Some remarks on the worth of mouthpiece specs

[delano]

Though I am not a fan of using lots of mouthpieces I recently bought a new mouthpiece, a Bach 5 MV.
Why? I use on my rotary a Breslmair G2 but I was looking to give that horn more faces by trying a, what they call, 'commercial' mouthpiece.
So far so good. But of course I tried the 5MV also on my largebore Yamaha.
On my Yamaha I play now for years a Yamaha 14D4, very good mouthpiece, big sound, very easy playing.

But now the specs, the 14D4 and the 5MV have roughly the same rim diameter, 16.80 vs 16.76 mm ( Bach as measured by Jim Fox, Mouthpiece Express).
The 14D4 has a semi-narrow bb (I suppose the Yamaha 'b' bb), a 27 throat, (3.65mm), and a medium deep cup something in between a bowl shape and a funnel shape.
The 5MV has a 25 bb (big, free blowing), a 25 throat, (3.81 mm), and a medium deep, real V-shape cup.
BTW, the gap is the same on both.

So IMO the specs would imply that the 5MV should be very free blowing and the 14D4 should be more 'compressed' with (much) more resistance.
But the reality is the opposite, the 14D4 has substantial less resistance.
So two provisional conclusions: one, you can't figure out things like this by specs. And two, resistance has a lot to do with accoustical characteristics that are not necessarily determined by specs.
(Maybe three: I first have to adapt to the new mouthpiece).

Am I right or is this BS?

BTW, the 14D4 is also louder and broader, the 5MV has a very specific, more centered sound, maybe I'm going to like it, I'm not sure.

[Brassnose]

Although I am not the king of mouthpiece safaris either, I have found that there is one thing that seems to be important for me: the inner diameter should be (as per the respective specs) between 16.5 and ca. 16.7 mm. Everything else (for me) is trial and error.

Over time I have found I like the GR65 sizes and rims, Curry 7 rims and sizes, AR Resonance M sizes, Lotus 3, and JK 5 sizes. Granted, the rims are all different but those dimensions and rim shapes work for me.

Wick and Tilz don’t work, mostly due to uncomfortable rims.

So, very generally speaking, when buying an mp online I check if its diameter is roughly within the size I like. If it’s an eBay buy, I’ll check the rest while playing - in the worst case I’ll sell it again. If it is a new piece from a dealer I only buy from places with a return policy. Looking at specs like backbore type or throat sizes really don’t help me at all predicting sound or playability.

The one other thing I have found is that all these flugel/trumpet hybrids and very deep, flugel-like pieces don’t work for me. The single exception is the Curry TC cup - wonderful piece that I always have in my mp pouch.
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1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance, Frate, Klier

[GeorgeB]

For 12 years I played a Bach New York 10.5C. It did everything I wanted. But 50 years later I made my comeback at the age of 79. A lot of things had changed, including a full upper denture and the 10.5 no longer worked. Through trial and error it came down to an inner size 5 (16.5 ). I had tried three different 5C Bachs and they were mostly smaller than 16.5. I tried Curry and Stork with no luck. I finally ordered an Austin Custom Brass TA1 that is 5ish in size and that is what I now play and will probably play until I drop dead.
So specs didn't help at all in my case. I had to play them to find the right one.
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GeorgeB
1960s King Super 20 Silversonic
2016 Manchester Brass Custom
1938-39 Olds Recording
1942 Buescher 400 Bb trumpet
1952 Selmer Paris 21 B
1999 Conn Vintage One B flat trumpet
2020 Getzen 490 Bb
1962 Conn Victor 5A cornet

[Irving]

The 14D4 has a deep cup similar to a Bach 5B. That will lower the resistance of the mouthpiece quite a bit. I would guess that the Bach 5mv has a shallower cup, medium V right? At the end of the day you need to play the mouthpiece and see how it works. I guess the Bach really is a commercial mouthpiece as described, not really meant for a rotary trumpet.

[zaferis]

I think you're looking a bit at the individual specs as separate elements and forgetting that they all work together and there must be a balance. And that a change in one area of a thousandth of an inch will change the entire inter-reaction. Change one thing, change everything. The unmeasurable are your chops and how you play.

