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Lets talk cornets..


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chef8489
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Location: Asheville nc

PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2021 1:42 pm    Post subject: Lets talk cornets.. Reply with quote

I don't have a lot of experience with cornets. I have played trumpets predominantly my entire music history with a few exceptions of doubling on euphonium and a few other instruments and of course trumpets in other keys. When I was in High school in Texas they did prefer cornets for some reason and my dad did purchase a Bach strad for a short time till he had to take it back.

I am quite fond with the sound of the Shepherds crooks cornets, but I love the the King silver sonic trumpets. How would a king silversonic cornet stack up against a bach 184?

How do American cornets stack up against shepherds crook cornets in general? Can you get the same sound from them or are they more like a trumpet in sound? If I get a cornet I really dont want it to sound like my trumpets as it completely defeats the purpose of a cornet.
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Christian K. Peters
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2021 3:03 pm    Post subject: Let's talk cornets Reply with quote

Hello.
I have played in a brass band for 12 years. We have had a variety of makes. The ones I have been impressed most was a Getzen 3850, Yamaha Neo and a Schilke A1. I play an XA1 and like how it sounds. The other three players are all well trained and play deeper cups. I play a Warburton 5D or 5XD, which is not as funnel shaped as the other players. That really is the key to playing cornet. The other section players play American model cornets without the sheperds crook. The is also a Charlie Butler creation cornet in the section whech also is a fantastic instrument.
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2021 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is unfortunate that we don’t have a dedicated forum for discussing cornets.

Wait! We do.
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chef8489
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Location: Asheville nc

PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2021 3:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Let's talk cornets Reply with quote

Christian K. Peters wrote:
Hello.
I have played in a brass band for 12 years. We have had a variety of makes. The ones I have been impressed most was a Getzen 3850, Yamaha Neo and a Schilke A1. I play an XA1 and like how it sounds. The other three players are all well trained and play deeper cups. I play a Warburton 5D or 5XD, which is not as funnel shaped as the other players. That really is the key to playing cornet. The other section players play American model cornets without the sheperds crook. The is also a Charlie Butler creation cornet in the section whech also is a fantastic instrument.

So how do the American cornets sound compared to the shepherds crook? Do they blend well?
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chef8489
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2021 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LittleRusty wrote:
It is unfortunate that we don’t have a dedicated forum for discussing cornets.

Wait! We do.


That would be under the trumpet skills sub forums, I put this under the horns equipment forum as I am talking equipment and not skills as i felt that quit fit the definition of equipment talk. Pretty sure the "Horns" category covers more than just trumpets..

here is what it says for the description of that section you are referring to...
"No new posts Cornet/Flügelhorn
Talk about the unique abilities/requirement of these instruments.
Moderator trumpetherald"

and horn

"No new posts Horns
Find the best horn for the job
Moderator trumpetherald"
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LittleRusty
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Joined: 11 Aug 2004
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2021 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

chef8489 wrote:
LittleRusty wrote:
It is unfortunate that we don’t have a dedicated forum for discussing cornets.

Wait! We do.


That would be under the trumpet skills sub forums, I put this under the horns equipment forum as I am talking equipment and not skills as i felt that quit fit the definition of equipment talk. Pretty sure the "Horns" category covers more than just trumpets..

here is what it says for the description of that section you are referring to...
"No new posts Cornet/Flügelhorn
Talk about the unique abilities/requirement of these instruments.
Moderator trumpetherald"

and horn

"No new posts Horns
Find the best horn for the job
Moderator trumpetherald"

Personally I think comparing and contrasting one category of cornets to another clearly falls into talking about the unique abilities of cornets.

However, it really doesn’t matter what I think. At the end of the day only Todd and the moderator’s opinions matter. If they feel motivated to intercede we will know what the “official” stance is, rather than some random yahoo like me.

I do commend you for thinking about where to post. Many, and some have come right out and stated so, simply post to the horns forum because it is the most viewed.

Peace.
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chef8489
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2021 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LittleRusty wrote:
chef8489 wrote:
LittleRusty wrote:
It is unfortunate that we don’t have a dedicated forum for discussing cornets.

Wait! We do.


That would be under the trumpet skills sub forums, I put this under the horns equipment forum as I am talking equipment and not skills as i felt that quit fit the definition of equipment talk. Pretty sure the "Horns" category covers more than just trumpets..

here is what it says for the description of that section you are referring to...
"No new posts Cornet/Flügelhorn
Talk about the unique abilities/requirement of these instruments.
Moderator trumpetherald"

and horn

"No new posts Horns
Find the best horn for the job
Moderator trumpetherald"

Personally I think comparing and contrasting one category of cornets to another clearly falls into talking about the unique abilities of cornets.

However, it really doesn’t matter what I think. At the end of the day only Todd and the moderator’s opinions matter. If they feel motivated to intercede we will know what the “official” stance is, rather than some random yahoo like me.

