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Professional level trumpets to put on short list


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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hiker74 wrote:
I sent an offer in via email for the Model 72. It sounds really good


As you have seen, what works for each of us can be different. (One poster loves the Olds Recording - of all my Olds trumpets I like it the least. Another with Bach 25, 43, 37 and 72 bells likes the 37 - I put it at the bottom of the same set, preferring a 43 with 72 in second place. Another poster prefers Getzen to Bach generally - everybody's different)

You felt the 72 worked for you, so you made the right choice (for you).
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Ron Berndt
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2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
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Hiker74
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Joined: 25 Jan 2016
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Location: Indianapolis, IN

PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

They have to accept the offer first. Paige’s is in my town so that was going to be my next stop (will probably go anyways) as they have a number of used pro trumpets. My guess is they are higher priced though
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gwood66
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As a comeback player, I dont think you can go wrong with any of the models/brands listed. As long as your wife doesnt mind, the suggestion to play the wife 37 seems like a good one. My experience during my comeback was/is that the equipment you play on while you are establishing your foundation does not matter much as long as it is good condition. Equipment that I didnt think worked for me early in my comeback worked fine later on, mainly because I became more efficient and learned not to overblow. Hope the 72 works out for you if its a good player. Good luck with your comeback.
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cgaiii
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2021 8:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would play as many horns as you can that you find used within your budget.
If you really like Bach and the Bach sound, there are a lot out there.

My favorite Bb trumpet is my Schilke X3L (with the Sandoval modifications). I found it one day when I was just taking an afternoon to try trumpets in Tokyo where there are tons of used instrument shops. I was just having fun trying horns, but when I played this one it was like the horn was made for me. I was so stunned. I had it held for me and came back the next day prepared for a reality check. Same experience, so I bargained and bought the horn. Sure glad I did. I love playing that horn every time I pick it up. It is one of the great pleasures of my musical life.

That does not mean that a Schilke is right for you. The point is that you can find a horn you really like. Perhaps it is the 72. Play a lot of them. Perhaps borrow something until you really get a feel for what you want. (Understand that may change over time.) Someday your horn will come to you or find you.
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Hiker74
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2021 8:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well they didn’t take the offer, so I’m still looking
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chef8489
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2021 8:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hiker74 wrote:
Well they didn’t take the offer, so I’m still looking

That really sucks as the 72 is a great horn.
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Hiker74
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2021 8:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, but I’ve got time and I plan to use it and try some horns. A local dealer has a 72 lightweight from the early 90’s. Thoughts on a lightweight being able to retain the warmth and dark tone of a 72 but offer closer to a 43 sound?
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andybharms
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2021 8:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If having a sound that will work in some specific subset of ensemble isn’t a priority, get a horn that makes you feel like a million bucks. But always remember the secret that those boutique horn makers and super custom sheet metal-clad brick layers don’t want me reminding you, 90% of what makes a trumpet special is the musician, and more specifically the musician’s mind. In my opinion, a truly professional-level instrument is one that gets in the way the least between musician and creating what’s in their head. For an awful lot of people, a simple preowned pro level trumpet from one of the alpha brands off of eBay is a good device to cultivate that inner voice.

TED talk complete!
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chef8489
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2021 8:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hiker74 wrote:
Yeah, but I’ve got time and I plan to use it and try some horns. A local dealer has a 72 lightweight from the early 90’s. Thoughts on a lightweight being able to retain the warmth and dark tone of a 72 but offer closer to a 43 sound?

72 lightweight is a bit brighter than the 72 standard weight bell. Would say play it and see what you think. It's not my cup of tea as I prefer the standard weight 72 bell.
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2021 8:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hiker74 wrote:
Yeah, but I’ve got time and I plan to use it and try some horns. A local dealer has a 72 lightweight from the early 90’s. Thoughts on a lightweight being able to retain the warmth and dark tone of a 72 but offer closer to a 43 sound?


While I am usually the one arguing how equipment does make a big difference, this particular difference can be managed by the player, and by some tweaks such as a heavy mouthpiece to dampen some extra highs. The lightweight 72 is more sensitive to mouthpiece selection, but mostly to player input.

Here is a video by California music teacher Igor Fedorov that I think really shows the range of tonal character a 72 lightweight can produce. (and even though he's using a fairly shallow mouthpiece)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWF7CnJr5ms
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Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com

2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20
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Hiker74
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2021 8:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What are your thoughts on a Schilke B1 from the early 2000’s. There’s one relatively close to me. How is its performance compared to Bach Stradivarius?
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2021 10:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hiker74 wrote:
What are your thoughts on a Schilke B1 from the early 2000’s. There’s one relatively close to me. How is its performance compared to Bach Stradivarius?


Both fine instrumental design concepts - both by designers who started out in the Holton stable. Polar opposites in terms of some key concepts however.

