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Schilke teaching lineage



 
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2021 7:12 pm    Post subject: Schilke teaching lineage Reply with quote

I've been following the Stevens/Schlossberg thread and it made me curious about my own “lineage”. Of course as time went on there have been many influences, but I'm curious about my initial years.

I've done some homework but it seems to be centered on his trumpet designing and not much on his playing and teaching.

My main teacher from Jr. H.S. Thru college was a Schilke protégé. I don't know who Shilke would've studied with. Any guesses?
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2021 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wikipedia:
Schilke studied for a year at the Brussels Conservatory in Belgium and then moved to Chicago at age 18. Schilke continued his studies at the University of Chicago and Northwestern University while playing professionally. As a result of his childhood activities in the Holton plant as well as additional trade school studies, he was a skilled tool and die craftsman and dabbled in both firearms and brass instrument making. During this time, he was a student of the principal trumpet in the Chicago Symphony Orchestra, Edward Llewellyn.[1]
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2021 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, I read that, thank you. Llewellyn. I don't know how I missed that.

To that end, then, would that reflect also an influence of the "Chicago School"? I was taught a lot of things that seemed to fall into the philosophies of Jacobs, Cichowicz et al.
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2021 3:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A lot about who studied with whom has been lost to time, and these guys tended to seek out knowledge in ways we don’t today outside of the normal student-teacher relationship. Family and friendship appears to have been at least as, if not a more, important dynamic.

James Llewellyn was trained as a virtuoso cornetist, I am not sure by whom, and made the transition to trumpet, mainly as another way put food on the table. (Vincent Bach would do the same in 1914, never actually studying with anyone – unless you count mentoring by Heim for a few months) He served as Principal 2nd trumpet of the CSO 1902-1907.

His son Edward Llewellyn then followed that model, learning at least in part from his father, and in 1904, during his father’s CSO tenure, Edward toured on cornet and played an astounding 76 solo performances at the 1904 World’s Fair. He then held the position of principal trumpet in the CSO 1912-1933. During that time, he had many students, the most notable as far as the “Chicago School” being Benge and Schilke.

Elden Benge began like the Llewellyns as a cornetist. It appears his primary influences were his teachers in school, as he was fairly accomplished his last couple of years in high school after a move from Iowa to California. Five years after leaving high school, he was playing principal trumpet in the Detroit Symphony in 1928, where Heim had been half a decade earlier when Benge first left home. It is unclear if Heim was an influence other than as someone to emulate, but Benge likely studied with someone in the Midwest before 1928. He then became a student of Edward Llewellyn around that time.

The year Benge landed the DSO seat, Renold Schilke returned from his year in Belgium at age 18. It is likely that they first met as students of Llewellyn. They were Chicago neighbors it seems even before 1933, and Benge studied instrument making with Schilke. It would be reasonable that as students of the same trumpet teacher, they likely worked on technique and other aspects of playing together as well – making each an influence on the other.

Benge moved from the DSO to the CSO in 1933, replacing Llewellyn. By this time, Schilke had been building Llewellyn models by hand at Holton for Llewellyn, himself and perhaps others with distinctive engraving under the gold plating. He also was subbing with the CSO. In 1938, as Schilke finished up his work at Martin on the original Handcraft Committee, Benge had to leave Chicago for Burbank as his arthritis was crippling him. Schilke then assumed the CSO principal position, and one presumes the co-mentoring came to an end (though on the design side they remained in close, collaborative, and one may imagine slightly competitive, contact).

By 1960, Schilke had one other influence: Byron Autrey. By having Byron come to Chicago to research together, Schilke also gained a new colleague to discuss playing with, as the two each went through hours of daily practice in their respective workshops within easy earshot of one another - and were not above poking a little fun at the other's struggles.
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Christian K. Peters
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2021 8:18 am    Post subject: Schilke teaching lineage Reply with quote

Hello all,
Somewhere in talking about teachers, Herbert Clarke had to have some influence in the Chicago school. He seemed to be all over the midwest and Canada during the early 20th century. I have forgotten much of what I once knew...
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2021 8:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fascinating. Thanks.