I do commend you for thinking about where to post. Many, and some have come right out and stated so, simply post to the horns forum because it is the most viewed.

Peace.

No worries. I want to get s cornet eventually and just torn on what I want. I want it to sound like a British cornet, but I love king silver bells. I really want a King Master silver sonic, but worried it will sound more like a trumpet and won't have the classic cornet characteristics to set it apart from my trumpets.
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H.N. WHITE King Super 20 Symphony Silversonic, Bach 37, King 2055t silver flair, King 600,
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Richard III
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2021 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I want to get s cornet eventually and just torn on what I want. I want it to sound like a British cornet, but I love king silver bells. I really want a King Master silver sonic, but worried it will sound more like a trumpet and won't have the classic cornet characteristics to set it apart from my trumpets.


Having owned a King with a sterling silver bell, I can say that horn sounded nothing like what you are looking for.

Your question about long cornets sounding trumpet like is correct. Yes, they still sound like cornets but they do lean towards a trumpet sound. To get all the way there, get the shepherd's crook. To my ears, the difference is huge.
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For Sale: Cornets: King Cleveland Superior.
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chef8489
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2021 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Richard III wrote:
Quote:
I want to get s cornet eventually and just torn on what I want. I want it to sound like a British cornet, but I love king silver bells. I really want a King Master silver sonic, but worried it will sound more like a trumpet and won't have the classic cornet characteristics to set it apart from my trumpets.


Having owned a King with a sterling silver bell, I can say that horn sounded nothing like what you are looking for.

Your question about long cornets sounding trumpet like is correct. Yes, they still sound like cornets but they do lean towards a trumpet sound. To get all the way there, get the shepherd's crook. To my ears, the difference is huge.


How did the kings sound?
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Rwwilson
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Joined: 13 Sep 2019
Posts: 51
Location: Austin Texas

PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2021 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a number of American cornets with manufacturing dates that span over 100 years. In my hands the least trumpet like sounding is the oldest one, a 1905 Holton shepherds crook. it almost sounds like a fluegelhorn. This may be because I use the original Holton mouthpieces that are very deep funnels.The type of mouthpiece; deep funnel versus shallow trumpet has a much bigger impact on my sound than does the particular cornet. That is not to say that the various cornets, when played with the same mouthpiece, don't sound different. In order from brightest to darkest sound I rate them: Olds Super, King Silversonic, Bach Strad, Olds Recording, Holton New Proportion.

I often practice with a cornet rather the a trumpet because I like the mellower tone.
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Andy Cooper
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2021 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You might consider how you plan to use the cornet.
Shepherd's crook with a Wick style mouthpiece - in a section of other like cornets - fine.
To use occasionally for solos - fine.

Playing full time In a mixed section with trumpets - no. The problem is feedback. You will have problems hearing yourself - so you will play louder to try to get an edge which just does not work well with a cornet using a deep mouthpiece.

A long model student Japanese Yamaha cornet does not sound like a trumpet. It has a very large bell with a fast bell flare. It is fairly dark, spreads the sound a good bit but is not as sweet as the shepherds crook model. Other long models brands can be a bit trumpety.
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chef8489
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2021 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andy Cooper wrote:
You might consider how you plan to use the cornet.
Shepherd's crook with a Wick style mouthpiece - in a section of other like cornets - fine.
To use occasionally for solos - fine.

Playing full time In a mixed section with trumpets - no. The problem is feedback. You will have problems hearing yourself - so you will play louder to try to get an edge which just does not work well with a cornet using a deep mouthpiece.

A long model student Japanese Yamaha cornet does not sound like a trumpet. It has a very large bell with a fast bell flare. It is fairly dark, spreads the sound a good bit but is not as sweet as the shepherds crook model. Other long models brands can be a bit trumpety.

As I have trumpets I would never try to play a cornet in a mixed section with trumpets unless the piece required trumpet and cornet parts.

Right now I'll just be using it for myself. If I can find a brass band to play with when I feel ready then it will be with them.
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MalinTrumpet
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2021 7:46 pm    Post subject: Cornets Reply with quote

I was surprised when I went to London and saw how many British players were playing Getzen Eternas. I also saw Phil Smith play cornet solos many times and he always had a Getzen.