Tonal Concept: Schilke played a F.Besson and Benges (as well as Llewellyn Holtons and HC Committees, but mainly Besson & Benge) before designing the B1 for himself. Besson and Benge trumpets are tonally in the French trumpet bucket (more penetrating, brighter, clearer - lots of sparkle). Bach in his early work had an affinity for the French sound. His early designs, particularly ones using thin French Brass, and some later ones using Besson's brass supplier, were aimed at that sound. However, he quickly evolved that distinctive Bach core tone to his work, and left the French sound behind with the bulk of his instruments.

Responsibility for intonation: The F.Besson's of a century ago utilized a leadpipe taper and tuning slide "D" shape that made for milder centering tendencies (you can feel the pitch center fairly clearly when you are on it, but can bend with relative ease). The Holton instruments Bach and Schilke both initially played utilized a different taper and the flat-front tuning slide we associate with Bach today. This made for extremely strong centering (though it should be understood that Bach did not favor this, and initially used a D radius). Feeling strongly about the radius of the first bend, as Bach grew his wrap height 3 times over the years, it became flatter - prompting the 1" tuning slide pull design at Mt. Vernon which offsets that strong centering tendency. Selmer wanted a normal looking pull, so Bach designed the 180 for them with that full Holton flat front slide - and it centers super-strongly as a result. Not what Bach wanted, but what we associate with his name now. Meanwhile Schilke, as evidenced in his work at Holton and subsequent evolution of the Committee, wanted as much flexibility as possible in bending the pitch - and followed that instinct. Schilke B series trumpets center very loosely, putting all responsibility for intonation on the player not the horn. His research colleague Byron Autrey took this to even more extreme realization in some of his deigns.

So:
Bach = strong warm rich core with very strong centering
Schilke B = brighter clear rich full sound with total flexibility in pitch center
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Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com

2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2021 10:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hiker74 wrote:
What are your thoughts on a Schilke B1 from the early 2000’s. There’s one relatively close to me. How is its performance compared to Bach Stradivarius?

Hiker, I don't verbalise this kind of stuff very well, I guess, but a personal comment. If you don't know, try it yourself. I say that because I've never gotten along well with Strads but own a Schilke B-1 and feel there's a difference.

Of course, they have their iconic sounds but I can't verbalise it better than you playing both and using your own ears.

I will volunteer this, though, that Schilke has a reputation of being on the bright side, but I've played and heard the B-1 played with a sheen but with a darkened core given the appropriate attitude and mouthpiece.

I will add FWIW that the B-1 remained Schilke's personal favourite.
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RL
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2021 12:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Comparing B&S trumpets with chinese horns is rather strange.
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2021 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RL wrote:
Comparing B&S trumpets with chinese horns is rather strange.


Not really. The Buffet-Crampon empire through VMI/B&S makes a wide range of branded and stencil product spanning the range of quality and price. Chinese makers do as well. You would be surprised how little difference in the percentages there actually is.
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Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com

2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2021 1:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Professional level trumpets to put on short list Reply with quote

Hiker74 wrote:
...
I’d prefer to stay away from copies like B&S and Chinese made horns. ...

----------------------------------------
I do not view this as implying that those horns are similar, only that the OP has a preference for what can be viewed as more 'mainline' American 'lineage' horns.
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Hiker74
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2021 4:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Professional level trumpets to put on short list Reply with quote

JayKosta wrote:
Hiker74 wrote:
...
I’d prefer to stay away from copies like B&S and Chinese made horns. ...

----------------------------------------
I do not view this as implying that those horns are similar, only that the OP has a preference for what can be viewed as more 'mainline' American 'lineage' horns.

Correct, I’m not putting B&S down. They are a hand crafted horn made in Germany. I’d just prefer to go with something that was designed by the manufacturer. B&S uses Bach as their template and sells at a better price point.
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Hiker74
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2021 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I keep hearing good things about the Yamaha Xeno. Should I add this to my list to play? Thoughts?
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chef8489
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2021 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hiker74 wrote:
I keep hearing good things about the Yamaha Xeno. Should I add this to my list to play? Thoughts?

Yes.. as well as se Shires if you can find them. I didn't care for the Xenos I tried, but did like the Shires.
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1966 H.N. White King Silver Flair
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2021 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hiker74 wrote:
What are your thoughts on a Schilke B1 from the early 2000’s. There’s one relatively close to me. How is its performance compared to Bach Stradivarius?

Hmm....

Bach - playing: security and stability. Sound - more compact and dense (depends on bell, but generally 37)

Schilke - playing: flexible and responsive. Sound - clarity and a bit transparent.

As Old School Euph said - it's kind of a Besson/Benge/Schilke vs Bach thing.

Hiker74 wrote:
I keep hearing good things about the Yamaha Xeno. Should I add this to my list to play? Thoughts?

Yes. In the times I've played it, it had some of the good characteristics of both. Which side it leans toward probably depends on which side you like more. I play on a Benge quite a bit, and it had some of the flexibility and response that I like on the Benge.
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