Could I assume, then, that the Chicago School philosophy -particularly its exercises- might have been developed by a younger generation of players?

Of course that doesn't mean that Schilke and his generation wouldn't have some cross-pollination with the younger, but that Schilke's teaching may have preceded the Chicago School, which had not yet congealed?
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2021 8:23 am    Post subject: Re: Schilke teaching lineage Reply with quote

Christian K. Peters wrote:
Hello all,
Somewhere in talking about teachers, Herbert Clarke had to have some influence in the Chicago school. He seemed to be all over the midwest and Canada during the early 20th century. I have forgotten much of what I once knew...


Well he was the one who wrote to Benge to stick with cornet because trumpet was going no where - that it was unfit to carry a melody of any type, and was suited only to "Jaz" which was "nearest the Devil" in his estimation...
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2021 8:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
Fascinating. Thanks.

Could I assume, then, that the Chicago School philosophy -particularly its exercises- might have been developed by a younger generation of players?

Of course that doesn't mean that Schilke and his generation wouldn't have some cross-pollination with the younger, but that Schilke's teaching may have preceded the Chicago School, which had not yet congealed?


Personally, I think the "Chicago School" concept has evolved.

The CSO came to have a unique trumpet sound with Benge and Schilke. I think we have to attribute that in part to Llewellyn, and heavily to the fact that they all played modified F.Besson's (though Byron had Llewellyn's orchestral Besson for a while and said it was "half Conn"). The initial Chicago sound was driven by that French tonal concept, and some of Bach's early horns were as well - he even imported brass from the same foundry at one point. None the less, the famous Bach Chicago horns and Herseth shifted that tonal concept not only with more Bach core, but by being C trumpets. Still, a lingering aspect of that brighter clearer French sound remains in the Chicago tonal concept (which Yamaha has been redefining again in this century).
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2021 9:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bing! (light bulb comes on). So, is that why these orchestral players' horns (Benge, Schilke) were brighter than Bachs? Not because of the influence of commercial sound concepts, but because of a brighter orchestral horn concept?
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2021 10:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
Bing! (light bulb comes on). So, is that why these orchestral players' horns (Benge, Schilke) were brighter than Bachs? Not because of the influence of commercial sound concepts, but because of a brighter orchestral horn concept?


Looking at the history of valved orchestral trumpets leading to that, I would say yes.

OK, at first we have 19th c. G trumpets that are far from that concept - but they were a compliment to, not a substitute for, natural trumpets - which tend to be pretty bright.

Then we get. the F.Bessons circa 1880 that catch on.

In the US, Conn emphasizes the orchestral sound of it's trumpet, which they maintain was not a long cornet even though it really was, in 1910, describing that tone as "cutting, piercing, strident" - unfortunately while it was those things, it was not much of an orchestral trumpet, sounding more like something for a sporting event and nothing lie a Besson.

Then in 1911, we get the New Holton Trumpet, the first serious US orchestral trumpet. These are very bright, but have some core to the tone, and get some edge when you push. These caught on with a number of former Besson players, and this was the first trumpet Bach performed on after Heim handed it to him.

After that came the Conn 22B which was a departure from that tonal concept - except for the ones marked "B" on the back with French brass bells. Still, it marked a darkening to American orchestral trumpet tone in 1921.

A decade later, we get Benge, determined to restore (and eventually replace) Bessons in order to preserve that French orchestral sound he subscribed to. Bach meanwhile stumbled across "Bach core" and drifted away from the French sound, occasionally returning to it in small batches as an option.

This then came together at Herseth and the Chicago Bach Cs. C trumpets being generally brighter due to the construction of the horn, this cemented an orchestral sound concept, linked to Chicago, where that concept endured. However, in Philadelphia and New York, the trend started by Conn matured and we get a darker concept of orchestral sound in contrast. That split that survives in whole or in part depending on the section, to today.

