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Twin Tube Leadpipes



 
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Brent
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2021 6:53 pm    Post subject: Twin Tube Leadpipes Reply with quote

Curious what others experiences are with horns that utilize a twin tube leadpipe. Recently won this Carol model on Ebay for a steal of a price. I'm super impressed with this trumpet! Not sure if it has anything to do with with leadpipe, but my control in the upper register on this horn is better than any other horn I've had.

https://www.carolbrass.com/show_products.aspx?getId=9A464C339A24D76A&getId1=59C956552B3C38AE&getId2=A88F451FBB60FCEC&getId3=E0D681AE5F3687C6&getId4=CB9CC82C4C7712AF

I've always been impressed with any Carol horn I've tried.
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dstpt
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2021 7:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Twin Tube Leadpipes Reply with quote

Brent wrote:
Curious what others experiences are with horns that utilize a twin tube leadpipe. Recently won this Carol model on Ebay for a steal of a price. I'm super impressed with this trumpet! Not sure if it has anything to do with with leadpipe, but my control in the upper register on this horn is better than any other horn I've had.

https://www.carolbrass.com/show_products.aspx?getId=9A464C339A24D76A&getId1=59C956552B3C38AE&getId2=A88F451FBB60FCEC&getId3=E0D681AE5F3687C6&getId4=CB9CC82C4C7712AF

I've always been impressed with any Carol horn I've tried.

Cool win! Congrats, Brent! We know that any change from what is familiar to us can affect playability, of course. With this horn, could it be the leadpipe design with the twin tube or nickel silver or both...of other combinations in the trumpet? I've always liked the ring I get with nickel silver in the leadpipe. Some of the Eclipse trumpets I have had are a changeable leadpipe design, and the extra thickness alone creates new elements (to my ear) in the tonal profile. Again, congrats!
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Rod Haney
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2021 7:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Twin Tube Leadpipes Reply with quote

Brent wrote:
Curious what others experiences are with horns that utilize a twin tube leadpipe. Recently won this Carol model on Ebay for a steal of a price. I'm super impressed with this trumpet! Not sure if it has anything to do with with leadpipe, but my control in the upper register on this horn is better than any other horn I've had.

https://www.carolbrass.com/show_products.aspx?getId=9A464C339A24D76A&getId1=59C956552B3C38AE&getId2=A88F451FBB60FCEC&getId3=E0D681AE5F3687C6&getId4=CB9CC82C4C7712AF

I've always been impressed with any Carol horn I've tried.


First Im not a horn builder but I would think it had to do with using a smaller thickness tube to move the air vs what you would have to use in keeping the pipe durable. IE a 10 gauge tube inside a protective tube vs a 40-50 gauge tube done as a single pipe?? Just my guess, I think you could probably also vary materials in that way. Depends what the builder is after.???
Rod ??
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HaveTrumpetWillTravel
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2021 9:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think I have two trumpet designs with the twin leadpipe made by Carolbrass: a Fides symphonic and a Mauriat 600. I believe they're yellow brass + nickel brass. Carolbrass I think also uses that design on their Euro models. They feel solid, but I don't think they weigh more than a traditional Bach strad. I think they look really cool but can't tell a major change in blow from a standard weight Carolbrass I have.

Who else does these? A quick search shows Van Laar and Schagerl and Berkeleywind, as well as some vintage Selmers.
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nowave
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2021 6:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had a Selmer Concept TT for a few years, and it was a superb player in every respect. Hard to say what the twin-tube pipe actually did, but I didn’t like the thickness of the pipe and it added to my feeling of the horn being just a little bigger/heavier/more spread than I’m comfortable with.

Note that there are thick leadpipes made from a single piece of material (Taylor, I think), and then there are regular leadpipes and receivers with a sheath on top (Selmer). The Carol is the latter, right? Looks like a nice horn!
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Tony Scodwell
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2021 8:20 am    Post subject: Twin tube leadpipes Reply with quote

I just finished a Scodwell replica of the Conn Vocabell trumpet which had a twin tube design leadpipe. I found some old Conn mouthpiece receivers which were quite long and with a bit of lathe work, made them fit inside the outer tube connecting to my normal leadpipe inside the outer tube. The outer tube ended as the tuning slide receiver and I used a rounded tuning slide crook similar to the old Conn along with the same dimensions as my normal tuning slides.The bell is thinner gauge and has no bead, also similar to the Conn. I decided against making the waterkeys a duplicate of the Conn as they are quite "Flash Gordon-ish" in design and it would've meant more time making them than the entire trumpet. The result was an outstanding trumpet which surprised the heck out of me, so much so that I decided to take it with me playing some concerts in August instead of the horn I have been playing for many years. It was uncanny how it responded and seemingly improved my facility through some passages I was having difficulty playing on my regular horn, like the Harry James solo on "Sing Sing Sing". One slight drawback was the bell is prone to denting a lot more easily than on my normal bells. The thinner gauge along with the annealing certainly made the bell softer. The twin tube leadpipe may be another reason why this horn plays so well and now I have to reverse engineer it to see what I actually did. I can say the old Conn mouthpiece receiver being so long changed the end gap measurement I normally use with my leadpipes and standard receivers. Perhaps there is some "magic" there I wasn't aware of. It certainly is worth repeating however.