The first and most challenging thing to understand is diameter .. a very tough measurement to make. (at what point on a curved surface do you measure from) The shape of the rim and its transition into the cup is not a standardized point and then in combination with your chops can "feel" and perform significantly differnent as the seal point can be at a different point on those rims, effectively playing and feeling larger or smaller.
i.e. the Curry 3 rims that I play feel bigger than other pieces of the same diameter as spec'd out, and I'm pretty sure allow more lip area to vibrate do to the shape of the rim - where the bite is/the seal that my chops create.

And you are also now comparing quite different mouthpiece designs made by different companies.. the specs won't be as direct a line as you're thinking.
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[JayKosta]

[kehaulani]

Considering all the varying specs, isn't it more useful to just narrow it down to the "stated" diameter, cup shape/depth and bore size you think you're looking for and then let play-testing take it from there?
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[Seymor B Fudd]

I have found that for me the alfa angle is important. How steep the "slope" is from the rim. I.e. the classic Wicks do not work for me because of a too low angle. However I almost never have found comments or "specs" about this variable in the various descriptions.
Yes and how to measure the diameter? Personally I use a thimble, crude as it is it gives me some indication how deep this thimble (or rather how high its rim can be seen) inserts into the mouthpiece.

Another rather obscure variable is the width of the rim. Today I am comfortable with rather rounded rims; too flat stalls my chops, too rounded means less endurance. Must be individually tested - specs usually only hint at this or that. I once tested a Schilke 15A during a gig, stupid yes I know - vibrations just stopped - I was saved by a regular Schilke 14. But from a quick glance they were rather alike. So I agree with Georg B - ain´t nothing gonna beat the personal experience.

The specs commonly provided probably should be looked upon as very wide indications. If someone had told me what Vincent Bach wrote about his VB 1 1/4C (1970) I am quite sure that I never would have bought it. But it served me well both for lead and in concert bands.

And then we have the bore - how to measure? My Schilke 14B is wider (bigger diameter) than my Stork SM VM6 (14,02 versus 16.25) and a trifle deeper (more V-ish) but the sound of the Stork is "greater" (in most respects). Probably due to another bore?

However I think that the discussion GR provides is of great help when it comes to an understanding of the different variables
( https://www.grmouthpieces.com/category-s/271.htm )
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Trumpets:
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[deleted_user_687c31b]

In one of his video’s Jason Harrelson talks about the resistance in round vs square tuning slides. His measurements indicated that the reistance of a square tuning slide was actually less than that of a round one, yet players often reported experiencing the opposite. His theory was that when ‘expected’ resistance is removed, the body ‘compensates’ by adding a different kind of resistance. If that is true (I have no idea if it is) then it could explain why the mouthpiece you’ve been playing for years feels less resistant.

Another factor could be a difference in backbore taper. Are they the same for both mouthpieces? The backbore shape supposedly can have a significant impact on the playability/resistance of a mouthpiece and how it functions in the different registers (for my shallow and regular mouthpieces I use a small and medium AR backbore repectively, and I’ve noticed that swapping them makes a big difference in playability and resistance).

[lipshurt]

There are quite a few problems with comparing “specs” of different mouthpieces from different makers.

With diameter you have to measure at some determined point somewhere just under the inner “bite” curve. That usually means measuring at a certain location down from the highest point of the crown of the rim (usually something around .050) That works as a way to measure and compare diameters, but only is the rim contour is pretty close to the same. If the rim is quite flat, then the .050 location will be farther down below the bite curve and your measurement can be easily .010 smaller even though the actual diameter at at the bite curve is the same.

Then if the bite curve is more rounded on one of the mouthpiece you are measuring it could easily read .010 if the radius (not actually a radius either) drops down below your .050 location. Or if the bite radius is sharp then your reading will skew the opposite way.
So measuring at a specific location down from the high point is a way to get a comparison but there are a lot of caveats that skew the relationship between spec and the feel of the diameter.
Plus the bite sharpness or roundness can really make the measured identical diameters feel a lot different too. By a lot sometimes.