So yes, to me at least, it is all about orchestral sound concept - and that seems to always be in flux.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2021 11:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Man, Ron, really interesting. Thank you.
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coraltrpt
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2021 11:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In Ed Tarr's book, "East Meets West" on pg 231 he mentions that Max Schlossberg was one of Schilke's teachers. I'm not sure if this was mentioned above, or if you were asking something a little different. My apologies if this is redundant. His book has been a wonderful resource.

"Max Schlossberg became the master teacher of his time. Virtually all the professional players of the following generation studied with him at one time or another. The list includes such leading players as Sol Caston (1901-1970), [...]; Renold Schilke (1910-82), section member and first trumpeter of the Chicago SO [...]" (East Meets West, pg 231).

He also writes briefly about Schlossberg's studies with August Marquardt and Franz Putthammer at the Russian Musical Society in Moscow.
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Danbassin
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2021 1:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OldSchoolEuph wrote:
A lot about who studied with whom has been lost to time, and these guys tended to seek out knowledge in ways we don’t today outside of the normal student-teacher relationship. Family and friendship appears to have been at least as, if not a more, important dynamic.

James Llewellyn was trained as a virtuoso cornetist, I am not sure by whom, and made the transition to trumpet, mainly as another way put food on the table. (Vincent Bach would do the same in 1914, never actually studying with anyone – unless you count mentoring by Heim for a few months) He served as Principal 2nd trumpet of the CSO 1902-1907.

His son Edward Llewellyn then followed that model, learning at least in part from his father, and in 1904, during his father’s CSO tenure, Edward toured on cornet and played an astounding 76 solo performances at the 1904 World’s Fair. He then held the position of principal trumpet in the CSO 1912-1933. During that time, he had many students, the most notable as far as the “Chicago School” being Benge and Schilke.

Elden Benge began like the Llewellyns as a cornetist. It appears his primary influences were his teachers in school, as he was fairly accomplished his last couple of years in high school after a move from Iowa to California. Five years after leaving high school, he was playing principal trumpet in the Detroit Symphony in 1928, where Heim had been half a decade earlier when Benge first left home. It is unclear if Heim was an influence other than as someone to emulate, but Benge likely studied with someone in the Midwest before 1928. He then became a student of Edward Llewellyn around that time.

The year Benge landed the DSO seat, Renold Schilke returned from his year in Belgium at age 18. It is likely that they first met as students of Llewellyn. They were Chicago neighbors it seems even before 1933, and Benge studied instrument making with Schilke. It would be reasonable that as students of the same trumpet teacher, they likely worked on technique and other aspects of playing together as well – making each an influence on the other.

Benge moved from the DSO to the CSO in 1933, replacing Llewellyn. By this time, Schilke had been building Llewellyn models by hand at Holton for Llewellyn, himself and perhaps others with distinctive engraving under the gold plating. He also was subbing with the CSO. In 1938, as Schilke finished up his work at Martin on the original Handcraft Committee, Benge had to leave Chicago for Burbank as his arthritis was crippling him. Schilke then assumed the CSO principal position, and one presumes the co-mentoring came to an end (though on the design side they remained in close, collaborative, and one may imagine slightly competitive, contact).

By 1960, Schilke had one other influence: Byron Autrey. By having Byron come to Chicago to research together, Schilke also gained a new colleague to discuss playing with, as the two each went through hours of daily practice in their respective workshops within easy earshot of one another - and were not above poking a little fun at the other's struggles.


Thank you for all of this!
-DB
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2021 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Danbassin wrote:
Thank you for all of this!
-DB


I suppose this is where I should plug my book!

I did go into more detail on Benge here actually than I did in the book. Both he and Schilke have periods ahead of their CSO tenure that I wonder who they studied with. If it was Schlossberg in NY, a very plausible theory, it could not have been for long given their Chicago anchors.
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