Just sayin’

LCM
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etc-etc
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2021 10:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

These are great news for Getzen - they make truly fabulous cornets. As does Schilke!
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hibidogrulez
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2021 10:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you're looking for a Brittish brass band sound though, you may want to look for a cornet that facilitates that. The Olds Super cornet I have is very trumpet-like in sound (just a little less edgy), to the point where I feel I might as well use my trumpet with a cornet-style mouthpiece. Imho, the sounds aren't different enough for a generic audience to hear. In contrast, I recently got the chance to play a Courtois cornet (which the owner called 'an actual cornet' ) and that sounded very, very different indeed.
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delano
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 12:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There may be always better instruments bur for real allround cornet use there is IMO no better option than the Getzen Eterna 800. It can do everything and it's also very useful as a practice horn thanks to its extremely good playability and top quality valves.
Remember that there are two versions, a ML in 0.460 bore and a largebore in 0.464.
If you want to stick with the King, do that but they are very bright and not real 'cornetty'.
Mr. Getzen tells us here that the new 800DLX Eterna cornet is even much better than the regular 800 but, though I can understand him and I have no experience with that horn, I still don't believe him, it's simply impossible (though the new one certainly looks spectacular).
So there may be cornets which may be slightly better in some areas, the Eterna combines all the good qualities. This is an Eterna:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elo0SPMo6qg&ab_channel=OleEdvardAntonsen

BTW an older student Yamaha 2310 is also a very good cornet, just a bit brighter but with great sound and projection. Needs a little bit more power.


Last edited by delano on Wed Oct 13, 2021 4:23 am; edited 1 time in total
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Seymor B Fudd
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 2:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Having played in a brass band since 1958, front row since mid sixties I´ve encountered a lot of different cornets. During this long time the sound of the brassband cornets, quite generally, has gone from the rather thin/bright sounding English makes (such as Besson, Imperial, Boosey&Hawkes of the era) to a more "rich" (as in more muffled, deeper, darker, "flugelish") sound. In my opinion this development is due to mainly two factors: 1)cornets have become somewhat more larger bores,2)the introduction of the Wick/Wick related way of making mouthpieces.That is to say deeper, more "flugelish".
Also, US cornets have entered the scene along with, in later times Yamahas. Often having "bigger" sound.
I.e. I played a Getzen Eterna (as Delano points out a terrific horn) - switching to a Getzen Custom (=3850) some 5-7 years ago - and since this year a Yamaha 6330 II (If I had kept the Eterna I don´t think that In weould have replaced it). The Yamaha is a tad brighter, rather cloes to the Eterna but but perhaps a trifle warmer. But that may depend on whom you ask.

I have also played for some time on a Getzen 300 series (long model), on some make without the shepherds crook and they sound more trumpetish, brighter, lacking that dolce round warm sound. The Eterna is brighter than the 3850, but with a fitting not that shallow mouthpiece it still is a very usable horn.
As I also play lead in big bands I can tell that doing that is the opposite of playing front row cornet! Completely different ways of playing; the cornet must be played "cornetty", different kind of attacks, much more singing etc etc.

Conclusion: What kind of cornet depends on the preferred sound; brass band cornet: absolutley shepherds crook, short model, not too bright, suitable mouthpiece. You will have to blend with the other players.
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Rapier232
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 4:56 am    Post subject: Re: Cornets Reply with quote

MalinTrumpet wrote:
I was surprised when I went to London and saw how many British players were playing Getzen Eternas. I also saw Phil Smith play cornet solos many times and he always had a Getzen.

Just sayin’

LCM


Funny, because I’ve played in Brass bands all around the UK, and been to several Brass Band Summer Schools and have never seen a Getzen cornet. Not saying they aren’t used, just that in the nearly 40 years I’ve been in Brass Bands I’ve not seen one.
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Andy Cooper
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 5:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just a thought. Try to find a Yamaha 233 in playable condition. The resistance in these older cornets is about like a 1960's .466 bore Besson. The 233 model should have 2 point valve guides. Replace the plastic valve guides with Xeno brass guides. Align the valves and start the search for an appropriate mouthpiece. The 233 compares well with the professional 6330. I don't feel that the newer student models are as close.

You now have a "reference" cornet to use when trying more expensive models and brands. Useful if you can only try out 1 pro horn at a time and certainly up to the task of 2nd and 3rd parts.
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Richard III
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 5:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

chef8489 wrote:
Richard III wrote:
Quote:
I want to get s cornet eventually and just torn on what I want. I want it to sound like a British cornet, but I love king silver bells. I really want a King Master silver sonic, but worried it will sound more like a trumpet and won't have the classic cornet characteristics to set it apart from my trumpets.


Having owned a King with a sterling silver bell, I can say that horn sounded nothing like what you are looking for.

Your question about long cornets sounding trumpet like is correct. Yes, they still sound like cornets but they do lean towards a trumpet sound. To get all the way there, get the shepherd's crook. To my ears, the difference is huge.


How did the kings sound?


The King cornet with the sterling silver bell sounded nothing like any other cornet I've had, and I have had many. It had a very strong core to the sound. I would say it also lacked warmth. Not particularly bright either, but that doesn't accurately capture the sound. Maybe just calling it a very dense sound. The previous owner told me he played all his cornets with a Holton Heim 2. I tried that and it definitely brightened it up but still it never got to that dixieland sound that I was looking for.
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