP BUZZING.

Buzzing is NOT for beginners.
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trickg
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 04, 2021 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When it comes to stuff like this, I have to be honest and say that I really can't relate. I switched to cornet/trumpet from saxophone - we didn't have a lot of money growing up, so we traded my sax toward the purchase price of a new trumpet for my older sister at a music store that was roughly 1 hour drive away in another town.

On day 1, hour 1, I learned a one-octave Bb concert scale, one octave up and down, and "Mary Had a Little Lamb," starting on A. My sister taught me while we were sitting in the very back of the family station wagon - a big 1974 Chevy Caprice Classic - on the way home.

Gotta love those old Chevy wagons! (This is almost exactly the car we had, only ours was burgundy red with beige vinyl interior that was ice ice cold in winter months!)


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Voltrane
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 04, 2021 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

3 Weeks but how many lessons? Who is the teacher and where is he teaching?
In trumpet playing, for a beginner 3 weeks are nothing.
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delano
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 04, 2021 11:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You're spoiling the party Voltrane.
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 04, 2021 11:36 am    Post subject: Re: unable to change pitch Reply with quote

chucalim wrote:
...
I just started the trumpet three weeks ago,
...
I am taking weekly lessons, ...

_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
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Billy B
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 04, 2021 11:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kalijah wrote:
Stop buzzing. You are setting yourself up for high-effort and low-efficiency.

You likely are already maxing out your strength on the low C and that is the problem.

Again; STOP BUZZING.

Buzzing is NOT for beginners.

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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 04, 2021 11:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is not a criticism, just wondering why n one has agreed that playing a middle G would be a problem after three weeks of playing. Have your experiences been different than mine?
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Billy B
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 04, 2021 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxTb2gEaTU4
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Billy B
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 04, 2021 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=16539
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Billy B
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 04, 2021 11:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JayKosta wrote:
I suggest that you begin by just 'humming' the notes - no blowing or buzzing, just 'hum' some easy tunes.

While you are doing that, be aware of how your mouth, lip, tongue, etc. FEEL as the notes change. The feeling when playing the trumpet is different, but there must be a change between the feeling of different notes. Keep practicing humming until you become aware of the changes in feeling.

After you have gained some skill at humming, then try whistling - whistling also needs for there to be a feeling of your lips MAKING the sound and the feeling changing for different notes. When I whistle, I keep my tongue against the inside of my lower teeth and pushed forward and held low against the bottom of my mouth.

With trumpet (and all other brass instruments), YOU must 'make the note' with your lips.
edit: additional information, when playing the instrument, you produce the sound at the mouthpiece - the trumpet only 'organizes' the sound that you have made and projects the sound out through the bell. Your ability to produce different notes depends on you being able to make the lip adjustments that are necessary to make the pitch of the different notes.

Carefully WATCH how your teacher (or another player) changes from one note to the next - there will be slight changes of the lips, cheeks, and jaw.
Explaining how it is done is difficult, but if you can SEE the changes being made, that will help you make similar adjustments.



Are you a teacher or do you just play one on TH?
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delano
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 04, 2021 12:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr. JK just likes to post.
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trickg
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 04, 2021 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
This is not a criticism, just wondering why n one has agreed that playing a middle G would be a problem after three weeks of playing. Have your experiences been different than mine?

I think it's a different challenge to get going for some folks than for others. It seems odd to me because I never had those challenges - I had a full octave and the ability to play a whole scale on day 1. When I was in entry-level band, 2nd line G was the starting note for everyone - I don't think the method books even considered that a student wouldn't be able to achieve that note.
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