Then you have the shape and size of the outer edge of the rim which can make the whole mouthpiece feel different and play different even if everything esker is the same. So rim contour affects the measured diameter, and also the feel of the diameter. By a lot sometimes. About 75 percent of the time, a measured diameter at a specific location down from the highest point of the rim gives a good clear indication of the sizes you will perceive, that’s becuase 75 percent of all rims are pretty close to each other and close enough where it doesn’t skew the measurement/perception relationship.

Then you have the shoulder of the throat. Here it does not take very much variation AT ALL to make a big difference in the feel of the blow of the mouthpiece. Changing things there by just a little bit really can change the whole mouthpiece. If you open the throat more a couple sizes it changes the shoulder. Sometimes the little corner created by opening the throat works great for a player. Sometimes it needs to rounded off just a bit. There is no “spec” for that area that I’ve ever seen or been able to come up with.

Then the “spec” for backbores is also super vague. The shape and size and insertion depth of the reamer are all mysterious for the most part. You can get two or maybe three backbores sizes from the same reamer by change it the insertion depth. Changing the insertion by about .050 is def a feeling of a “size”. You can use reamers of different shapes, usually having some degree of bulge about 1/3rd of the way from the small end. The amount of bulge there can determine the size, and that amount of bulge also affects centering and slots and intonation of course. And there is no “spec” for that either.

Straight tapers also work nice for backbores, and then you can actually have a “spec “ for that. A taper of around .080 per inch (“normal” would be around .070) makes a nice backbore especially for short shank with large throat type setups. The large throat is in place of the bulge, and the higher rate of taper means the big end will be bigger than normal and the wall will be thin. Works great for certain people and situations. Like I said there can actually be a spec for that , not that many makers give you that spec. Some do though.

Then there is the “alpha angle” or undercut or drop-off from the bite of the rim. That is kind of part of the cup shape but it is something can be altered. Usually by adding more undercut or making a “lower” alpha angle. A tiny alteration there is huge on how the piece works. Basically the most common mouthpiece alteration there is.

Common alterations that can work great are (no order)
Scooping undercut area
Rounding shoulder of throat
Softening bite
Flattening rim
Scooping mouthpiece very slightly deeper keeping the same basic curves
Changing rim contour to match another mouthpiece.
Changing cup shape to match another mouthpiece
Opening throat

Opening backbore is a crapshoot. It’s better to thread your top and be able to experiment with backbores.
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[delano]

I'm going in analyse I think. I thought that my question was not THAT difficult.
But the reactions show different.

For the record, thanks Irving (but I think the 5MV is in fact a tiny bit deeper than the 14D4), JayKosta and for a small part lipshurt (about the shoulder) for at least understanding the question and to give it a try.
Maybe better if I delete my post.
I don't want to create more chaos.

N.B. I have no intention to use the Bach 5MV anymore on my rotary trumpet. My post was only about the results on my Yamaha 6345.

[Irving]

Delano here is another variant of the 5 mv. You have a different model.

https://www.thomann.de/gb/bach_351_trumpet_5mv.htm

[HaveTrumpetWillTravel]

It's frustrating when the description doesn't match reality. It sounds like there are two possibilities:
1. One of the numbers is off, and instead of being a similar mouthpiece, they're quite different.
2. Something about the Bach just doesn't agree with you. Others mention alpha angle, etc., and I don't know how/if that would factor into your experience of pressure, but it's possible.

I have the 5v, which is bigger and more open and fun to play. Most of us also don't play on rotary. Does anyone use Bach mouthpieces on rotary? I accidentally bought a Yamaha rotary mouthpiece once and can vouch that it just felt wrong on my piston trumpets. I also have a JK exclusive which seems somehow off on my piston trumpets. I don't know why. I'm assuming rotaries require a certain type of backbore/throat, but I don't really know what that is.

[Andy Cooper]

Someplace around here I have a set of 2 piece Tottle mouthpieces with #28 throats. I never thought of even the smallest of the Tottle backbores as tight or stuffy yet I find my Denis Wick cornet mouthpiece "stuffy".