Tony Scodwell
www.scodwellusa.com
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kevin_soda
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2021 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's curious that they put the nickel on the outer since the brass is vulnerable to rot...
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mike ansberry
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a Conn 40b Vocabell. It has the twin tube lead pipe. I could be wrong (just ask my wife) but the bell on it seems to me to be quite a bit thicker than my other horns. Also the valve cluster seems to be heavier. This horn seems to throw more sound out the front than my other horns. This also means less feedback behind the horn. But it is a wonderful instrument. I play it with a rock/horn band that plays very loudly. With the 40b I can cut through the sound easily. I sometimes can hear my sound coming back off the back wall louder than my sound in the monitors. I wonder it the weird water keys added mass on the crooks helps with the projection also.

I also had a Super Recording with a twin tube leadpipe. I didn't like it nearly as much as my single tube leadpipe Super Recording.
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JonathanM
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2021 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mike ansberry wrote:
...I could be wrong (just ask my wife)...


This ^^^ is hilarious! Coming from another married man, I must say I wholeheartedly agree. Well said, Mike.

On a more serious note, I've had a few horns with the twin tube leadpipe, and have been really impressed with all of them: The only common denominator in these varied horns was the twin tube leadpipe.
Three of the horns were CarolBrass: a 628, and two 6580 models. To me, the twin tube leadpipe seemed to really zero in on efficiency.
I just got a Taylor Chicago 46 Jazz, it also has the twin tube leadpipe. It's so different (and still new to me) that I haven't yet identified the horns strong points in entirety, but again, the front of the horn seems particularly efficient; and the twin tube leadpipe is certainly a part of this.
I seem to have always enjoyed horns with a somewhat heavier mouthpiece reciever, but that enjoyment is peaked by a good twin tube leadpipe.
Great topic, I'm anxious to see what other's feelings are.
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Jonathan Milam
Trumpets: Schilke B6, Bach Strad 43*, Olds Recording, Benge 4, Taylor Chicago 46 Jazz
Puje: American Belle
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Cornets: Olds Special, Olds Super
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yourbrass
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2021 8:04 am    Post subject: Re: Twin tube leadpipes Reply with quote

Tony Scodwell wrote:
I just finished a Scodwell replica of the Conn Vocabell trumpet which had a twin tube design leadpipe. I found some old Conn mouthpiece receivers which were quite long and with a bit of lathe work, made them fit inside the outer tube connecting to my normal leadpipe inside the outer tube. The outer tube ended as the tuning slide receiver and I used a rounded tuning slide crook similar to the old Conn along with the same dimensions as my normal tuning slides.The bell is thinner gauge and has no bead, also similar to the Conn. I decided against making the waterkeys a duplicate of the Conn as they are quite "Flash Gordon-ish" in design and it would've meant more time making them than the entire trumpet. The result was an outstanding trumpet which surprised the heck out of me, so much so that I decided to take it with me playing some concerts in August instead of the horn I have been playing for many years. It was uncanny how it responded and seemingly improved my facility through some passages I was having difficulty playing on my regular horn, like the Harry James solo on "Sing Sing Sing". One slight drawback was the bell is prone to denting a lot more easily than on my normal bells. The thinner gauge along with the annealing certainly made the bell softer. The twin tube leadpipe may be another reason why this horn plays so well and now I have to reverse engineer it to see what I actually did. I can say the old Conn mouthpiece receiver being so long changed the end gap measurement I normally use with my leadpipes and standard receivers. Perhaps there is some "magic" there I wasn't aware of. It certainly is worth repeating however.

Tony Scodwell
www.scodwellusa.com


@Tony,
The Vocabell's had incredibly thick (.40") rims. I say that because there is no bead, of course. Not only that, but Conn tapered the metal from .250" at the tail-end to the thicker bell flair! Their engineering has yet to be surpassed, I think.
Also, you speak of the receiver being long on the Conn? The old ones I've taken apart are three-piece arrangements; receiver, (short), straight tube covering the receiver, and the leadpipe, which buts up against the receiver within the straight tube.
It's a little different than the Olds, which was another early example of a leadpipe within a sleeve.
Are the Carol Brass leadpipes removable? That would be the Olds design of long ago.
Best,
-Lionel
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