1. Trying to figure out if a mouthpiece/trumpet combination is too open or too tight can be a bit tedious since some of the feelings can be the same. If a combination is too open we tend to try to compensate by tightening up to add more resistance.

2. Just because the gap is the same for both mouthpieces does not mean that the gap is optimal for both mouthpieces.

Easy to add more gap to test. Determining if you have too much gap is tough though you might get some insights from your intonation. (Stomvi has some stuff on that.)

[delano]

[delano]

Though my initial post was also a little bit meant as a testcase I'm still disappointed.
In fact I was asking what's special about V-type mouthpieces and I used for that the comparison with my beloved Yamaha 14D4 mouthpiece.

Some here seem to react 100% Pavlov: they see mouthpiece and they start telling what their favorite mouthpiece is, I honestly don't think that can help anybody with anything..
Then you got the wise guys: 'you should not forget that...' , pffff, I am old but still not demented.

OK, I've read thousands of words about how difficult\impossible/unnecessary it is to measure the diameter of a mouthpiece. Well, be happy with it. I think your 0.05 is for freaks, I use mouthpieces in groups, in Bach terms: 1+, 3+, 7+.
That works fine from a player's perspective, as a mouthpiece maker it's indeed different.
So, I think that the Bach 5MV and the Yamaha 14D4 have quite the same diameter and also quite a similar entrance to the cup. The 14D4 is not a real bowl mp like the Bach B cup, it's more slightly V-shaped.
For the other specs: a 25# throat is certainly bigger than a 27#. A Bach 25 bb is certainly bigger than the 'b', the one but tightiest Yamaha bb. And balance is a dialectic thing, more from one, less from the other so stop using that kind of magic.

So back to the Bach 5 MV.
The standard throat for regular weight Bach (and many others) mouthpieces is the 27#. So there must be a reason that the three V type mouthpieces have a 25# throat (the 5SV, MV and V), anybody?
And these mp's also have a bigger bb than regular, a 25 big bb.
I still think it has something to do with the V shape but how?

But there are indeed some differences in de setup of these mouthpieces. The 5MV has a thinner and more rounded rim. That could make it possible that I may feel resistance because I try to compensate something in my embouchure. I don't think so because I also play a Yamaha 14E for cornet and for rotary trumpet and they have quite the same thinner and rounded rim.
Second, like lipshurt said, the 5 MV has a different entrance to the throat, it looks like something that Mark Curry calls a second cup. But it looks me as just a smooth entrance to the throat, not a compressing one.

For the record, like I said before: I don't use the 5MV on my rotary.
And I measured the gap and with both mp's it's between the Warburton marges of 0.100 to 0.150 inches. I thought that should be ok.
The comparison with the the 5V is probably not valid, that mp is much deeper.

About the resistance of the 5MV. It's curious, in the low register this mp is very open, maybe even more than the 14D4. But above E in the staff the resistance is building up, maybe it's made so on purpose, I don't know.

I am very curious about other users of this mouthpiece and their experiences.

[HaveTrumpetWillTravel]

[delano]

Yes, the 5V has a 20# throat, I went too fast.

You can play every mouthpiece on a rotary. Most rotaries are used for classical music so you see there a lot of 'big' mouthpieces.
Some people use a crossover rotary like the Gansch horn. Thomas Gansch uses a Bach 3B megatone on his horn, maybe opened a bit.
Rotary trumpets have a small bore, average 11.2 mm (mine is 11.0) and have a very short leadpipe. Like I said you can use every mouthpiece on these rotaries but if you want the rotary sound you'll need a bigger backbore and often a bigger throat. With a standard mouthpiece the sound of a rotary will be very close to that of a perinet trumpet.

[Irving]

Here is the other one, the commercial one:

https://www.hickeys.com/music/brass/trumpet/accessories/mouthpieces/bach/products/sku108947-bach-commercial-5mv-trumpet-mouthpiece-.php

I thought that you had this one,since you referred to yours as being the commercial model.

[delano]